Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[stovebolts]

I never said anything about immaculate conception.

Someone labeled me as promoting that concept.


JLB

Sure, but you also said,
Every human being has a physical body that contains sin that is passed on by the father: the fathers bloodline

That doesn’t have anything to do with the psalms. Especially 51 or 139.
Here is my pet peeve. So many people try and use Psalm 51 to support the idea that we are born sinful. That we are utterly corrupt from conception. Regardless if one believes this or not, to use psalm 51 to support that doctrine is to miss the narrative and lessons in Psalm 51.

Put it this way, I have only ever seen Psalm 51 used on this site within the context of the arguments between members who either support or deny original sin. These arguments cherry pick a single verse in psalm 51 with almost total disregard for the entire psalm thereby twisting that passages original meaning and King David’s intent as he reflected on his own life.

 

[stovebolts]

There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
Romans 3:11

The context is Paul quoting from Psalms 14.

The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one. Psalm 14:1-3



The context is about the fool who says their is no God.

An atheist.






JLB

Amen.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 3:11 has been explained to you several times now.
It's easier just to believe Calvin rather than to seek THE TRUTH-


The following verses show that you do not understand Romans 3:11
and that you should SEEK to know the truth......
Paul knew the following verses when he wrote Romans 3:11
Do you believe Paul refused all O.T. knowledge?
I hope you know that he was a scholar and very intelligent...

Matthew 6:33 ESV / 2,158 helpful votes ​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV / 1,814 helpful votes ​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17 ESV / 1,765 helpful votes ​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11 ESV / 1,759 helpful votes ​

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13 ESV / 1,662 helpful votes ​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Psalm 63:1 ESV / 1,567 helpful votes ​

A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water.

Deuteronomy 4:29 ESV / 1,552 helpful votes ​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8 ESV / 1,333 helpful votes ​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10 ESV / 1,285 helpful votes ​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 14:2 ESV / 1,198 helpful votes ​

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.

Psalm 34:10 ESV / 1,160 helpful votes ​

The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.

Isaiah 55:6-7 ESV / 1,114 helpful votes ​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10 ESV / 1,067 helpful votes ​

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Psalm 119:2 ESV / 1,062 helpful votes ​

Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart,

Lamentations 3:25 ESV / 1,010 helpful votes ​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

Jeremiah 29:12-14 ESV / 979 helpful votes ​

Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

​

Nothing posted here contradicts Rom 3:11, man by nature, under sin does not seek after God, nor understand God, the True God that is.

 

[brightfame52]

Calvin makes sense to you????

Huh ? Invalid comment. What does this comment have to do with what scripture states about man born under sin, does not seek after God ? Rom 3:11

 

[stovebolts]

Nothing posted here contradicts Rom 3:11, man by nature, under sin does not seek after God, nor understand God, the True God that is.

Then by your own standards, all will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[brightfame52]

There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
Romans 3:11

The context is Paul quoting from Psalms 14.

The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one. Psalm 14:1-3



The context is about the fool who says their is no God.

An atheist.






JLB

I know the context, doesnt change anything, Paul lifted a verse out of that context and applied it to his epistle to Romans, and used it to describe mans deplorable condition by nature, under sin Rom 3:11

 

[brightfame52]

Then by your own standards, all will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So where did I say all men will be saved ? Please dont say things I didnt say sir. My point has been, and scripture testifies, man by nature, born under sin, does not seek after God Rom 3:9-11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[JLB]

Sure, but you also said,
Every human being has a physical body that contains sin that is passed on by the father: the fathers bloodline

That doesn’t have anything to do with the psalms. Especially 51

Ok. So believe otherwise.


Please try to excuse us who believe otherwise.


Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12



JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is my pet peeve. So many people try and use Psalm 51 to support the idea that we are born sinful. That we are utterly corrupt from conception.

I don’t believe we are utterly corrupt at conception.

I do however believe we have a physical body that contains sin, a sin nature, that was passed down from Adam.


