Bible Study Is HaShem (the Lord) a Rabbi?

[cyberjosh]

I recently submitted a question to an Orthodox Jewish website that has an "Ask the Rabbi" page where you can send inquiries to a Rabbi to answer questions about the Tanak (Old Testament). I crafted my question in a form that is respectful of Jewish conventions of referring to Jehovah/Yahweh as HaShem (but the OT saints obviously used God's holy name so I feel no compulsion under normal circumstances to refer to God as HaShem - but be as a Jew to the Jews 1 Corinthians 9:20). I was reading some commentary in the Jewish Babylonian Talmud recently and noticed that almost every question began with an answer like "Rabbi [name] says in the name of Rabbi [name]", speaking in the name and authority of a preceding Rabbi, and it got me thinking about whether Judaism has ever thought of God as a Rabbi. Below is the inquiry that I sent. If I get a response I will put it here as well.

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Shalom Rabbi,

I was wondering if at any time in Rabbinical Judaism or in the history of Jewish interpretation that HaShem is ever referred to or thought of as a Rabbi? He, after all, is the very giver of the Torah and taught Moses the Torah with His own mouth on Mount Sinai. In the Talmud frequently one Rabbi speaks "in the name of Rabbi [name]", in the authority of another. I wonder if also the Prophets (Nevi'im) might be said in similar manner to be speaking on behalf of the name of HaShem as in Jeremiah 44:16 "The word that you spoke to us in the name of the Lord". Is HaShem a Rabbi over us all?

Todah Rabah

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[cyberjosh]

For us who are Christian it is evident that Jesus was a Rabbi and our Rabboni, but the thrust of the question here is whether or not we can see this as well in the OT as being spoken of the Father himself (whom I believe Yahweh almost always refers to). Can we find evidence of God as a Rabbi in the Old Testament?

 

[Sinthesis]

That seems like an interesting question to be answered from a Jewish point of view. I can't wait for any answer you might get. When they speak in the name or authority of another Rabbi, are they only giving an answer according to that particular Rabbi's school of thought concerning the matter? If so, wouldn't that mean another rabbinical school of thought could give a conflicting answer?

 

[cyberjosh]

That seems like an interesting question to be answered from a Jewish point of view. I can't wait for any answer you might get. When they speak in the name or authority of another Rabbi, are they only giving an answer according to that particular Rabbi's school of thought concerning the matter? If so, wouldn't that mean another rabbinical school of thought could give a conflicting answer?

Exactly. The classic example is of the Rabbis Shammai and Hillel ("friendly rivals"). If I recall right Shammai's rabbinical school is closer to the Christian point of view than Hillel's. I know that is the case in the matter of legitimate grounds for divorce at least. I found an article explaining a little about their schools of thought: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/hillel.html.

Here is an example of what I am referring to in the Babylonian Talmud: http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/bk02.html. There is even one example where it says, "Rabbi Zera said in the name of rabbi Abbahu, who quoted rabbi Johanan". A recursive chain of authority was employed in ancient Judaism.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Josh,
Was it chabad.org?

Generally, with those types of questions they will refer you to a local synagog. I pull a lot of resources from chabad and even email a rabbi I know on occasion, but never for theological discussion, but rather for practical application.

My guess would be that YHVH would be viewed as a Rabbi within the context that the Torah means to guide and teach.

From what I can gather, (and I've got the Ramban commentary on Torah) is that they are aware that God's words (Torah) is limited in it's interpretation by any human, thus they quote from a Rabbi's authority, and not from the authority of God himself when interpreting scripture. I forget exactly, but the Jews had to relearn the Torah after exile from a Hebraic source, and not from the source they used in exile. This is viewed as a pattern for we will all re-learn Torah from God himself when we get to Heaven. I believe a passage in Revelation agrees with this statement.

 

[stovebolts]

Exactly. The classic example is of the Rabbis Shammai and Hillel ("friendly rivals"). If I recall right Shammai's rabbinical school is closer to the Christian point of view than Hillel's. I know that is the case in the case of grounds for divorce at least. I found an article explaining some of their schools of thought: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/hillel.html.

Here is an example of what I refer to in the Babylonian Talmud: http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/bk02.html. There is even one example where it says, "Rabbi Zera said in the name of rabbi Abbahu, who quoted rabbi Johanan". A recursive chain of authority was employed in ancient Judaism.

I've got a book you might really, really enjoy if you want to learn more about the two schools.

Jesus sided with Hillel on every occasion with the exception of divorce, where he sided with Shammai. Chabad.org has some excellent audio's on the two schools as well.

Anyway, I just backspaced about a paragraph on Hillel since I don't want to squirrel your thread lol!

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi Josh,
Was it chabad.org?

Yes, as a matter of fact it was. You hang around there much?

I'll try to get to the rest of your post(s) later. I'm at work now.

God bless,
Josh

 

[stovebolts]

Yes, as a matter of fact it was. You hang around there much?

