Is Jesus FULLY God & Praying

[Guest]

In this thread, I would like to focus specifically on the word 'FULLY'. Fully means entirely or wholly. ALL of you! So if Jesus was fully God, he wouldn't of had to pray to the Father to raise Lazarus. Saying that Jesus is fully God is foolish of us, and I'll tell you why. When a born again Christian receives the Holy Spirit, he's not receiving ALL of the Father, no. He's receiving only a portion. That portion is called the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not FULLY God, but rather he is the WAY to God.

Yes, Jesus is the only way to God the Father, but scripture never says that Jesus is in fact THE God the Father. Jesus is the intercessor BETWEEN God the Father and humanity. Notice I said between stating two different parties, God the Father and humanity. God the Father isn't the intercessor between himself and humanity, no. Jesus has an entirely separate role to play. God the Father is the creator, and Jesus is the intercessor. Creator/Intercessor/Two different roles. When you pray, do you pray to God the Father or Jesus?

 

[Brother Mike]

Wow, trinity folk is gonna just love this. I'll stick with scriptures...................

In this thread, I would like to focus specifically on the word 'FULLY'. Fully means entirely or wholly. ALL of you! So if Jesus was fully God, he wouldn't of had to pray to the Father to raise Lazarus. Saying that Jesus is fully God is foolish of us, and I'll tell you why. When a born again Christian receives the Holy Spirit, he's not receiving ALL of the Father, no. He's receiving only a portion.

Trinity believes that God is made of 3 parts. Each part is wholly God as seen in the Catholic version and many non Catholic versions. However, Each part is wholly God, all 3 make one God. This makes absolute no sense if you passed 8th grade math. You can have 3x apples but putting them together does not make one apple it is very simple. You can make apple pie though.

However, This would not really not make Jesus fully God, As stated. A father and Son are both fully Human. The Bible does not define what god means as it's generic for the Greek. Theos... Satan is also called god and we are also called god by Jesus.

Jesus has to be fully God, and not just a 1/3 part of a God as trinity assumes or some not fully God as JW or other religions assume. He has to be 100% God. Just not His Father God or part of some god system where he is only 1/3 of a god to make a Whole God. Many have tried to get me to believe that Jesus is a egg yoke.

Paul said this.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

We have many gods in heaven and earth. No wonder if Jesus called us gods and Satan is god of this world. Theos is generic term. Paul said though only One God but recognize two.

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

So God the father who made all things and Jesus Christ by whom were all things made. God creator, God the son which things were created for. Remember that God the Father did call his Son Jesus God, and so did Thomas and John. Jesus is not the creator, His father is, as Paul stated and backed by 3 other scriptures.

So, I may not be a fan of the Trinity, but I fully believe Jesus is the Son of God, Is God, Has always been here, has always been with the Father, is the I am as His Father. I believe it's a Father and Son team That has always been here. I think this goes perfectly in line when Jesus always mentioned His fathers house, His fathers that. Every thing fits perfectly.

Mike.

 

[Guest]

@Brother Mike Jesus is God deity and there is only one God, I agree with you. But why did Jesus pray to the Father for healings. You were confused as to why he did this with Lazarus. Do you think there was a reason.

 

[reba]

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[jasoncran]

@Brother Mike Jesus is God deity and there is only one God, I agree with you. But why did Jesus pray to the Father for healings. You were confused as to why he did this with Lazarus. Do you think there was a reason.

simple to set the example. he lowered himself. jesus was fully human. he did a hunger and thirst.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] ty, i also agree.

 

[Guest]

simple to set the example. he lowered himself. jesus was fully human. he did a hunger and thirst.

Do you have scripture that says he lowered himself.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm. if john 1:1 is correct and that states.

"in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god"

ok the lets look at the beginning
"In the beginning God created heavens and the earth"

which god created given?

the word became flesh and the flesh dwelt amongst men..

 

[jasoncran]

simple to set the example. he lowered himself. jesus was fully human. he did a hunger and thirst.

