Is man not really capable of seeking God?

[Seasoned by Grace]

I was going through different topics here, as I do others day too, and in my growing joy in Christ and realization what a glorious gift it is to be here or anywhere that discusses God and His biblical doctrine, no matter what anyone's view is, what a FABULOUS GIFT to explore and discuss everything here, and I find such joy and happiness in all of it.

Praise God that we have this privilege, and can share all in LOVE.

 

[Lilac]

Taking one verse out of context of the full meaning leaves one to say that no one seeks Him and we know that is wrong as many seek and find Him as we all have.

He chose us first, that is why we can have faith:
...22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;... (reading whole chapter of Romans 3)
I suspect God 'gives' us His gift of faith, and it is up to us to pick it up and nurture this. In addition, I'd imply we can also loose that faith

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,
A lot of the O.T. does not apply to us....
but don't you believe that some concepts are?

We're speaking here about the concept of seeking God...
Is man capable of seeking God....or is it impossible for man to seek God?

In the O.T. we have many verses that say that we are OBLIGATED to seek God,
and/or that we should.

This follows through into the N.T.

I just copied and pasted as much as I could to show @brighfame that he cannot take
Romans 3:11 and disregard all the passages that say that God does expect man to seek Him.

This is the only reason I posted all those verses. I don't really ever do this.

wondering,

I have grown tired of contemporary Christians using 2 Chron 7:14 to apply to themselves, their church or nation. It was written to apply to the Israelite nation in a certain era.

Certainly there are OT verses that apply to us: Psalms, Proverbs, OT prophecies, & creation.

Oz

 

[Lilac]

can we not only seek something we know? say, He chooses us to be able to believe in Him (say, activate our heart). Then, we are able to seek Him? So, the believer can seek God, after God gave him/ her the 'permission' so to speak? Just a thought.

 

[OzSpen]

You are misrepresenting what I have stated, I have said, all men by nature, under sin doesnt seek after God Rom 3:11. Once a person has been born again, quickened, they seek God. So when we hear of people seeking God in scripture, thats a indication they have been born again, and given a new nature and propensities that seeks after the True God.

Are you confirming your belief that people have to be regenerated BEFORE they can seek God?

 

[OzSpen]

can we not only seek something we know? say, He chooses us to be able to believe in Him (say, activate our heart). Then, we are able to seek Him? So, the believer can seek God, after God gave him/ her the 'permission' so to speak? Just a thought.

Lilac,

That's not what John 12:32 (ESV) teaches: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

So, since Christ's crucifixion and resurrection he draws all people to himself. Obviously not all people respond to his drawing power. They have the power to reject his generous offer.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

He said that we are to be born again...
John 3:3, 5

Born again just means that we have come to know that God is real.....
and if we believe that then we will certainly want to obey Him.

wondering,

In my understanding, John 3:3 and being born again means more than that.

What was Jesus’ reply to Nicodemus? Read v. 3. There are three main points in this verse:

This is the truth. This is the reality. It is literally, ‘Amen, Amen’ or ‘Truly, truly’; It seems strange language to us, but in John’s Gospel, ‘the double amen occurs 25 times and always introduces statements of the greatest weight’.[1]

‘No one’ can see the kingdom of God unless. John does not say, ‘Nicodemus, you can’t see the kingdom of God unless you, Nicodemus….’. The specific language of the Greek uses tis, thus referring to everyone or ‘no one’.

That person is born again.

Why is this verse of such great importance?

There is absolute zero possibility of seeing or entering the kingdom of God without a spiritual re-birth. We know what normal physical birth is. It is the way you and I entered into the world, whether by natural birth or Caesarean section. With our physical birth, we come with the ability to adjust to our world, starting with sucking on mother’s breast, feeding from a bottle, moving up to solids and then crawling before walking.

