Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[Fastfredy0]

My point is, we are born in sin; a body that contains sin.

Agreed

This come from our father's bloodline.

Theory only

However little children who do not know good from evil, are innocent.

We disagree as I say somebody who has sin is not innocent; whereas, you say somebody who has sin is innocent. So be it.

Please cease from labeling me with an unbiblical term as immaculent conception, claiming I believe all people are born in immaculent conception, a term not found in the scriptures.

Agreed, upon further study of what immaculate conception is and you stating we are born in sin, this is an untrue statement.

 

[Fastfredy0]

A fetus can not breath on its own while in the womb by inhaling air/oxygen the way they do after delivery. Oxygen travels through the mothers lungs, heart, vasculature, uterus and placenta making its way through the umbilical cord and into the fetus that keeps them alive in the womb. According to John 3:13 no one other than Jesus has ever ascended up to heaven. I hate to even think what they do with aborted fetus as I can only assume it goes to hazardous trash, but anything that dies turns back to the dust of the ground.

Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

James 2:26 for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul, as the breath, goes back to God who gave it. 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead as those who have died that are the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus as this is the first resurrection. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be raised with new Glorified bodies which we not know what we will look like, but will be like Christ, 1John 3:1-3.​

Sounds about right to me. I think you are going out on a limb what you say we don't get a soul till we leave the womb, but I am impressed by the logic you gave to support your idea. As I said, I've read others theories, some of which say our soul comes from our parents, but laying that aside ...

My question remains ...
If we assume one does not have a soul until God breaths into a person at birth is it correct then that are you saying a fetus before birth has no soul or a dead soul (whatever that is). This being true per your hypothesis, what are the consequences of this? Do aborted babies just go back to dust (not to heaven or hell)... agreed the physical body goes to dust, but the soul or more accurately, the lack of a soul that you propose suggests that there is no spirit to go anywhere. If there is no soul before birth then all that has been destroyed is meat; it's not even a person.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sounds about right to me. I think you are going out on a limb what you say we don't get a soul till we leave the womb, but I am impressed by the logic you gave to support your idea. As I said, I've read others theories, some of which say our soul comes from our parents, but laying that aside ...

My question remains ...
If we assume one does not have a soul until God breaths into a person at birth is it correct then that are you saying a fetus before birth has no soul or a dead soul (whatever that is). This being true per your hypothesis, what are the consequences of this? Do aborted babies just go back to dust (not to heaven or hell)... agreed the physical body goes to dust, but the soul or more accurately, the lack of a soul that you propose suggests that there is no spirit to go anywhere. If there is no soul before birth then all that has been destroyed is meat; it's not even a person.

The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. Infants/fetus have no awareness of their own state, emotions and motivations. Even older children who can speak have very limited insight into their own actions until they are taught right from wrong. A fetus has a soul, but it's only when the soul becomes alive as in God breathing the breath of life in us when we are born does it only remain dormant until birth. A fetus can react to stimuli, but nothing more that just a reaction.​

 

[JLB]

Agreed, upon further study of what immaculate conception is and you stating we are born in sin, this is an untrue statement.

Well I guess you can observe for the next week.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

My point is, we are born in sin; a body that contains sin.

I would not say we are born in sin as being sin found in us from the womb for how does a fetus/newborn infant come out of the womb sinning, or that our body contains sin as God did not create us in the womb as sinners, but that we should be holy unto Him. We are all born with a nature to sin that has been passed down from Adam from generation to generation, even after the flood. Not his sin, but the nature to sin as all have fallen short of the glory of the Lord, Romans 3:10, 23.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

In another way of understanding this verse is that I was sharpened with the nature to sin and was conceived of my mother in a sinful world.

In no way is this adding or taking away from the word, but how I understand this verse.

 

[JLB]

I would not say we are born in sin as being sin found in us from the womb for how does a fetus/newborn infant come out of the womb sinning, or that our body contains sin as God did not create us in the womb as sinners, but that we should be holy unto Him.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12


How does a man who sins, beget a sinless child?

Each child is conceived with a physical body that contains sin, passed on from our father.


Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5


This does not mean a child is a sinner, it means the child has sin in their physical body.


JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

If you dont mind please post the scripture you want me to examine, and refer to the actual words of that particular scripture, like I did for you, using Isaiah 53.