Do you have scripture that says he lowered himself.

yes I do

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 

[jasoncran]

how does God die?

 

[reba]

As a sacrifice on a Cross

 

[Guest]

uhm. if john 1:1 is correct and that states.

"in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god"

ok the lets look at the beginning
"In the beginning God created heavens and the earth"

which god created given?

the word became flesh and the flesh dwelt amongst men..

Yes it says the word was with GOD, it doesn't say the word was with Jesus and so forth. Yes the word became flesh. How did it become flesh. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Notice it says HE gave, separate from the Son. Scripture doesn't say God gave himself, no. It says he gave his son.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm. if john 1:1 is correct and that states.

"in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god"

ok the lets look at the beginning
"In the beginning God created heavens and the earth"

which god created given?

the word became flesh and the flesh dwelt amongst men..

Yes it says the word was with GOD, it doesn't say the word was with Jesus and so forth. Yes the word became flesh. How did it become flesh. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Notice it says HE gave, separate from the Son. Scripture doesn't say God gave himself, no. It says he gave his son.

you over think this. if jesus isn't god then how can he be worshipped?didnt men worship him? yes they did. john when he saw angels what did they do? don't worship me for I am thy fellow serveant is what they said. yet when jesus appeared in the visions what did john do? fall unto the ground and shook in fear. jesus then lifted him up and never said to him don't worship me.

so therefore jesus must be god. why? because in the torah its written that man shall not worship another angel nor other god

 

[Guest]

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now we're getting somewhere. Awesome scripture my friend. Ok ok, but that begs the question. Why did God call himself son.

 

[Brother Mike]

No matter how many scriptures one can be shown, they won't accept the concept of Father and Son both God, but not a piece of a God or part of some Triune God. To do so they have to look at God in a way they have not been taught. Besides, its the Christan Great mystery, the Trinity Doctrine and in the Doctrine itself it's protected by the Word mystery.

The OP suggest that Jesus may not be God. That is another Theory that is not JW theory or Jesus is a small time deity theory. He is the mediator. So what is to examine. The Word became flesh.

The Word became Flesh:

I mentioned this before about Doctrines. My WOF folk love to say Jesus is the Word of God. His name means the Word in Rev, but Is Jesus the actual word and why would I translate it that way? Lets say I did not have a Trinity Doctrine but translated that passage of scripture without it.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So without the trinity Doctrine in the way, How do I read this. The word made something. In this case flesh and it was tied to Jesus being Begotten of God who was in the bosom of the father.

In all my other understanding of the Word, the Word creates things. The word made tree's, light and every thing else we see. Tree's and fish are not God though. We are begotten of the Word, born of incorruptible seed and each seed produces after it's own Kind. In the image of God but not God the father either.

In this case the Word begotten something else, It made flesh that came among us. That means God had to have spoken something to get Mary Pregnant as Jesus was born of Blood and water, through the Holy Spirit. The Word then was made flesh, and How the Word begotten something.

This does not make Jesus a part of God or the Word part of God, it makes Jesus the Son of God who came for us, and Came fully God like His Father is also God. Here is the scripture.

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

So there is your other witness as you don't take one scripture and make a doctrine out of it. The Word became flesh because by the spoken Word Jesus was begotten by the Word and it came to pass. Not
that Jesus is the literal Word or part of God that is the Word.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Whatever God says comes to pass, in this case Mary becomes pregnant.

With Trinity in the way though, I just make it mean what I want. Jesus is the literal, spiritual and physical Word, a Part of a Triune God. When you compare scriptures as we are told and not take have a scripture but find out How He was begotten of flesh, you find it was something God had spoken and it came to pass.

Jesus is still God though, Just not 1/3 part of a God, but always been with the Father and sent in these Last days for us.

As I said, if you want to believe in "Trinity" that is fine, One God only but you have to come to grips that even those that are firmly believing in this stated that the doctrine is problematic and you just have to have faith that there is but One God. It's a doctrine to be believed by faith. Every doctrine you have to believe by faith.

