Is Lucifer Satan? A study of scripture...

[Vanguard]

Before you answer with a resounding "YES!" please read over this post. I will be exploring the verse Isaiah 14:12 through a variety of different translations, as well as non-biblical (but historical) material. I have my own opinion, but I leave it up to you to decide for yourself in the end.

Isaiah 14:12

KJV: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

NIV: How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

NASB: How you have fallen from heaven, O [a]star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
[a] Heb Helel, i.e. "shining one"

NRSV: How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

ESV: How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

Notice anything? Out of the most popular versions of the Christian Bible, only one, the KJV, uses the name Lucifer. The rest have removed that name in the course of their revisions! Now the question is, why? Let's dive into history...

The monk Jerome, in the 4th century CE, was translating his Latin Vulgate for the Roman Catholic Church, and in the course of it he capitalized the word lucifer, as taken from the Greek heosphorus. The original rendering of lucifer simply means "day star, morning star, or dawn star," a reference to the planet Venus. Other translations include "light-bringing, and bringer of dawn." Why Jerome chose to capitalize the word lucifer and make it a proper noun, no one knows. Thanks to literary works such as the 1611 KJV, Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost, the name Lucifer became symbolic with Satan.

However, Jerome's interpretation was incorrect.

The entire chapter 14 of Isaiah is actually talking about a Babylonian king. If you look at the original Hebrew that has been translated into English and validated, you find that it states this:

"On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labour forced on you, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: 'Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?'"



I know it is a lot to read, but it is VERY important to understand that paragraph. The original Hebrew text says nothing about Satan. It is quite literally talking about a Babylonian king, his enslavement of the Hebrews, the labors they were forced to endure, and that king's death. This is not something that is taught in Sunday school.

According to correctly translated scripture and verified by the original Hebrew, the word lucifer, spelled with a capital L, was an incorrect interpretation/translation by a Roman Catholic monk some 1600 years ago. Incidentally, Isaiah 14:12 is the only verse in the KJV of the Bible where you will find the word lucifer. Since the word does not belong, Lucifer is not Satan.

Now don't start burning me at the stake just yet. I am not saying that there is no Satan, because there most definitely is. We know this for a fact. But that verse (and chapter) is not talking about Satan. This also answers the question as to why modern translations have revised that verse and removed the word lucifer. Simply put, it never belonged in the first place.

:crazy

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

I still think that verse is possibly alluding to Satan though because it displays some of the main characteristics such as the following.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

2Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You are right though, on the surface it isn't referring to Satan. Kind of reminds me of Ezekiel 28 when on the surface it is talking about the King of Tyrus but I believe it is alluding to Satan.

When was the King of Tyrus ever in the garden of Eden? When was he ever an anointed cherub?

Ezek 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Ezek 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezek 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ezek 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Ezek 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

 

[Sinthesis]

There is nothing inherently wrong with the use of the word 'Lucifer' in Isa 14:12 provided you know why it is used. But you are correct that Lucifer does not equal Satan.

 

[Classik]

unno unno unno unno unno unno unno

 

[Classik]

I wish to know Felix's view. Where r u?

 

[n2thelight]

Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

This name "Lucifer" in the Hebrew tongue means "morning star". It identifies Satan himself in the role that he will be playing when these events of the end times come to pass. This tells us that Satan will be identifing himself as the "morning star", and trying to pass himself off as Jesus Christ, and most Christians will believe him.

"O' Lucifer" in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary, is number 1966. "Heylel, hay-lale', from 1984, (in the sense of brightness); the morning star-lucifer." Lets go to # 1984; "Halal, haw-lal', a prime root, to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color), to make a show or to boast, thus to be clamorously foolish; to rave." This is why Satan is called the son of the morning, or the morning star.

Jesus Christ is the true morning star, and Satan is the fake that claims he is the morning star. In the manuscripts it identifies this Lucifer as the one that has fallen to the earth. Satan will in fact be residing here on earth, and not just his evil spirit as is amongst us today.

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

This is the "morning star" Lucifer that is speaking here. This is what Lucifer is thinking to himself. Lucifer is thinking that he is better then God and all his Children. The "sides of the north" is the throne of God. This will be right here on earth in Jerusalem, where Jesus will return and set up his eternal kingdom, however before Jesus' temple is built, Satan will set up his rule in the exact location.
Friend, if you do not have the warning from God as to how this earth age will end and the signs that lead up to this time, you will be delivered up to Satan and rejoice in your betrothal to him. You will not be part of the bride of Christ, but taken as Jesus warned in Matthew 24:19; "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"

This means that you bacame betrothed to the wrong husband, and taken at the sixth trumpet, and not the seventh.