I'll try to get to the rest of your post(s) later. I'm at work now.

God bless,
Josh

On and off, yes for some time now. Who know's the Torah better than them? So many things point to Jesus in their writings I can't believe they are blinded. But I don't go there to convert, I go there to learn. A lot of good stuff over there imo. Lot's of audio on Hillel, Shemot, The siege of Jerusalem, the afterlife, etc etc etc. Sorry, I'm trying really hard to stay on topic.

 

[jasoncran]

No, jeff doesn't hang around Chassidic jews much. and btw if you are close to a large jewish population there is likely a Chassidic temple nearby. within 40 miles there of my house are two of them. Miami, fl has the biggest chabbad ludidivich temple in the states.

 

[jasoncran]

I have for some time believed that jesus worked very much as a rabbi in teaching the proper torah.

 

[cyberjosh]

I've got a book you might really, really enjoy if you want to learn more about the two schools.

Jesus sided with Hillel on every occasion with the exception of divorce, where he sided with Shammai. Chabad.org has some excellent audio's on the two schools as well.

Anyway, I just backspaced about a paragraph on Hillel since I don't want to squirrel your thread lol!

Interesting. I may put that book on my Amazon wish list. I think I've heard of Telushkin before from radio talk show host Dennis Prager (who is one of my favorite talk show hosts), since he himself is a Jew and has taught on the Torah before.

Sounds like I got it about backwards on the alignment of Christianity to the Shammai school. Thanks for the correction.

 

[cyberjosh]

On and off, yes for some time now. Who know's the Torah better than them? So many things point to Jesus in their writings I can't believe they are blinded. But I don't go there to convert, I go there to learn. A lot of good stuff over there imo. Lot's of audio on Hillel, Shemot, The siege of Jerusalem, the afterlife, etc etc etc. Sorry, I'm trying really hard to stay on topic.

Haha. *Let him off the leash or he'll drool to death trying to get to the bone!* (In this case the bone is a big juicy hard-back bound Ramban commentary).

 

[cyberjosh]

Generally, with those types of questions they will refer you to a local synagog. I pull a lot of resources from chabad and even email a rabbi I know on occasion, but never for theological discussion, but rather for practical application.

Interesting. I guess I'll see if I get a response back.

My guess would be that YHVH would be viewed as a Rabbi within the context that the Torah means to guide and teach.

From what I can gather, (and I've got the Ramban commentary on Torah) is that they are aware that God's words (Torah) is limited in it's interpretation by any human, thus they quote from a Rabbi's authority, and not from the authority of God himself when interpreting scripture. I forget exactly, but the Jews had to relearn the Torah after exile from a Hebraic source, and not from the source they used in exile. This is viewed as a pattern for we will all re-learn Torah from God himself when we get to Heaven. I believe a passage in Revelation agrees with this statement.

I wonder who the earliest "Rabbis" were however. Who did the very first Rabbi draw his authority from? How do the prophets fit in? Jesus even accused the rabbis of killing all the prophets.

Perhaps one early example of how Jews addressed theological questions & appeals to previous authority can be found among the council of the elders in Israel. One of the most interesting examples of this in Scripture (and one of the few examples where you see one book acknowledge the existence of another book - a prophet in this case) is Jeremiah 26:18:

"Then certain of the elders of the land rose up and spoke to all the assembly of the people, saying: “Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying..."

 

[stovebolts]

Interesting. I may put that book on my Amazon wish list. I think I've heard of Telushkin before from radio talk show host Dennis Prager (who is one of my favorite talk show hosts), since he himself is a Jew and has taught on the Torah before.

Sounds like I got it about backwards on the alignment of Christianity to the Shammai school. Thanks for the correction.

It's light, but an excellent read. They even talk about Jesus in a good manner. Hey, Jesus was a Jew and Telushkin gives him due respect. I was actually surprised.

In regard to Shammai and Hillel, they have a rich history. As you may know from history, Herod got rid of the Sanhedrin that wouldn't bend to his rule and appointed his own council. I know that your aware that the Sanhedrin were viewed much like the Supreme court when it came to matters of Torah. However, the new council wasn't versed in Oral Traditions and lacked the wisdom to rule and that's where Hillel came in and rose in authority because of his learning from his Rabbi, who's name escapes me (which in part addresses your OP).

Hillel and Shammai only had three disagreements over Torah, but their students had over 300 disagreements. I've heard it said that boht Hillel and Shammai were seen walking together frequently. Going back to the state of the Sanhedrin, they lacked the oral traditions and wisdom to conclude the matters of disputes between the two houses of study. Often, you hear the teachers of the law ask Jesus what his view is and if you dig behind their questions, it's easy to see that they are asking him, "Who do you side with, Hillel or Shammai?". Jesus sided with Shammai only on the issue of divorce. All else he sided with Hillels and took Hillel's "liberal view" (for the lack of better words) and expanded upon them. Around 350 AD the Sanhedrin once again held the wisdom and oral traditions to assume the role of high court. As such, the Sanhedrin finally ruled on the differences between the two schools and ruled that both were right with the twist that they gave greater credence to Hillel because he always brought up Shammai's view before expressing his own. Personally, I find that very respectable.