I do my best to just stick with scriptures and compare others, but it only works to the point of what God has revealed to me, so I am in the dark about a lot of things myself. I understand that fully.

Blessings.........
Mike.

 

[Free]

Wow, trinity folk is gonna just love this. I'll stick with scriptures...................

In this thread, I would like to focus specifically on the word 'FULLY'. Fully means entirely or wholly. ALL of you! So if Jesus was fully God, he wouldn't of had to pray to the Father to raise Lazarus. Saying that Jesus is fully God is foolish of us, and I'll tell you why. When a born again Christian receives the Holy Spirit, he's not receiving ALL of the Father, no. He's receiving only a portion.

Trinity believes that God is made of 3 parts. Each part is wholly God as seen in the Catholic version and many non Catholic versions. However, Each part is wholly God, all 3 make one God. This makes absolute no sense if you passed 8th grade math. You can have 3x apples but putting them together does not make one apple it is very simple. You can make apple pie though.

As I stated in the other thread, math has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is only about what Scripture says.

However, This would not really not make Jesus fully God, As stated. A father and Son are both fully Human. The Bible does not define what god means as it's generic for the Greek. Theos... Satan is also called god and we are also called god by Jesus.

Jesus has to be fully God, and not just a 1/3 part of a God as trinity assumes or some not fully God as JW or other religions assume. He has to be 100% God. Just not His Father God or part of some god system where he is only 1/3 of a god to make a Whole God. Many have tried to get me to believe that Jesus is a egg yoke.

Paul said this.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

We have many gods in heaven and earth. No wonder if Jesus called us gods and Satan is god of this world. Theos is generic term. Paul said though only One God but recognize two.

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

So God the father who made all things and Jesus Christ by whom were all things made. God creator, God the son which things were created for. Remember that God the Father did call his Son Jesus God, and so did Thomas and John. Jesus is not the creator, His father is, as Paul stated and backed by 3 other scriptures.

So, I may not be a fan of the Trinity, but I fully believe Jesus is the Son of God, Is God, Has always been here, has always been with the Father, is the I am as His Father. I believe it's a Father and Son team That has always been here. I think this goes perfectly in line when Jesus always mentioned His fathers house, His fathers that. Every thing fits perfectly.

Mike.

You state the Trinity is false but that Jesus is God, just as the Father is God. That is precisely what the Trinity states. Except that it goes further and acknowledges the Scriptural truth that there is only one God; that there only has ever been and only ever will be one God.

Your position is polytheism which goes against Scripture. You say you'll "stick with Scriptures," but you don't.

 

[Brother Mike]

Free

You state the Trinity is false but that Jesus is God, just as the Father is God. That is precisely what the Trinity states. Except that it goes further and acknowledges the Scriptural truth that there is only one God; that there only has ever been and only ever will be one God.

Your position is polytheism which goes against Scripture. You say you'll "stick with Scriptures," but you don't.

I have already stated Free that those that believe in One God can not see it. I can refute trinity at every level and every scripture you bring up in a reasonable and clear way with many supporting scriptures. That is pointless however because you have your labels such as Polytheism and you don't have the ability to see anything but one God.

However that does not mean I don't stick with scriptures. I am aware God said there are no other Gods, went on to say he has not known any other or made any other. This makes sense as Jesus is never listed as creator but by whom all things were made for. Also Jesus does not have a creation date. There is only One God the Father, and Jesus said that many times calling it His Father's house, and I only do what I hear my father say.
However, Jesus was called God by Thomas, God the Father Himself and called God by John. That makes Him God. The Apostles always mentioned God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, not God the father and Saviour in one. The Holy Spirit would not mislead or deceive, if there was just ONE, it would have always been listed as such.