JLB

Proverbs 17:15 says this:

He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just - both alike are an abomination to Adonai.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/proverbs/17-15.htm

So I have asked the following questions of you, with reference to that scripture:

- Was Jesus just? (You have said yes).
- Was Jesus condemned? (You have asked for scripture to understand the context of my question. Why wouldn't you just answer according to your own doctrine?)
- Were those who are sanctified once guilty? (You have not answered the question).
- Did those who are sanctified receive acquittal of their sins?

What does this question have to do with Jesus paying the price for our sin on the cross?

Because what you are saying when you say that Jesus paid the price for our sin on the cross, is that He who is just has been condemned in order that those who did the wicked deeds can be acquitted, and both of those assertions are abominable in the eyes of God. Can you see that it is not consistent with the character of God as He is described by this proverb?

 

[Serving Zion]

How does a man who sins, beget a sinless child?

The answer is in how sin spreads from one to another. You say it comes in through the DNA but there is no indication of that in scripture and furthermore, it means that Adam and Eve themselves have had the potential for sin in their DNA from the start. Instead it is the exact opposite from your teaching that we are told in Romans 12:2

"Do not be conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of the mind". Paul is specifically saying that the mind needs to be made new again - and to be transformed away from the way the world has made it become, because we are made in the image of God but it is the world that fashions us into it's image - the fallen nature.

 

[JLB]

Proverbs 17:15 says this:

He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just - both alike are an abomination to Adonai.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:4-6

• But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities;

• And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

The reason Jesus paid the penalty for our transgressions, is the LORD laid them on Jesus and imputed His righteousness to us.


If you don’t believe this, then so be it.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The answer is in how sin spreads from one to another. You say it comes in through the DNA but there is no indication of that in scripture and furthermore, it means that Adam and Eve themselves have had the potential for sin in their DNA from the start. Instead it is the exact opposite from your teaching that we are told in Romans 12:2

Adam and Eve chose to obey Satan and disobey God, because they were made in the image and likeness of God with the ability to choose.


I don’t remember using the word DNA, although I might have.

I don’t really completely understand DNA and how it applies to this discussion.


Here is what I said —

“My point is, we are born in sin; a body that contains sin.

This come from our father's bloodline.”


Do you disagree?



Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12


How do you see sin spreading to all mankind because of Adam’s disobedience?





JLB

 

[PeterJens]

I responded indirectly several times. I don't want to go on a tangent. You posted in #296/#300 that little children are innocent. This is the subject at hand. Whether and when children commit sin is not essential to proving the statement that little children are innocent because Psalm 51:5 says we are conceived in sin. To have sin is proof that little children not innocent. No further proof like a 6 month old committing sin or not committing sin is necessary.

If the subject of whether or not a 6 month baby can commit sin interests you, open up a thread and if the subject interests me I may give an opinion.

This point about innocence of children is a very immotive subject.
After many times touching on the subject, the idea of sin rather than being an action is the fruit of separation from God, ie separation from God is dwelling in sin.

In my thinking through my life this contradiction occurred. If God is the source of everything, the definer and builder of all that we see, objectivity is an illusion, because everything resolves back to Him. So in a sense by rejecting God we reject our own existence. It is this rejection, though passive as a child which is sin, and the cause of sin. It is the state of our reference point, ourselves, which will inevitably lead to selfish justification of action which will then lead to death.

So if one posits that children are innocent, in a sense this is true, they are leaves on a stream going over the water fall never to return. C S Lewis painted the concept like being a shadow in a world that is real and defined. As one walks with Jesus we ourselves become more real and defined. I have to say in a sense when I was a child I was conscious of only a small part of myself and my ebbs and flows, whereas now I am much more aware of all aspects of myself.

In a discussion with a free grace believer, he held all children who die go to heaven. It was a lazy way of resolving the lake of fire, to put the blame on actions and payment for sin. The real issue of transformational change from death to life and walking in the paths of glory, was simply not part of their conversation. A free ticket to heaven, and powerlessness against sin, was their creed. So it was a small step to label innocents as already bought in.

Paul implies the believing parent covers the children in grace, until they reach the age of majority, 20 years old.
The kingdom born within each believer, like a living thing, makes sense of eternity with Jesus, or a husk burnt up at the final judgement. Our focus seems too often to be point scoring rather than asking what makes a person a person?
The sum of their actions and intentions? Their beliefs and built reactions to lifes situations?

When you see people have nervous breakdowns, you begin to see how fragile man is, and how perilous it is to walk away from Gods love and protection. Mans heart is so quick to believe he is capable and strong, when his foundations and footing is washing away.