​

 

[Vanguard]

When debating or discussing scripture, you need to try and keep verses in context.

Edit: will have to do a follow-up post. Hit a key accidentally and posted prematurely.

 

[Vanguard]

In the manuscripts it identifies this Lucifer as the one that has fallen to the earth.

Which manuscript? Source, please.

It identifies Satan himself in the role that he will be playing when these events of the end times come to pass. This tells us that Satan will be identifing himself as the "morning star", and trying to pass himself off as Jesus Christ, and most Christians will believe him.

Assumption. Validate this please.

Isaiah 14:13"For thou hast said in thine heart, `I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

This is the "morning star" Lucifer that is speaking here. This is what Lucifer is thinking to himself. Lucifer is thinking that he is better then God and all his Children.

Taken out of context of the surrounding verses and chapter. Furthermore, how do you know what Satan is thinking? Source, please.




I have already given the original Hebrew, and it clearly talks about a man, not Satan:

'Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?'

Satan is not a man. The king of Babylon at the time, was. Just wanted to clarify those snippets.

Ask yourself this question: why would modern Bible scholars, who have far more textual resources than the authors of the KJV did, omit the word lucifer from Isaiah 14:12 entirely? There is but one logical conclusion...it was an error and doesn't belong.

 

[iLOVE]

There are variances in manuscripts in the bible. Some errors are copying the bible. However the Christian Faith should not have to compete with the world views on these variances. The bible is 100% dependable. We should focus and meditate on what Jesus has done for us. Let the scholars and the self-righteous debate these issues of the word game. This is not for the christians in training who God is preparing with his word to understand. The scholars should educate the christians on how much power we have when Gods word is spoken because of the blood of Jesus. But they first must learn how to have faith.

 

[Slider]

Vanguard,

Amen! I stand by you and have argued this point several times on other message boards, and perhaps this one too. I have a question for you, and a general statement to make and something I'd like Savedbygrace3927 to consider (as well as everyone else).

My question to you, Vanguard, is do you think that king in Isaiah 14 was Nebuchadnezzar? A follow up question is whether you see what is written in Daniel 4 connected to Isaiah 14? Interestingly, although Daniel may have actually written it, it is the only time in the OT that a non Israelite wrote something that is included in our Bible.

My general statement is this: While I firmly believe with Vanguard that Lucifer was not Satan, I can understand those who at least see actions and qualities in "Lucifer" (whom I believe to be Nebuchadnezzar) that parallel the actual Satan. Likewise, Adam is viewed as a "figure" of Christ (see Romans 5). People see "fallen from Heaven" in Isaiah 14 and immediately connect it with Luke 10:18 and Revelation 12 when Satan fell from heaven. I understand the parallel! However, it doesn't make it so anymore than Jezebel being the great whore of the book of Revelation.

This brings me to Savedbygrace, and more specifically, what was said about the King of Tyrus. We look at Eze 28 to read about him... Again, while I can see parallels, I don't see this chapter as saying he is Satan. Like Isaiah 14, he is called a man. It's easy to look at "annointed cherub" and "Eden the Garden of God" and immediately assume it's talking about Satan. However, if you reseach "Eden" you will come to understand that while yes, there was an "Eden" that Adam and Eve were in, there was also a region on earth known as "Eden". Merchants went there and it had natural resources. In other words, Eze 28 (and look at the former and latter chapter for more detail) was describing a man, not Satan. Yet, like I said, I can see parallels between the King of Tyrus and Satan.

Incidently, Nebuchadnezzar brought down this King.... I find it hard to believe they could both be Satan, as screwed up in the head as Satan is!

If I am correct about Eze 28, then we have gotten a lot of POSSIBLE false doctrine about Satan. I've heard that he was the most beautiful of Angels and he was God's Chief musician from this. Also that he was perfect at one point and the wisest of all angels. He may have been a great musician and he may have been the wisest, but he was never the most beautiful (God looks and knows the heart) nor was he at any point perfect (he was a murderer from the beginning). I also doubt he was the wisest because a wise Angel isn't going to turn away from God! A wise man (like Solomon) might lapse and do so, but I don't see a "wise" angel doing so.

