Is it fair that only those who heard of and believe in Jesus can be saved?

[OzSpen]

In regards to the End, I thought I heard there is only one small island left to tell about the gospel. A missionary tried to reach them a couple years ago and was killed. I could be totally wrong about who in the world has heard ?‍

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

LTD,

From where did you derive that information? It is far from the truth. Wycliffe Bible Translators tell us what's happening with Bible translation around the world:

How many people have access to Scripture in their first language?​

The full Bible is now available in 700 different languages, giving 5.6 billion people access to Scripture in the language they understand best. The New Testament is available in another 1,548 languages, reaching another 786 million people. Selections and stories are available in a further 1,138 other languages, spoken by 470 million people.

How many languages still need translation?​

There are currently 3,969 languages with no Scripture. 171 million people, speaking 2,115 languages, still need translation work to begin.

How many people have no Bible?​

1 in 5 people, speaking 6,665 languages, do not have a full Bible in their first language.

What is the potential impact of work that's underway?​

2,617 languages in 161 countries have begun active translation or preparatory work. Wycliffe and other partner organisations are involved in about three-quarters of this work.

‘If it were necessary to find a single turning point symbolising the movement of Christianity from the North to the South, a good candidate might be the founding of Wycliffe Bible Translators... This organisation has been the most visible promoter of Bible translation in the twentieth century. The translation of the Scriptures, in turn, may be the most enduringly significant feature of the global expansion of Christianity...’
(Turning Points: Decisive Moments in the History of Christianity, Mark A. Noll, Baker Academic, 2000)

Source: These figures are compiled within the Wycliffe Global Alliance.

Oz

 

[LovethroughDove]

LTD,

From where did you derive that information? It is far from the truth. Wycliffe Bible Translators tell us what's happening with Bible translation around the world:


Oz

But has most of the world been told? I feel like it probably has, cause missionaries have gone into the deepest jungles and whatnot and transportation has sped up everything. I'm not saying I know for sure, it just seems possible nowadays.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

I don't think God will hold me accountable well maybe I will get accused by the law but I get a free pass through Jesus. The law given to Moses was not given to me as I am not under the Law given to Moses, and where is there is no law there is no transgression. Even there is sin and I have sinned I don't think it can be held against me if im not under the Law.

Jesus went to the house of Israel and everything he said was before he was risen and under the Law, all I get is the good news and a free pass and always had a free pass. Just like a baby who breaks the law always gets a free pass and never gets arrested and a penalty

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Not fair.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Jesus told his disciples to go preach to all creation but he never said all creation would hear it as far as I know.

He said the gospel would be preached in every nation, and it is.

Is thee any verse that says every single person in the world would have heard of Jesus and had the opportunity to accept him and his free gift.

 

[jmt356]

Does anyone think God is fair in destroying those who reject knowledge as they continue to sin against Him?

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

God is fair in all His righteous judgements that pertains to life and godliness.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2 Peter 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

It's our choice to either reject Him and pay the consequences, or to accept Him and have eternal life with Him.

A person dies without ever hearing of Jesus. He tried to be a good person, but like all people, he was a sinner. He is condemned because he did not have faith in Jesus. Do you think that is fair?

 

[jmt356]

I am just thinking that there is a difference to reject knowingly and to reject from ignorance. Or for the lack of knowledge.

Would God be righteous if someone was to go to hell simply because they didn't know or understand?

I am not sure that a person goes to hell simply because they did not know about Jesus or believe in the resurrection. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). I am not sure how literal this is intended to be. Abraham never met or even knew of Jesus, but he was not sent to hell. Rather, as recounted in Luke 16 in the story of Lazarus the beggar, who was sent to "Abraham's bosom," Abraham was in a place separate and apart from the torments in Hades (Luke 16:23). Abraham commented to the rich man in Hades that
"between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us" (Luke 16:26). As this verse makes clear, there is a great abyss between Hades and the place where Abraham was located. Abraham and Lazarus were in a place of "comfort" (Luke 16:25). It was likely paradise. Yet there is no indication that either Abraham or Lazarus had faith in or knowledge of Jesus and the resurrection. How then did they get to paradise?

While Abraham did not know of Jesus or believe in his resurrection, he had faith in God:
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Perhaps faith in God generally, without necessarily having faith in Jesus and the resurrection, is sufficient for salvation.

 

[stovebolts]

Just to throw this out there...
Jesus said, “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, nobody comes to the Father except through me”.