God bless you

 

[Walpole]

It seems there is conflation between actual sin and what some of us call original sin.

First, actual sin does not reside in our bloodline. Rather, sin is a positive act of the will which is contrary to the law of God. (cf. 1 John 3:4) Therefore infants, babies and those handicapped with mental deficiencies are not capable of committing actual sins. To believe that man sins just by the fact that he is man (i.e. has a human nature) renders God the author of sin. With each subsequent conception, God would be bringing more sin (and therefore evil) into the world. Furthermore, man could not be held accountable for sinning, as he would simply be acting in accordance with his nature.

What David is speaking about in Psalm 51:5, which has been quoted, is original sin. Original sin is actually a deprivation.


The dogma of the Immaculate Conception has also been introduced. Ironically, the poster who introduced it also inadvertently provided the reason for it in post #347...

"Could Christ, who is innocent, possibly be considered to be conceived in sin, I think not. Why the heck do you think Christ was born of a virgin by the Spirit .... to AVOID being conceived in sin, so He would be innocent."

The above is the best defense of the Immaculate Conception.

 

[GodsGrace]

It would be speculating to try and answer this.

JLB and for OzSpen who gave you a LIKE.

A member is asking if those who are sanctified were once guilty.
Why would it be speculating to answer this?

Isn't the simple answer YES??

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is interesting. If we assume the statement is correct then are you saying a fetus before birth has no soul or a dead soul (whatever that is). What are the consequences of this? Do aborted babies just go back to dust (not to heaven or hell).
Psalm 51:5 speaks of being in sin from conception. At conception do we have a no soul and if so, where does the sin reside at conception. Hmmmm, sounds like Deut. 29:29 stuff to me. (aside: this is above my pay level ... lol)

Aside: I've read where there are two theories as to where our soul comes from, parents or God and supposedly both theories have flaws ... not a critical issue anyways

Our SOUL comes from our parents, it is inherited behavior and beliefs.
Our SPIRIT comes from God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I responded indirectly several times. I don't want to go on a tangent. You posted in #296/#300 that little children are innocent. This is the subject at hand. Whether and when children commit sin is not essential to proving the statement that little children are innocent because Psalm 51:5 says we are conceived in sin. To have sin is proof that little children not innocent. No further proof like a 6 month old committing sin or not committing sin is necessary.

If the subject of whether or not a 6 month baby can commit sin interests you, open up a thread and if the subject interests me I may give an opinion.

Psalm 51:5 depending on what version is read....
could mean that David was conceived in sin....IN SIN,,,,not WITH SIN.
IOW,,,His parents were sinners and they conceived HIM also in sin.

Or it could mean that David was born a sinner.

Either case does not present a problem with mainline Christianity.
I believe you think it means option 2.....Born WITH SIN. BORN A SINNER.

This is OK, since it is established that we are born with the sin nature.
I said in a previous post that we are born NOT GUILTY but are also born not innocent....

Why?

We are not innocent because of this sin nature.
But we are also NOT GUILTY.

A person is only responsible for their own sins....not for the sins of anyone else, including
their parents.

A baby cannot commit sin...a child cannot commit sin because he does not even know what sin is.
For this reason we say that a child IS INNOCENT....He is innocent of individual sin.

Until he understands what sin is and purposefully commits a sin against God, we can say that the child is innocent...
from the moment they DO understand this...they become responsible for their own sin...they become guilty and
need salvation.

Maybe this needs its own thread.....
Look for it.

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems there is conflation between actual sin and what some of us call original sin.

First, actual sin does not reside in our bloodline. Rather, sin is a positive act of the will which is contrary to the law of God. (cf. 1 John 3:4) Therefore infants, babies and those handicapped with mental deficiencies are not capable of committing actual sins. To believe that man sins just by the fact that he is man (i.e. has a human nature) renders God the author of sin. With each subsequent conception, God would be bringing more sin (and therefore evil) into the world. Furthermore, man could not be held accountable for sinning, as he would simply be acting in accordance with his nature.

What David is speaking about in Psalm 51:5, which has been quoted, is original sin. Original sin is actually a deprivation.


The dogma of the Immaculate Conception has also been introduced. Ironically, the poster who introduced it also inadvertently provided the reason for it in post #347...

"Could Christ, who is innocent, possibly be considered to be conceived in sin, I think not. Why the heck do you think Christ was born of a virgin by the Spirit .... to AVOID being conceived in sin, so He would be innocent."