The NIV translates the Greek word used in verse 3 as ‘born again’. The verb, anōthen, means ‘born from above’ (the word also is used in John 3:7. That’s how it should be understood here. If any person in the world, wants to enter God’s kingdom he or she must be born into that kingdom – born again.

This is what is known as regeneration. Regeneration means ‘a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us; sometimes called “being born again”.[2] John Wesley provided this definition: Regeneration ‘is that great change which God works in the soul when he brings it into life; when he raises it from the death of sin to the life of righteousness’.[3]

It is so easy to rush by and say, ‘the kingdom of God’, but what is it? We know of kingdoms on the earth – the United Kingdom, Denmark is ruled by a queen; Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain & Tonga by kings. Is the USA a kingdom ruled by Joe Biden? No, it’s a republic. Saudi Arabia is ruled by a king, Japan by an emperor. Earthly kingdoms must be furthest from our mind when we speak of the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of God goes back to the beginning of time and it will rule the world until Jesus returns. However, the children of God’s kingdom are heirs by the grace of God that has enabled them to enter this spiritual kingdom.

Born again​

We need to be born again to enter this kingdom. How and when does this re-birth take place? This is where there is some controversy of understanding among Christians or churches. There are two main views:

Some Calvinists: R C Sproul states that ‘a cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: “Regeneration precedes faith”’. He went on to say that ‘we do not believe in order to be born again, we are born again in order that we may believe’.[4] He also stated that ‘in regeneration, God changes our hearts. He gives us a new disposition, a new inclination. He plants a desire for Christ in our hearts. We can never trust Christ for our salvation unless we first desire him. This is why we said earlier that regeneration precedes faith’.[5]

Verses used by these people to support that position include: Acts 13:48; Eph 2:1-9.

Some Arminians: James Arminius, in discussing Romans 7, wrote that ‘true and living faith in Christ precedes regeneration strictly taken, and consisting of the mortification or death of the old man, and the vivification [renewal, bringing to life] of the new man, as Calvin has, in the same passage of his Institutes, openly declared, and in a manner which agrees with the Scriptures and the nature of faith’.[6]

How should we respond? Is being born again (regeneration) before or during salvation? Remember these facts:

To be spiritually ‘dead’ does not mean that a person cannot believe. To be ‘dead’ refers to being separated from God and not annihilation or destruction (see Isa 59:2; Rom 1:20; Col 2:12-13). The image of God in human beings has not been destroyed by the Fall (see Gen 9:6; James 3:9).

Those who are spiritually ‘dead’ can believe. See Eph 2:8 (NIV), ‘For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God’. So faith in Jesus is the means and the result is salvation.

I have not been able to find any verses, when properly interpreted, that state that regeneration comes before faith. Verses that show that faith is prior to salvation include: Luke 13:3; John 3:6-7, 16; Acts 16:31; Rom 3:24-25; Rom 5:1; Titus 3:5-7.

For these biblical reasons, I do not accept that: (1) An unsaved, sinful person is not free to believe, and (2) That being born again (regeneration) is prior to faith.

Oz

---

[1] Lenski (1943:175).
[2] Grudem (1999:492).
[3] See https://quizlet.com/29966057/bible-doctrine-chapter-20-flash-cards/ (2016).
[4] Sproul (1986:72).
[5] Sproul (1986:118, emphasis is Sproul’s).
[6] Arminius (1996:2.498). Available online at: https://www.ccel.org/ccel/arminius/works2.vi.iii.i.html (Accessed 4 February 2017).

 

[OzSpen]

Amen.

SB,

Did God have a different message for the Israelites in Isa 55:6 (NIV), "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near".

Oz

 

[daninthelionsden]

can we not only seek something we know? say, He chooses us to be able to believe in Him (say, activate our heart). Then, we are able to seek Him? So, the believer can seek God, after God gave him/ her the 'permission' so to speak? Just a thought.

Jesus said none can come to the Father except through Him and none can come through Him unless called by the Father, Very thought provoking indeed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Children didn't know the law but their natural head and representative adam did. So God reckons them as having sinned in him. Rom 5:12, all sinned in Adam scripture says!