I also believe little children are innocent, until they reach a certain age.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul lifted a verse out of that context and applied it to his epistle to Romans,

Paul lifted nothing out of context. Paul is making a legal argument against those who know the law, showing that Jews need a Savior just as Gentiles do.


What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2


Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19


Sandwiched in between these passages is your verse 11.



Conclusion—

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:24


The overarching mindset of the Jew is because they are Abraham’s children they are blessed, which means they (think) they have eternal salvation by natural birth, the very issue Jesus dealt with in Nicodemus.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

jlb

Paul lifted nothing out of context.

Thats not true, He didnt quote the entire 14th Psalm in Rom 3. Show where he did sir.

 

[JLB]

jlb


Thats not true, He didnt quote the entire 14th Psalm in Rom 3. Show where he did sir.

I didn’t say he quoted the entire 14th Psalm.

He certainly quoted more than one verse. Hopefully you can see that?



Paul recounted much of his quoting of the OT scriptures from memory.


For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.” Hebrews 4:4-5


He didn’t quote chapter and verse since that concept hadn’t come about yet.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

It is extremely poor exegesis to redact these two verses together. I would go as far as to say it’s an abomination of scripture.

I don’t believe we are utterly corrupt at conception.
Neither do I. I believe we are beautifully and wonderfully created.

I do however believe we have a physical body that contains sin, a sin nature, that was passed down from Adam.

And exactly what is this sin nature? I think this is the crux of the matter. We know death was passed down from Adam. Is this the sin your speaking of?
This can get very interesting because Adam had the propensity to sin from the moment he was created. And we know Adam sinned. So it wasn’t a matter of if Adam could sin, but when. Is this what we are calling the sin nature? If it is, then would not a child have that same nature and wouldn’t the same apply? In other words, it’s not a matter of if a child can sin, but when?

I also believe little children are innocent, until they reach a certain age.

Yes, like Eve, there comes an age of accountability where one is no longer deceived and is held fully accountable. When we mature to recognize the truth, we then can choose death, or life.

 

[stovebolts]

Paul lifted nothing out of context. Paul is making a legal argument against those who know the law, showing that Jews need a Savior just as Gentiles do.


What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2


Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19


Sandwiched in between these passages is your verse 11.



Conclusion—

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 3:24


The overarching mindset of the Jew is because they are Abraham’s children they are blessed, which means they (think) they have eternal salvation by natural birth, the very issue Jesus dealt with in Nicodemus.



JLB

Spot on... context is so important.

 

[stovebolts]

So where did I say all men will be saved ? Please dont say things I didnt say sir. My point has been, and scripture testifies, man by nature, born under sin, does not seek after God Rom 3:9-11

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Ha, sorry about that. Lol.
Here is my point. Anyone can cherry pick a verse out of its original context and apply any meaning they want to it.

One such example is universalism. While you yourself did not say this, there are many who cherry pick passages and string them together to form a narrative foreign to the native biblical narrative.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is extremely poor exegesis to redact these two verses together. I would go as far as to say it’s an abomination of scripture.

You're speaking about Psalm 51:5 that speaks about being brought forth in iniquity
and Romans 5:12 that states that through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.

Actually Romans 5:12 explains why Psalm 51:5 is correct.
I don't see anything wrong in connecting the two.

Everyone is born in sin.....the effects of the sin that Adam committed.
Death spread to all men...both physical death and spiritual death.
We are born with this flesh that contains sin...or we can call it the sin nature...
which is our propensity to sin before we know God.

I don’t believe we are utterly corrupt at conception.
Neither do I. I believe we are beautifully and wonderfully created.

We are beautifully and wonderfully created....
But we are tarnished with the sin nature and will need salvation when we come to
understand this.

And exactly what is this sin nature? I think this is the crux of the matter. We know death was passed down from Adam. Is this the sin your speaking of?

Right! The sin nature is what we inherit from Adam.
NOT our responsibility for HIS sin....
But the effects of his sin.