The above is the best defense of the Immaculate Conception.

I would just add that in Protestantism Original Sin is what is known in some denominations as the Sin Nature...
which actually resembles concupiscense more.

The O.S. which Adam commited is what we have been imbued with...its effects.
Which we could call concupiscense or the sin nature.

Actual sin is the same...the sin that we commit individually and for which we are responsible.
I don't believe this has a name in Protestantism...it's just called sin.

If I'm wrong about this...anyone could correct me (re the calling it sin).

 

[GodsGrace]

This point about innocence of children is a very immotive subject.
After many times touching on the subject, the idea of sin rather than being an action is the fruit of separation from God, ie separation from God is dwelling in sin.

In my thinking through my life this contradiction occurred. If God is the source of everything, the definer and builder of all that we see, objectivity is an illusion, because everything resolves back to Him. So in a sense by rejecting God we reject our own existence. It is this rejection, though passive as a child which is sin, and the cause of sin. It is the state of our reference point, ourselves, which will inevitably lead to selfish justification of action which will then lead to death.

So if one posits that children are innocent, in a sense this is true, they are leaves on a stream going over the water fall never to return. C S Lewis painted the concept like being a shadow in a world that is real and defined. As one walks with Jesus we ourselves become more real and defined. I have to say in a sense when I was a child I was conscious of only a small part of myself and my ebbs and flows, whereas now I am much more aware of all aspects of myself.

In a discussion with a free grace believer, he held all children who die go to heaven. It was a lazy way of resolving the lake of fire, to put the blame on actions and payment for sin. The real issue of transformational change from death to life and walking in the paths of glory, was simply not part of their conversation. A free ticket to heaven, and powerlessness against sin, was their creed. So it was a small step to label innocents as already bought in.

Paul implies the believing parent covers the children in grace, until they reach the age of majority, 20 years old.
The kingdom born within each believer, like a living thing, makes sense of eternity with Jesus, or a husk burnt up at the final judgement. Our focus seems too often to be point scoring rather than asking what makes a person a person?
The sum of their actions and intentions? Their beliefs and built reactions to lifes situations?

When you see people have nervous breakdowns, you begin to see how fragile man is, and how perilous it is to walk away from Gods love and protection. Mans heart is so quick to believe he is capable and strong, when his foundations and footing is washing away.

God bless you

Why do you say the age of reason is 20 years old?
That seems very late to me....I was never taught an actual age.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I would just add that in Protestantism Original Sin is what is known in some denominations as the Sin Nature...
which actually resembles concupiscense more.

The O.S. which Adam commited is what we have been imbued with...its effects.
Which we could call concupiscense or the sin nature.

Actual sin is the same...the sin that we commit individually and for which we are responsible.
I don't believe this has a name in Protestantism...it's just called sin.

If I'm wrong about this...anyone could correct me (re the calling it sin).

This is all about authority.
God's authority.
If he calls something sin, then it is sin.
His authority is above all other authority.
When we sin, we disobey God's authority.

God's authority, our obedience.
Obedience is a foundational Principle.
Because of our disobedience and lack of understanding what that is, we don't know how to obey authority, from
God on down, since he appointed all authority.
Thus we continue to sin and cannot stand before God and expect his blessings.

Look at all the authority in your life, according to the Bible, and start obeying all of it, and then expect miracles.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is all about authority.
God's authority.
If he calls something sin, then it is sin.
His authority is above all other authority.
When we sin, we disobey God's authority.

God's authority, our obedience.
Obedience is a foundational Principle.
Because of our disobedience and lack of understanding what that is, we don't know how to obey authority, from
God on down, since he appointed all authority.
Thus we continue to sin and cannot stand before God and expect his blessings.

Look at all the authority in your life, according to the Bible, and start obeying all of it, and then expect miracles.

You say to look at all authority....
You mean besides God?

Sin is missing the mark God has set for us.
Sin is disobedience.
Sin is an action against God's morals or an omission. It could be either.

I'm going to start a thread on miracles....

 

[JLB]

JLB and for OzSpen who gave you a LIKE.

A member is asking if those who are sanctified were once guilty.
Why would it be speculating to answer this?

Isn't the simple answer YES??

Thanks.

Who was sanctified?
What were they guilty of?


I also gave a brief explanation:


If someone is sanctified, they can return to the sin they were cleansed from.



JLB