Just some things to chew on!

 

[Vanguard]

If I am correct about Eze 28, then we have gotten a lot of POSSIBLE false doctrine about Satan. I've heard that he was the most beautiful of Angels and he was God's Chief musician from this. Also that he was perfect at one point and the wisest of all angels. He may have been a great musician and he may have been the wisest, but he was never the most beautiful (God looks and knows the heart) nor was he at any point perfect (he was a murderer from the beginning). I also doubt he was the wisest because a wise Angel isn't going to turn away from God! A wise man (like Solomon) might lapse and do so, but I don't see a "wise" angel doing so.

Here is an interesting tidbit...go talk to an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi about their view on Satan. Yes he is/was an angel, yes he deceives and tempts us, BUT...under their belief, God is everywhere, all powerful, and all knowing (omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient). Nothing happens without God's permission, and that includes Satan's actions. For them Satan is following God's orders to tempt us, deceive us, and trick us to see if we, as human beings, will sin. That puts a whole new spin on things, and this is coming from OT following Jews.

Edit: please note it is not me saying this, it is Orthodox Jewish Rabbis. Don't shoot the messenger!

...do you think that king in Isaiah 14 was Nebuchadnezzar? A follow up question is whether you see what is written in Daniel 4 connected to Isaiah 14?

The Book of Daniel talks at great length of Nebuchadnezzar II. During his reign, he captured Jerusalem (597 BCE), destroyed much of it 10 years later, and even brought Tyre under his authority after a 13 year campaign. He beat the Egyptians, the Syrians and the Phoenicians. He is talked about in several books of the Bible. In the Book of Jeremiah, a propephecy mentions the rise of "the destroyer of nations" and numerous scholars agree this is referenced to Nebuchadnezzar II. There was early speculation (Latin Vulgate and KJV...again by the monk Jerome) that he was humbled by God and stricken with a disease for 7 years, but the Dead Sea Scrolls have proven that to be a false notion (it was Nabonidus).

Nebuchadnezzar II is identified by the Jewish exegesis of the prophetic vision in Isaiah 14. It refers to him as "Helel ben Shaḥar" or "the shining one, son of the morning." After years of oppression, the destruction of Jerusalem, the looting and destruction of the temple, etc. the Jewish authors are mocking Nebuchadnezzar in Isaiah 14, his desire to be viewed as a god (or higher than a god), and ultimately his fall and death after 43 years in power. Given the evidence in support of it, and taking into great consideration the Hebrew scholars who say yes, I have to agree with them that Nebuchadnezzar II was the king of Babylon that Isaiah 14 speaks of.

 

[Vanguard]

However the Christian Faith should not have to compete with the world views on these variances...Let the the scholars and the self-righteous debate these issues of the word game.

While I agree with the rest of what you said, Christians do have to compete with the world views on these variances, because it is those variances that non-Christians use to attack our faith. Atheists spend time picking the Bible apart, and sadly know more about our Bible than the "average" Christian (speculative but you get the idea).

I also agree that the scholars who are educated and well versed with theology, history, languages, etc. should debate and translate scripture to different languages as accurately as possible. That's what most translators do now...the NIV had some ~100 different scholars and translators working on it for 10 years!

As for the self righteous, many other religions around the world view Christians as self righteous, especially those that will throw it in your face, tell you there is no other possible way or explanation, and have a "you're wrong, I'm right" type of attitude.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted by Vanguard,

Notice anything? Out of the most popular versions of the Christian Bible, only one, the KJV, uses the name Lucifer. The rest have removed that name in the course of their revisions! Now the question is, why? Let's dive into history...

You are correct. I have written extensively on this, even on this site. I am very grateful to see that God is giving many eyes to see, and they are "coming out of" the false doctrines of Babylon (Orthodox Christendom).



The idea that Satan was once a "holy angel" who fell is yet another of the many, many false doctrines of Babylon..... false doctrines that make void the Word of God.


Who does Christ tell us is the original murderer?

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."


How long has Satan been a murderer? Did he start out as a good angel who went bad? Is that what Jesus Christ said? What Christ has just told those with eyes to see, is: "He [the devil] was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.


According to Genesis, the serpent was the most subtle of all of the 'beasts of the field', which the Lord God HAD MADE:

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE."


Look at these verses:

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL these things."


God said: "I the Lord do ALL these things," such as: I CREATE EVIL; and I CREATE DARKNESS.