The Problem with Trinity is in it's actual statement. I believe Jesus is the One and true God, always been here, but here with His father as He stated. Trinity's statement is there is ONE God, and Only one. This Makes for just one, and avoids sounding like Jesus was some demi god or something. However if there is just ONE, then someone is not fully God without the other as it's a triune God. That is the problem and has always been the problem. It can't be explained naturally or scripturally, because it don't make sense. I have read all the reasonings and debates concerning this matter, and the conclusion is that we believe in One God by faith, as a Mystery of the Christian faith.

Reasons given for believing in the Trinity include:

It is taught indirectly in various statements in the Bible
It explains the divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit while affirming monotheism
It would not be expected that the nature of God would make sense to human minds
The early ecumenical councils (primarily Nicea) are authoritative

This doctrine took centuries to develop, and has had a long road of debate and flame wars.

So someone simple like myself view statements like this.

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

We have two thrones, one belongs to Jesus, The other to God the Father. No throne ever mentioned for the other 1/3 part (Holy Spirit) Thrones represent ruling power and all authority and there are only two main ones in Heaven with the 24 elders. The important ones are the ones the Father and Son sit in next to each other.

Now, how many Gods we have here? God is a class of something because Theos is generic unless defined. Two thrones, mean two God's. If their is only ONE made up of 3 then Each would have a throne all fully God but the Holy Spirit got left out somewhere. Oh my.

God gave all things to his son, by whom He made all things. Does God give them to himself being ONE GOD? It makes absolutely no sense. Trinity almost has to make each their Own Separate God to explain some of these things.

If the Son of God had been here from the Start with the Father as He said, and God talking to Him that they create man in their image whom God sent his son in the last days to speak to us which is scripture in Hebrews. Then we have Two theo's A Father and Son, and absolutely Zero scripture contradiction. I don't like things that don't make sense, and I don't like contradictions.

Blessings.
Mike.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION] I think I understand what you're saying now. This is very deep thinking so bare with me. God the Father manifested himself into flesh as it says here 1 Timothy 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. God manifested himself into flesh and lowered himself to a servant among men. Philippians 2:6-8 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. This is very very interesting, check this out..notice it says emptied himself and humbled himself. WOW, ladies and gentlemen, I think we're stumbling upon revelation here.

You're all probably wondering how this could be. Well...God is God. He has the power to do anything and bring anything into existence. The reason he called himself son is because he emptied himself and humbled himself in the likeness of men. Just like he said 'LET THERE BE LIGHT' Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,†and there was light.

Do you guys understand what I'm trying to say here.

 

[jasoncran]

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now we're getting somewhere. Awesome scripture my friend. Ok ok, but that begs the question. Why did God call himself son.

metaphors. so that man can understand what god gave up and how he loved us.

 

[Brother Mike]

@Brother Mike I think I understand what you're saying now. This is very deep thinking so bare with me. God the Father manifested himself into flesh as it says here 1 Timothy 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. God manifested himself into flesh and lowered himself to a servant among men

Not exactly Like I see it, but Good enough. This would be in lines with what my Church believes. I still say if the Father Came down himself then Jesus prays to who being the Father? God the father who is on Earth calls down to God the father on earth and says this is my son whom I am well pleased. One explanation when I ask someone that question was that God may have been talking to himself. After all we all talk to ourselves. That was his explanation, which beat a picture of a Egg. I have ask many and I mean many that if the Father came down, the "ONE" God then who did Jesus pray to. Best answer I have gotten is that Jesus was pray as an example to us. Since The One God is on Earth, so He prayed as an example.

Some more crazy explanation is that God The Word part was praying to the other 1/3 part in heaven though there is just One God. So the Word of God with the Holy Spirit was praying to the last 1/3 part for???? Who knows. Jesus just prayed as an example to us (Not that He prayed for any other reason) sounds the most reasonable.


However, if that is you conclusion then sounds good enough Urk. My Church believes that and many others that the ONE God came down in Flesh. Some trinity Doctrines say that each 1/3 part is a full whole God. I know the Catholic version of it does but their version also says you have to be Catholic to be saved (point 1) but 1+1+1 does not = 1. So math would not be their strongest point.

Reasonable enough Urk.

Mike.