These words are entrenched within the Old Testament. For example, do a quick search for “The Way” in the OT and the Lords Way becomes apparent.

Anyone who knows “The Way” knows “The Truth” and ”Has Life”.

The way, truth and life existed before creation but as John wrote, The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.

 

[for_his_glory]

A person dies without ever hearing of Jesus. He tried to be a good person, but like all people, he was a sinner. He is condemned because he did not have faith in Jesus. Do you think that is fair?

All I can go by is what God has already said in what is written in the scriptures. Only God knows who are His own.

We are all sinners saved by God's grace, but it is through faith that is Christ Jesus in whom is our salvation by the finished works on the cross. There is no one without excuse as the Gospel is being preached in every nation as God sends His missionaries to every continent on earth. Everyone has a chance to come to Him before the door of salvation is closed forever, but not everyone will listen.

 

[for_his_glory]

Even before the written word it has always been by faith from the time of Adam to present day and forever as God will not be silenced. God's spoken word was before His written word, even before Noah as it repented God that He created man because the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. God did find favor in just one man who had faith in God and kept His commandments. That man was Noah and by His faith he and his family was saved by his faith, Genesis 6:5-8. God gave a new beginning by establishing His covenant with Noah and every generation after him. It was man that chose to reject God and walk away from the covenant as they no longer listened and became stiff-necked in all their ways.

Gen 9:8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
Gen 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

 

[OzSpen]

But has most of the world been told? I feel like it probably has, cause missionaries have gone into the deepest jungles and whatnot and transportation has sped up everything. I'm not saying I know for sure, it just seems possible nowadays.

LTD,

'It just seems possible' is hardly a way to do research. The people in the thick of the battle in translating the Bible know better than you and me as to how many languages are yet to be translated so people hear the Gospel in their own language.

See my post at #81.

Oz

 

[jaybird]

Jaybird wrote:

“IMO the way of Jesus is living the way Jesus lived, following that example, it has nothing to do with what temple you pray at. if people think it means hearing about Jesus and making a proclamation, it also means anyone born outside of Christianity gets punished in hell because of where they were born.”

I disagree with this. Nothing in the Bible suggests that anyone born outside of Christianity gets punished in hell because of where they were born, nor does the Bible suggest that salvation is based on where a person is born. Salvation comes through hearing the Gospel and believing in Jesus:

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Bible does make clear that a person who never hears of Jesus or who hears of Jesus but does not have faith in Him as the Son of God will perish.

I am not aware of any passages that says an innocent person will be punished in hell. where are these passages? there is nothing close to this in the passages you quoted.
"Jesus is the way" means innocent people get punished in hell? how do you get that from that passage?

a person that rejects Jesus is not the same as someone that has never heard of Jesus. you guys keep trying to lump these two things together when they are not even close, not even in the same league.

 

[jmt356]

Because I believe that anyone anywhere can know Him in their hearts.
His sheep hears Him when He is calling on them...

What is the purpose of the Great Commission if anyone can know Jesus in their hearts, regardless of whether the Gospel is known or preached to them? I always understood that Christians were commissioned to spread the Gospel so that unreached people groups could have a chance to know of and accept Jesus. Spreading the Gospel is unnecessary if anyone can know of Jesus in their hearts regardless of the Great Commission.

According to the Joshua Project, there are 100 unreached preacher groups. There are 135,226,000 members of the Muslim Shaikh group in Bangladesh and 85,376,000 in India. The percentage of Christians in the Shaikh group is 0%. Are you suggesting that a member of the Shaikh group has just as much of a chance to believe in Jesus as a member of a Christian western home who was raised learning the Gospel?

If anyone can know of Jesus in their hearts without hearing the Gospel through a preacher, then what is the purpose of Romans 10:14-15, where Paul writes:

Rom 10:14 How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

Paul seems to indicate that it is not possible to believe in Jesus unless a person hears the Gospel through a preacher who is sent.

 

[jmt356]

IMO to reject knowingly and in ignorance are the same thing as they lack knowledge because their hearts have been blinded from the truth as they become lovers of self and have hardened their hearts.

Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephesians 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephesians 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

I am not sure I agree with this. Ephesians is talking about those who are ignorant "due to the hardening of their hearts" (Eph 4:18) and give "themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity" (Eph 4:19). Paul is calling out the Church in Ephesus to come apart from the Gentiles and their ignorance, hardened hearts, insensitivity, sensuality, indulgence, impurity and lust. He is comparing the Ephesians to the Gentiles in Ephesus, near modern day Izmir, Turkey. This is a people that had the Gospel preached to them. If they rejected the Gospel, they did so with knowledge of it. I am referring to unreached people groups, like the Shaikh of Bangladesh and India, who have 0% Christians among them according to the Joshua Project.

 

[Link1983]

What is the purpose of the Great Commission if anyone can know Jesus in their hearts, regardless of whether the Gospel is known or preached to them? I always understood that Christians were commissioned to spread the Gospel so that unreached people groups could have a chance to know of and accept Jesus. Spreading the Gospel is unnecessary if anyone can know of Jesus in their hearts regardless of the Great Commission.

According to the Joshua Project, there are 100 unreached preacher groups. There are 135,226,000 members of the Muslim Shaikh group in Bangladesh and 85,376,000 in India. The percentage of Christians in the Shaikh group is 0%. Are you suggesting that a member of the Shaikh group has just as much of a chance to believe in Jesus as a member of a Christian western home who was raised learning the Gospel?

If anyone can know of Jesus in their hearts without hearing the Gospel through a preacher, then what is the purpose of Romans 10:14-15, where Paul writes:

Rom 10:14 How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

Paul seems to indicate that it is not possible to believe in Jesus unless a person hears the Gospel through a preacher who is sent.

I strongly believe that it is the main purpose of a person who heard about Jesus to spread the word out to everyone who has not yet heard about Jesus!

Just too make that clear!

Yet alot of people live and die never having heard about Jesus.
I believe in a good God!

I don't believe everyone who didn't even get the chance to choose.
That they will get a chance even after they die.
That doesn't make the importance of spreading the word any less important..

Too be simple; I believe in a fair God!
I don't want to speak against the Bible! So I am only saying what I personally think is according to the Word. But I might be wrong..

So I want to always find the answer there If I can.

I like the answer Stovebolts made here.. Jesus is the way and the truth!
This seems to me to be in line with the Bible..

 

[Link1983]

What is the purpose of the Great Commission if anyone can know Jesus in their hearts, regardless of whether the Gospel is known or preached to them? I always understood that Christians were commissioned to spread the Gospel so that unreached people groups could have a chance to know of and accept Jesus. Spreading the Gospel is unnecessary if anyone can know of Jesus in their hearts regardless of the Great Commission.

According to the Joshua Project, there are 100 unreached preacher groups. There are 135,226,000 members of the Muslim Shaikh group in Bangladesh and 85,376,000 in India. The percentage of Christians in the Shaikh group is 0%. Are you suggesting that a member of the Shaikh group has just as much of a chance to believe in Jesus as a member of a Christian western home who was raised learning the Gospel?

If anyone can know of Jesus in their hearts without hearing the Gospel through a preacher, then what is the purpose of Romans 10:14-15, where Paul writes:

Rom 10:14 How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

Paul seems to indicate that it is not possible to believe in Jesus unless a person hears the Gospel through a preacher who is sent.

I think that people can have faith in God and live according to the new commandment, without having heard from the new covenant..
They might get saved by grace of God.
But they won't have benefited from the name of Jesus.
There is definitely a major difference in having heard and not.
Yet doesn't necessarily mean that a person is sent to hell just for not having heard..
Does that seem like a fair God to you?

 

[Link1983]

Just to throw this out there...
Jesus said, “I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, nobody comes to the Father except through me”.

These words are entrenched within the Old Testament. For example, do a quick search for “The Way” in the OT and the Lords Way becomes apparent.

Anyone who knows “The Way” knows “The Truth” and ”Has Life”.

The way, truth and life existed before creation but as John wrote, The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.