Look closely at these verses:

Job 26:13 "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the CROOKED SERPENT."

By His spirit He hath "Garnished" the heavens." "Garnished" comes from the Hebrew root, shiphrah, meaning "beauty." With the heavens in place, however, God must now create a terrible adversary to provide the necessary backdrop for a display of His love and grace. Does He "garnish" the crooked serpent? No. He "FORMS" it. "Formed" has a much different meaning than "garnished." The Hebrew word for the word "formed" is chalal. "Garnished" [shiphrah] suggests flair, fun, enjoyment. "Formed" [chalal] is a mere function—even struggle. The Hebrew translates: "His hand travailed with the fugitive serpent."


Isaiah 27:1 "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that CROOKED SERPENT; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."

The 'crooked serpent' is Satan. Look at these verses in Revelation:

Revelation 12:9 And the great DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."


The devil was cast down from heaven (Revelation 12:9) because God forced him out, he didn't "fall from grace". Satan was 'a murderer from the beginning' (John 8:44). He was evil from his creation; there was nothing good in him and no truth in him.



Here is another scriptural witness to the contrary for all who have been given eyes to see:

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY."

And who is it that has come to destroy?

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING."


Here is yet another revealing passage:

Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord has made ALL for Himself, Yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of doom."

Who has made THE WICKED?


Most of Christendom thinks that Lucifer is Satan. This teaching comes out of Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. But this is yet another false tradition that deceives the people, and it is all due to a serious translation error in the King James:


Isaiah 14:11-12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the Morning!"(KJV)



The KJV is an erroneous translation. The proper translation is:

"What a fall from heaven on high O Shining star of the dawn!" (Moffat)

"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of the dawn!" (Rotherham)

"How are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"(Amplified Bible)

(ALL translations aside from the erroneous KJV translate this verse correctly)





Peter calls Jesus the daystar in 2 Peter 1:19 and how He is to arise in our hearts. The Greek word is "phosphoros" and is translated as 'light-bearing' or 'morning star'. Our English word from the Greek is phosphorus. Phosphorus gives off its own light - hence: light-bearer.

Why would Peter, an inspired writer under the direction of the Holy Spirit, compare Jesus as the day star with Lucifer (as the KJV calls it) if Lucifer is the devil or Satan? There surely is a mistake here if it were so. But Peter does NOT draw that comparison; it is the erroneous translation of the King James that infers such.


Those in Babylon insist, contrary to what the Scriptures say, that "Lucifer" is the "proper name" for Satan. This is outright FALSE!

They also insist, contrary to what the Scriptures say, that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But according to John, Satan's "beginning" was precisely the opposite of what the 'doctrines of men' claim:

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."



There is only one place the word Lucifer appears in Scripture, and that is in Isaiah 14, and it is a translation error. What is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word 'Lucifer?' The Strong's Concordance gives Lucifer AS a definition before it even goes to the Dictionary to define the meaning. Here is what you will find:

• Lucifer (lu’sif-ur) {1} Title applied to the king of Babylon.

Clearly the editor of Strong's Concordance realized that this word is to be applied to the "king of Babylon," and NOT to SATAN THE DEVIL!


We are told that the word in question is Strong's #1966 which is:

• heylel, from #1984 [halal] (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star: Lucifer.

"Lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, all of which suggest brightness or shining.



The Scriptural Truth is that these passages in Isaiah 14 refer to none other than the king of Babylon - NOT Satan:

"How has thou (Babylon—see context of chapter) fallen from heaven, O Shining One [Hebrew]- Son of the Dawn! (Babylon luminous as Venus – the brightest 'star' of the morning). Hewn down to the earth, O crusher of nations."

The reference in Isaiah 14 is to the king of Babylon and none other. It was Babylon which was exalted to heaven in her wealth, power, and glory. The king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, was the great "HEAD OF PURE GOLD" in Daniel ch. 2. Yet God says he (Babylon) is "brought down to the earth", the one who was a "crusher of nations."



Look closely at this passage:

Isaiah 14:13-14 "For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation [appointment] in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"


This language should sound very familiar considering it is a continuation of Babylon, the same system that started at Babel, where they first thought to build "a tower whose top may reach unto heaven" (Genesis 11:4).

Genesis 11:4 "Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves."