You may also know that Hillel was integral to the Pharisee's and as such, I believe he even rose to it's highest authority. Gamiel was Hillel's great grandson and is the one spoken about in Acts and if memory serves me, he also became a follower of Christ. Gamiel also taught the apostle Paul and we know much about him.

Most of what I've written above is from memory and I'm pretty sure my details are correct. I've gleaned most of the above from Jewish audio from Chabad, as well as the book I mentioned earlier and then other studies I've done. I do hope you find some of it useful!

I really want to continue the dialog with you, but please be patient with me. I've been slammed today and you've written much. If I had the time, I'd stick around another hour responding! As itis, I'm late lol! So your in luck lol!

Take care!

 

[jasoncran]

I need to listen chabad. I wonder if I should sneek attack the temples here.lol

 

[cyberjosh]

Okay the Rabbi's reply to my initial inquiry was a simple answer in the negative, saying that he doesn't believe God was ever referred to that way (as a Rabbi).

In that case I assume that thinking of God that way would be new theological territory, at least for Jews.

I asked him a follow-up question:

Me: "Who were considered the first Rabbis in history? Were any of the Patriarchs or Prophets considered Rabbis, or were men not considered Rabbis until after the return from exile in Babylon?

One of the earliest examples that I can find of Jewish men appealing to prior authority or words, like the Rabbis did, are the words of the elders of Israel in Jeremiah 26:18: "Then certain of the elders of the land rose up and spoke to all the assembly of the people, saying: “Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying...". Is there any connection between the Elders and the Rabbis? Your thoughts would be much appreciated."

His reply was:

"The Jewish people always had leaders. Sometimes they were called elders, sometimes prophets, and sometimes judges. The first person to be given the title "rabbi," which literally means "my master," was Rabban Gamliel, a first century Mishnaic sage."

This is interesting. Jason or Jeff, is that right? Was Gamiliel really the first one to actually have the title of Rabbi? The same Gamiliel who taught Paul? If so that would mean Shammai and Hillel were just teachers of the Law and were retroactively (after the fact) called Rabbis in later tradition.

 

[cyberjosh]

Ah, interesting! Hillel was called HIllel the Elder: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder. That means my guess was right, that it was the Elders that later became Rabbis.

Edit: Also from the Wikipedia page on Rabbis - "Rabbi is not an occupation found in the Hebrew Bible, and ancient generations did not employ related titles such as Rabban, Ribbi, or Rab to describe either the Babylonian sages or the sages in Israel. The titles "Rabban" and "Rabbi" are first mentioned in the Mishnah (c. 200 CE). The term was first used for Rabban Gamaliel the elder, Rabban Simeon his son, and Rabban Johanan ben Zakkai, all of whom were patriarchs or presidents of the Sanhedrin. The title "Rabbi" occurs (in Greek transliteration ῥαββί rhabbi) in the books of Matthew, Mark and John in the New Testament, where it is used in reference to "Scribes and Pharisees" as well as to Jesus."

I never knew that, I thought the title Rabbi was taken much earlier than that. Very educational!

 

[jasoncran]

I always felt that it was after the diaspra that it happened.

 

[cyberjosh]

I always felt that it was after the diaspra that it happened.

Which diaspora do you mean? When exactly? The exile of the Northern Kingdom and the later exile of Judah to Babylon could both be considered early examples of a disapora. There was a diaspora in Peter's day and James's day (they were writing to the Churches and Jewish brothers abroad in their Epistles), and then I guess there was another dispora some time after the Roman sack of Jerusalem? Just for clarification. I don't know if "the diaspora" normally refers to a particular one of those.

 

[stovebolts]

I'd be very cautious using Wikipedia. I've found a few mistakes there through the years. For instance, without investigating, I would think the article was to say that the office of president went to the Pharisees, not the Sanhedrin. Hillel was president of the Pharisees and Hillel did not qualify to be part of the Sanhedrin. The article doesn't "smell" right, but I could be off and completely wrong.

This is interesting. Jason or Jeff, is that right? Was Gamiliel really the first one to actually have the title of Rabbi? The same Gamiliel who taught Paul? If so that would mean Shammai and Hillel were just teachers of the Law and were retroactively (after the fact) called Rabbis in later tradition.

It could very well be... I'm curious why Mary calls Jesus Rabbi if this is true. Or perhaps in greek it's simply teacher as expressed in scripture. I don't know enough about the language to really put a finger on it.

As far as elders, we see the elders early on with Moses when he first comes to Egypt to free God's people. After the Red Sea wipes out Pharaoh and his troops, it is said that the Sanhedrin were formed at Elim, right after Marah. (Exodus 15).

Just out of curiosity, what are you finding so fascinating with the word Rabbi?