You're speaking above about imputed sin.
We are not imputed with Adam's sin.
We are responsible only for our own sins.
Do you believe a child could sin?

It seems to me that you concentrate on one verse at a time without taking into consideration ALL of scripture.
I posted several verses that state we are responsible only for our sins, our personal sins.

Here is one again:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Now read Colossians chapter 3 and tell me if you think a child can understand what it states as to how we are to behave.

Now read what Jesus said about children:

Matthew 19:13-15
13Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.
14But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
15After laying His hands on them, He departed from there.

Jesus stated that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those that are like the children that were with Him.
Do you believe Jesus didn't mean that children don't go to heaven?
Jesus said that those that are LIKE THE CHILDREN will go to heaven.
This means that children to go heaven.

Do you know what a sin is?
If so, could you explain how a child could sin...
Thanks.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you confirming your belief that people have to be regenerated BEFORE they can seek God?

Thats correct, thats what I posted ! The natural man under sin doesnt seek after the True God Rom 3:11, he may seek after a god, a god of his own making and understanding, but not the True God.

 

[brightfame52]

You're speaking above about imputed sin.
We are not imputed with Adam's sin.
We are responsible only for our own sins.
Do you believe a child could sin?

It seems to me that you concentrate on one verse at a time without taking into consideration ALL of scripture.
I posted several verses that state we are responsible only for our sins, our personal sins.

Here is one again:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Now read Colossians chapter 3 and tell me if you think a child can understand what it states as to how we are to behave.

Now read what Jesus said about children:

Matthew 19:13-15
13Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.
14But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
15After laying His hands on them, He departed from there.

Jesus stated that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those that are like the children that were with Him.
Do you believe Jesus didn't mean that children don't go to heaven?
Jesus said that those that are LIKE THE CHILDREN will go to heaven.
This means that children to go heaven.

Do you know what a sin is?
If so, could you explain how a child could sin...
Thanks.

Im speaking about Adams federal headship. In Adam all sin and died Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
I think sometimes we spend too much time trying to convince others to believe exactly the same way we do on every point.
I see that happening in churches and all kinds of bible groups.
I've been guilty of that in the past myself, and am working on moving towards just sharing my opinion to be accepted or rejected. We are all in different places in our faith, on this "narrow road" to eternal life, and God is teaching me MORE GRACE and acceptance of others for their choices. I won't be judging anyone on judgmentill be be standing alone day, so I have to remember my place in God's grand scheme of things, and just share in LOVE, without any expectations.

As you said, God knows our hearts, and praise be to God in some areas there is "freedom" to believe and live according to what our hearts and head and the Holy Spirit leads us to understand, not what others WANT US to believe, as we grow and change and mature in our faith.

In the end, we will hopefully stand before Christ at the "bema seat judgment", and our hearts and all we were will speak volumes of love and kindness, and living in His truth.

After 43 years of study and searching, my faith continues to evolve, and my beliefs continue to be modified as God through my continuing studies, brings me to new levels of understanding, now in the MEAT of His word, no longer feeding on the MILK.

I agree with you. I don't carry on about too many topics.
But if we did what you're saying, each thread would be only a few posts long.

Some doctrine is not very important...but some doctrine is.
For instance....I don't think we should believe that children go to hell when it's so clear that
Jesus said that they do not.

The reason some believe babies/children go to hell is because they believe that God chose them
to be saved or lost from the beginning of time. And so,,,this incorrect doctrine has to be brought forward
into every other Christian concept.

Thus....this is not the gospel message of Jesus.
I think it's important to address this.

This does not mean that I believe incorrect doctrine dams a person.
I certainly do not.

But I do believe it's wrong to spread a Christian message that is not
what Jesus intended.