Ezekiel chapter 28, just as Isaiah chapter 14, is another place in the Bible which people use to try and prove Satan fell from glory. But where in Ezekiel 28 is Satan mentioned? Nowhere! That's right! The Christian laity has been "told" that the "prince of Tyre" from Ezekiel chapter 28 is referring to Satan, but where do the Scriptures say that? They do not….ANYWHERE.

• Note: (the "prince" of Tyre from Ezekiel ch. 28 and the "king" of Tyre from Ezekiel ch. 15 are obviously the same person - they are both ruling over the same place - Tyre. All Kings are princes before they become kings.)

The king of Tyre was certainly not perfect in God's ways. Here is how the king of Tyre was 'perfect:'

Ezekiel 15:1 "And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Ezekiel 15:2 Son of man, What is the vine tree more than any tree, [or than] a branch which is among the trees of the forest?
Ezekiel 15:3 Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? or will [men] take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?
Ezekiel 15:4 Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel; the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned. Is it meet for [any] work?
Ezekiel 15:5 Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?"


Do you see that word 'whole?' "When it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it and it is burned?" That word 'whole' is the exact same Hebrew word that is translated 'perfect' in Ezekiel 28:15:

Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."


The Hebrew word is:

• H8549

• תּמים

• tâmîym

• taw-meem'

• From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.


All of the lambs which were sacrificed were also 'perfect' lambs. But it is not possible that the blood of a lamb can take away the sins of the world. Neither is it possible that the king of Tyre is not also "marred in the hand of the Potter."

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."



The King of Tyre was definitely not any less "shapen in iniquity" or "conceived in sin" than was King David. When he was "whole," when he was 'taw-meem', when he was 'perfect,' [the King of Tyre] was unfit for the kingdom of God. WHY?

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"



When it was 'whole' [Hebrew: 'taw-meem'], it [the King of Tyre] was "meet for no work": how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?



The king of Tyre is dead and long gone in the outward sense. But he is alive and well in every one of us today if we are not dying daily to the pulls of our flesh. That is why these chapters are here in God's Word. It is each of us who tends to 'exalt himself to heaven' (Isaiah 14) - and it is each one of us who sits as that 'man of sin' usurping God's proper place on His Throne in the Temple of God [which YE ARE]. This is "written for our admonition..."

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."


It is written and it happened to them, BUT for us.


Also, Jesus and John tell us plainly what "the beginnings" of the devil are, without even having to get into all of the study above. You just have to honestly ask yourself this question:

Do I NOT believe Jesus when He says "the devil 'was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING'....." - and do I NOT believe John when he says "the devil 'sinneth from the beginning'"?

Or do I instead believe MAN and his false doctrines of Babylon who says: "the devil was NOT a 'murderer from the beginning' and Satan did NOT 'sinneth from the beginning', but instead he was a sinless, holy angel in the beginning?




John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."

 

[Vanguard]

You wrote all of that just to agree with me? LOL! :biglol

 

[Osgiliath]

Yes and no LOL! I was happy to see someone embracing the unleavened Scriptures without the usual doctrinal bias and brainwashing (refreshing to see to say the least). But also because maybe (hopefully) others will learn from the study as well. Peace brother eace

 

[Asyncritus]

A couple of questions, Osgiliath.

1 If we define a 'murderer' as someone who kills someone else unlawfully, then who did the murdering, and who got murdered?

2 When do you think 'the beginning' was that Jesus refers to? If it's the same that Jn 1.1 refers to, then how, where and when does satan fit into that account?

3 If satan was in the garden, then a. what was he doing there? b. why was he in there? and c. what evil had he done before this, and what evidence is there?

 

[Sinthesis]

Here is an interesting tidbit...go talk to an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi about their view on Satan. Yes he is/was an angel, yes he deceives and tempts us, BUT...under their belief, God is everywhere, all powerful, and all knowing (omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient). Nothing happens without God's permission, and that includes Satan's actions. For them Satan is following God's orders to tempt us, deceive us, and trick us to see if we, as human beings, will sin. That puts a whole new spin on things, and this is coming from OT following Jews.

Edit: please note it is not me saying this, it is Orthodox Jewish Rabbis. Don't shoot the messenger!