Before the fall man had:
Immortality
Infused knowledge
Integrity (man's nature was close to God and not damaged yet)

We lost all 3. And possibly more that we cannot fathom.

This can get very interesting because Adam had the propensity to sin from the moment he was created. And we know Adam sinned. So it wasn’t a matter of if Adam could sin, but when. Is this what we are calling the sin nature? If it is, then would not a child have that same nature and wouldn’t the same apply? In other words, it’s not a matter of if a child can sin, but when?

The above is true.
What makes the difference for children is that they are not aware of sin, and so cannot sin.
When they become aware of what sin is and how it affects their relationship with God...
then they become responsible for their own personal sins...so you're right.
It's a matter of when...and they must be aware of the sin.

Yes, like Eve, there comes an age of accountability where one is no longer deceived and is held fully accountable. When we mature to recognize the truth, we then can choose death, or life.

Agreed.

 

[stovebolts]

Actually Romans 5:12 explains why Psalm 51:5 is correct.
I don't see anything wrong in connecting the two.

It’s poor exegesis. David is being very specific while reflecting being outcast by his family (psalm 69) and his affair with Bathsheba. David’s relationship with Bathsheba was purely sexual. His desire was not for a child. David is saying that just like the child that was conceived between he and Bathsheba was unwanted, he himself was the product of not being wanted. Ohh what a sin it is to dread the news that you’ve produced a child when you only sought the sexual pleasure of another’s flesh. How selfish... how utterly sinful that act of sexuality. Thus I was conceived in iniquity.

This is far from the narrative Paul is discussing in Romans 5.

Poor exegesis leads to poor redaction which leads to terrible theology and doctrines.

 

[stovebolts]

Right! The sin nature is what we inherit from Adam.
NOT our responsibility for HIS sin....
But the effects of his sin.

Death.... death is what we all receive from Adam.
Adam always had the potential to sin. When he committed a particular sin, death was the result.
Paul says that there is no sin without the law. In other words, if the law teaches us what is sinful, can we be held accountable for our ignorance? This is an open ended question.
But i degrees. Adam was made aware of the commandment, and he willfully broke it. Adam had the propensity to sin from the time God gave him the command. it wasn’t a matter of if, but when. Adam had to make a choice. Do I obey God, or do I do my own thing. Moses echos this in Deuteronomy 28. Choose this day either life or death. We all choose death, everyone of us since Adam with the exception of Jesus. We all sin. But we’re not created sinful. We are created innocent and without blemish. We are beautifully and wonderfully created regardless if our conception was an act of sin by our parents, or whether our conception was a shared beauty between our parents. You see, not all sexual acts are pleasing to God. Some sexual acts are sinful. But sex in and of itself is not sinful. Instead, it can be one of the most beautiful and intimate experiences two can experience as one.

 

[Butch5]

In a recently closed thread, someone was positing that man does not even have the capability of seeking God. Is this an actual belief of some Christians?

Yes, it's an actual belief. However, it is incorrect.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I just can't make sense of the reformed faith....

wondering
X2 brother.
To me, the reformation doctrine and Calvinism make no sense to me, as again to me, they have major doctrinal belief issue that invalidates God's word, and invalidates salvation God's way.

But unfortunately, the same can be said for most other doctrines of faith today, and for me, most churches nowadays have become a form of the anti-Christ (Against Christ teachings), but not THE ANTI-CHRIST.

Think about this!!

If most Christian churches aren't teaching God's true word anymore, then technically they aren't Christian churches and shouldn't be referred to as a Christian church.
And if the people inside are buying into a false doctrine, then technically they aren't Christians and they are not saved.
Think about it.
And think about Matthew 7:14
"For the gate is narrow and the way is constricted that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

That verse is constantly in my head during my time here or in my studies, and in my prayers, as it TERRIFIES ME to think I could be one of the "FEW."
ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIES ME !!!

Seasoned by Grace