 

[GodsGrace]

You doing it again. I said men naturally born under sin, dont seek after God Rom 3:9-11 ! Thats not my word but Gods
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The word under is important here is prep hypo:

metaphorically, of the efficient cause, as that under the power of

to be under, i. e. subject to the power of, any person or thing: Romans 3:9

Man naturally is under the power of sin until Christ liberates them

Jn 8:34-36

4 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

I agree with all of the above.

 

[GodsGrace]

Im speaking about Adams federal headship. In Adam all sin and died Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Here we go again brightfame.
We all know that Adam is the Federal Headship of the human race.
We all know that an effect of Adam's sin is that we have broken our relationship with God and are born spiritually dead.
We all know that we were supposed to be immortal but now must also die physically, besides spiritually.

So what is your point?
Are you now going to keep repeating this over and over again without understanding what
is being posted to you?

Please explain what you're speaking of in your above post.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Some concepts from OT apply, especially Psalms, Proverbs, prophetic Scriptures and the Book of Origins (Genesis).

This is an excellent article to answer your question - except for one missing point: https://www.gotquestions.org/seeks-God.html

What does it mean that no one seeks God? | GotQuestions.org​

Sadly, this article misses one important verse and that's John 12:32 which states that ALL are drawn to Christ.
Oz

I don't particularly care for gotquestions.
It's a reformed site that pushes that theology.

However, I will read it.....

OK. As usual, it all sounds very nice,,,,but it's not meant the way WE understand it.

Here's one paragraph from that article:

When God saves us, we are born again. He opens our eyes to the truth; He gives us faith and forgiveness and fellowship with Him. We become new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). In our newness of life, we are given godly desires (Psalm 73:25), a cleansed heart (Hebrews 10:22), and a new mind (1 Corinthians 2:16). In the power of the Holy Spirit, we begin to truly seek after God.

Look at the steps to salvation:
1. God saves us.
2. We are born again.

1. God opens our eyes.
2. HE gives us faith.

1. By the power of the Holy Spirit
2. We not begin to seek after God.


It's backwards Oz.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I have grown tired of contemporary Christians using 2 Chron 7:14 to apply to themselves, their church or nation. It was written to apply to the Israelite nation in a certain era.

Certainly there are OT verses that apply to us: Psalms, Proverbs, OT prophecies, & creation.

Oz

2 Chronicles 7:14
11Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD and the king’s palace, and successfully completed all that he had planned on doing in the house of the LORD and in his palace.

12Then the LORD appeared to Solomon at night and said to him, “I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice.
13“If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or if I command the locust to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among My people, 14and My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

It was meant for a specific time...agreed.
I would have to say, however, that this part is pertinent even today:
My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin.

Wouldn't you agree that we are to be humble before God, pray and seek His face, turn from our wicked ways and He will forgive our sin?

Honestly, I don't hear this quoted too much...maybe in Australia it is?

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

Did God have a different message for the Israelites in Isa 55:6 (NIV), "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near".

Oz

Oz,
As I know your aware, Psalm 14 and Psalm 53 are directed toward the enemies of Israel who seek to destroy her. We understand that King David was among the Prophets of God. Psalm 14 can be viewed as a prophesy for the destruction of the first Temple by Nebecanezzer and Psalm 53 can be viewed as prophesy for the destruction of second Temple by Titus.

Isiah 55 is speaking to Gods people as a whole in covenant and prophesies the Messiah.

I since you are trying to make a distinction between the people of God and the enemies of God?

 

[stovebolts]

If I remember correctly, according to the Jews, it is the Jewish mother that determines whether one is Jewish and not the Father. Speaking of bloodline of course.

Correct. In Jewish thought, ones identity comes from the Father, but the essence from the Mother.
Jews have always held Women in extremely high regard.

 

[stovebolts]

Yes Eve is the mother.

Doesn't change the fact that the bloodline is determined by the sperm of the male.

JLB

Yes, you have already stated that. Can you give some scriptural guidance supporting that the bloodline is determined by the sperm of the male?