The Book of Daniel talks at great length of Nebuchadnezzar II. During his reign, he captured Jerusalem (597 BCE), destroyed much of it 10 years later, and even brought Tyre under his authority after a 13 year campaign. He beat the Egyptians, the Syrians and the Phoenicians. He is talked about in several books of the Bible. In the Book of Jeremiah, a propephecy mentions the rise of "the destroyer of nations" and numerous scholars agree this is referenced to Nebuchadnezzar II. There was early speculation (Latin Vulgate and KJV...again by the monk Jerome) that he was humbled by God and stricken with a disease for 7 years, but the Dead Sea Scrolls have proven that to be a false notion (it was Nabonidus).

Nebuchadnezzar II is identified by the Jewish exegesis of the prophetic vision in Isaiah 14. It refers to him as "Helel ben Shaḥar" or "the shining one, son of the morning." After years of oppression, the destruction of Jerusalem, the looting and destruction of the temple, etc. the Jewish authors are mocking Nebuchadnezzar in Isaiah 14, his desire to be viewed as a god (or higher than a god), and ultimately his fall and death after 43 years in power. Given the evidence in support of it, and taking into great consideration the Hebrew scholars who say yes, I have to agree with them that Nebuchadnezzar II was the king of Babylon that Isaiah 14 speaks of.

It is a mistake to accept that Isaiah 14 is limited to prophecy about an individual person. This should be obvious if you seek to reconcile scripture with what we know from other sources.

 

[Vanguard]

It is a mistake to accept that Isaiah 14 is limited to prophecy about an individual person. This should be obvious if you seek to reconcile scripture with what we know from other sources.

While I agree that it is improper to limit yourself to a single theory, every historical and biblical source that I have read, every pastor/priest/rabbi that I have spoken to, and every history professor I have questioned about it all seem to agree that it can be none other than Nebuchadnezzar II. It is on their conclusions that I have come to my own. Until something comes along that proves otherwise, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted by Asyncritus,

1 If we define a 'murderer' as someone who kills someone else unlawfully, then who did the murdering, and who got murdered?

Satan was created as "The Adversary;" and he was created for God's purposes:

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."

(Ace: the answer to this first question is answered thoroughly in my answers to your other two questions below)

Originally Posted by Asyncritus,

2 When do you think 'the beginning' was that Jesus refers to? If it's the same that Jn 1.1 refers to, then how, where and when does satan fit into that account?

When God speaks of "the beginning" He is speaking of the originating point of the subject in question. In this case the subject in question is "the devil." This is referring to "the devil's beginning."


JESUS said of Satan,

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it."

Jesus reveals that in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!



John 8:44 above states that Satan "Adobe not in the truth." In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (Greek form of steko), "I keep my standing", or simply, "I stand", and the form is (esteken) meaning that as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE.


Revelation 12:9 "And the great DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."


Satan is called "that old serpent." The word "old" is from the Greek word "archaios" which means ORIGINAL or PRIMEVAL. "Primeval" means FROM THE FIRST AGE OR AGES: PRIMITIVE. "Archaios" is from the Greek word "arche" which means A COMMENCEMENT OR BEGINNING. Furthermore, "arche" is an abstraction of the Greek word "archomai" which means TO COMMENCE IN ORDER OF TIME.

Putting this all together we see that Satan is that OLD serpent, that ANCIENT serpent, that ORIGINAL serpent, that PRIMEVAL serpent, the serpent of THE FIRST AGE, from the BEGINNING, who existed "as the serpent" right FROM THE COMMENCEMENT OF TIME (HIS time in existence).



MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John also confirms Satan's origin:

1 John 3:8 "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."


The Devil, according to I John 3:8 above "WAS A SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING!" If we are to believe the Bible means what it says - and I believe it does - we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS A SINNER AND A MURDERER, not a SINLESS, HOLY ANGEL!

Originally Posted by Asyncritus,

3 If satan was in the garden, then a. what was he doing there? b. why was he in there? and c. what evil had he done before this, and what evidence is there?

The serpent was in the Garden (obviously), and Revelation 12:9 confirms that the serpent and satan are one and the same:

Revelation 12:9 "And the great DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world."



'Why was he there?' And: 'What was he doing there?'

Consider these Scriptures:

1 Samuel 16:14 "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1 Samuel 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee."


An evil spirit from "Who" troubled Saul? Satan was created to do exactly what He is doing. Satan is "an evil spirit from the Lord," whom God sends out to tempt us, try us, test us, trouble our flesh to do evil things, etc.


John 13:27 "Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly."