I think this is a good thought about salvation.
Acts also speak much about the way!

and he asked for letters [of authority] from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any men or women there belonging to the Way [believers, followers of Jesus the Messiah], men and women alike, he could arrest them and bring them bound [with chains] to Jerusalem.
Acts 9:2 AMP

 

[Link1983]

So Jesus was saying to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you abide in My word [continually obeying My teachings and living in accordance with them, then] you are truly My disciples. And you will know the truth [regarding salvation], and the truth will set you free [from the penalty of sin].” I tell the things that I have seen at My Father’s side [in His very presence]; so you also do the things that you heard from your father.” They answered, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are [truly] Abraham’s children, then do the works of Abraham and follow his example. Whoever is of God and belongs to Him hears [the truth of] God’s words; for this reason you do not hear them: because you are not of God and you are not in fellowship with Him.” I assure you and most solemnly say to you, if anyone keeps My word [by living in accordance with My message] he will indeed never, ever see and experience death.” Your father Abraham [greatly] rejoiced to see My day (My incarnation). He saw it and was delighted.” Jesus replied, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.”
John 8:31‭-‬32‭, ‬38‭-‬39‭, ‬47‭, ‬51‭, ‬56‭, ‬58 AMP

So the the truth of God's word is sufficient for salvation.
Isn't that what it reads?

To be truly set free in this life. I do tho, believe that we are in need of the name..

 

[Link1983]

What is the purpose of the Great Commission if anyone can know Jesus in their hearts, regardless of whether the Gospel is known or preached to them? I always understood that Christians were commissioned to spread the Gospel so that unreached people groups could have a chance to know of and accept Jesus. Spreading the Gospel is unnecessary if anyone can know of Jesus in their hearts regardless of the Great Commission.

According to the Joshua Project, there are 100 unreached preacher groups. There are 135,226,000 members of the Muslim Shaikh group in Bangladesh and 85,376,000 in India. The percentage of Christians in the Shaikh group is 0%. Are you suggesting that a member of the Shaikh group has just as much of a chance to believe in Jesus as a member of a Christian western home who was raised learning the Gospel?

If anyone can know of Jesus in their hearts without hearing the Gospel through a preacher, then what is the purpose of Romans 10:14-15, where Paul writes:

Rom 10:14 How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

Paul seems to indicate that it is not possible to believe in Jesus unless a person hears the Gospel through a preacher who is sent.

Or do you have no regard for the wealth of His kindness and tolerance and patience [in withholding His wrath]? Are you [actually] unaware or ignorant [of the fact] that God’s kindness leads you to repentance [that is, to change your inner self, your old way of thinking—seek His purpose for your life]? He will pay back to each person according to his deeds [justly, as his deeds deserve]: to those who by persistence in doing good seek [unseen but certain heavenly] glory, honor, and immortality, [He will give the gift of] eternal life. But for those who are selfishly ambitious and self-seeking and disobedient to the truth but responsive to wickedness, [there will be] wrath and indignation. For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another]. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law. For it is not those who merely hear the Law [as it is read aloud] who are just or righteous before God, but it is those who [actually] obey the Law who will be justified [pronounced free of the guilt of sin and declared acceptable to Him]. When Gentiles, who do not have the Law [since it was given only to Jews], do instinctively the things the Law requires [guided only by their conscience], they are a law to themselves, though they do not have the Law. They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts; and their conscience [their sense of right and wrong, their moral choices] bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or perhaps defending them on that day when, as my gospel proclaims, God will judge the secrets [all the hidden thoughts and concealed sins] of men through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2:4‭, ‬6‭-‬8‭, ‬11‭-‬16 AMP

Paul makes things perfectly clear here. At least in my opinion

 

[Link1983]

I am not sure that a person goes to hell simply because they did not know about Jesus or believe in the resurrection. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). I am not sure how literal this is intended to be. Abraham never met or even knew of Jesus, but he was not sent to hell. Rather, as recounted in Luke 16 in the story of Lazarus the beggar, who was sent to "Abraham's bosom," Abraham was in a place separate and apart from the torments in Hades (Luke 16:23). Abraham commented to the rich man in Hades that
"between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us" (Luke 16:26). As this verse makes clear, there is a great abyss between Hades and the place where Abraham was located. Abraham and Lazarus were in a place of "comfort" (Luke 16:25). It was likely paradise. Yet there is no indication that either Abraham or Lazarus had faith in or knowledge of Jesus and the resurrection. How then did they get to paradise?

While Abraham did not know of Jesus or believe in his resurrection, he had faith in God:
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Perhaps faith in God generally, without necessarily having faith in Jesus and the resurrection, is sufficient for salvation.

We have to have faith in Jesus to be saved. Or the faith of..
Tho since Jesus only spoke what God spoke.
Belief in God is the same as faith in Jesus.
Sufficient for salvation.
That is what I personally believe is what the Bible teaches.
Tho in hearing and understanding Jesus. We might find all the benefits included in it..
For example that a sick person can and may be healed. To name one of the benefits of Jesus today..