Where was Satan before Christ gave Judas the bread (sop)? He was right there in the heaven of Judas's heart and mind, but Satan was restrained in that position and unable to incite Judas to go to the chief priests to sell Christ for thirty pieces of silver until Satan was given the order by God to tempt Judas with that evil thought.



So Christ's entire crucifixion was actually, in the final analysis, "what God's hand and God's counsel, determined before to be done."

Acts 4:26 "The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."



This is all part of God's plan from the beginning. Here is a scripture that is even clearer on the matter of Satan being created for God's purposes.

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY."

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things."

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made ALL THINGS for himself: yea, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of evil."

Job 26:13 "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the CROOKED SERPENT."


(see the explanation of the Hebrew with regard to the words "garnished" [shiphrah] and "formed" [chalal] for Job 26:13 above - in my previous post #13 of this thread.)




Speaking of Job, the beginning of Job is perhaps the best explanation to your question concerning "Why" satan was in the Garden; and "What" he was doing there. The beginning of Job is a parallel to the Garden of Eden and gives us much insight into God's plan in the beginning!

What does God do but deliberately hand over this righteous and upright man Job into the hands of Satan to do his worst upon him, only that he should not touch his life. It was because God desired to test Job that He brought forth "the smith to blow the coals up on the fire."

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."



Please note that it was not Satan's idea to persecute Job! NO, it was NOT. It was God Himself who brought up the subject!

There Satan was, presenting himself before the Lord, appearing for duty, and God asked, "Where have you been?" Satan replied, "Walking up and down in the earth" (No mention of Job at all). Well, Satan, the Lord asked, "Have you considered My servant Job?" Have you noticed that, Satan?"


This was all God's doing. Satan can DO NOTHING unless God gives him permission! The beginning of Job is a parallel to the Garden of Eden.




In addition,

The "Smith" that "blows upon the fire" (Isaiah 54:16) is also the one who heats the furnace seven times hotter! (see Daniel 3:19)


1 Peter 4:12 "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing had happened unto you."


Our trials and testings are associated in the Word of God with the workings of Satan.

Matthew 4:1 "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be TEMPTED (tested) OF THE DEVIL."


The Holy Spirit of God drives the sinless Son of God into the wilderness to be tempted of Satan, the adversary of all righteousness, a murderer from the beginning, and the father of lies! But it was necessary for the Son to be PROVEN, to be made STRONG, to OVERCOME in these realms before proceeding on into His glorious ministry and the death of the Cross. And it is necessary for ALL OF US, just as it was for Jesus and Job, to be TESTED and PROVEN, to be made STRONG.

Originally Posted by Sinthesis,

It is a mistake to accept that Isaiah 14 is limited to prophecy about an individual person. This should be obvious if you seek to reconcile scripture with what we know from other sources.

Exactly.

The king of Tyre and the king of Babylon are history in the outward sense. But they are alive and well in every one of us today if we are not 'dying daily' to the pulls of our flesh. That is why these chapters are here in God's Word.

It is EACH OF US who believes it is OURSELVES who build OUR OWN kingly houses, by OUR OWN ingenuity, power, and majesty:

Daniel 4:30 "The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I HAVE BUILT for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY POWER, and for the honour of MY MAJESTY?"



It is EACH OF US who tends to 'exalt himself to heaven':

Isaiah 14:13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation."

Daniel 4:22 "It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth."



It is EACH ONE OF US who sits as that 'beast,' as that 'man of sin,' exalting ourselves; usurping God's proper place on His Throne in the Temple of God [which temple YE ARE] (1 Corinthians 3:16-17).


This was all "written for our admonition...":

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now ALL THESE THINGS happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."



The king of Babylon and the king of Tyre are simply "types" of ALL OF US, and our own "self-exalting" nature. And it is the devil, Satan, that Old Serpent, the Great Dragon who tempts and encourages us, and gives us 'the illusion' that it is OUR OWN power and greatness:

Revelation 13:2 "......and the dragon gave him [the beast] his power, and his seat, and great authority."

 

[Vanguard]

JESUS said of Satan,

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it."

Jesus reveals that in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!

You do realize that in John chapter 8, Jesus is actually talking to the Pharisees, scribes, other Jews and His followers? You can't take a verse out of context and apply it wherever to try and make a point. This may not be your intent, but it sounds like you are saying "because of John 8:44, Satan is this..." There's also a whole truckload of other assumptions and speculations throughout your post. When talking about apologetics and history, be very careful about making assumptive/speculative statements.