Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

It HAS a bible basis.
This is what you refuse to accept.

Original Sin is just another name for concupiscence or the flesh or sin nature.
It was given the name original sin because it was the ORIGINAL SIN that Adam committed.

Augustine messed up the whole concept.
He came along 400 years after Jesus died with his strange teaching.
Why are you so obsessed with this?

The CC accepted ORIGINAL SIN when Augustine taught this.
It did NOT wait till the Council of Trent...it was made a doctrine at that time
to combat Protestantism. Why do you think babies began to be baptized before 1500AD??

The Confessions of Faith are of the reformed, or calvinistic, faith.
Can we forget about Calvinism since nothing of what it teaches is biblical?

What you state in your first paragraph is 100% correct and, if I were you, I'd stick to that, except for the fact that you DO have to have a REASON as to why persons sin.

Do 7 year olds lie?
Why?

There is a process of learning right from wrong. Even though children lie that are not sinning until they learn right from wrong. Prov 22:6; Eph 6:4; Heb 5:14 children have to be trained in learning right from wrong. Children are just as capable of telling the truth. So no one has to be born with any kind of nature in order to cause them to do wrong or right.

All of us are born with the ability to obey God but do not know how to go about obeying God until one is first taught, trained in learning right from wrong.

Rom 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

Verses as Rom 2:14 show that man on some conscience level has an innate understanding of right and wrong in regard to some moral issues. The Gentiles did not have God's law telling them murder was wrong but on some conscience level they understood taking a life was morally wrong. Cain, after killing Able, experienced a sense of guilt even though we have no record of God tellng Adam, Eve Cain and Able 'thou shalt not murder'. Thereby proving men are not born with any nature that would have to cause them to sin. Yet the Gentile did not live up to this natural conscience law as the Jew did not live up to the OT law revealed to them, hence both were sinners. Both Gentile and Jew had an idea and understanding of right and wrong, violated it with their free will making them sinners accountable to God.
So again all that is needed to be a sinner is (1) a law, whether be by revelation as the OT and NT law or by nature as with the Gentiles, and (2) a free will to break that law. No nature of any kind is needed for man to be a sinner.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass

I'm sure you will like the following link:
We could discuss it later on when I get back home.

Quotes from the old church fathers where they deny original sin / sinful nature

The pre-Nicene church fathers did not believe in the sinful nature It’s not enough to go back to Luther and Calvin to check the views of the early church, but we must go further back than tha…

bjorkbloggen.com

It further proves my point that the origin of OS is not Biblical. You can go back to pre-Christian era to Judiasm as see the OT law did not teach OS and that the Jews did not themselves believe in the idea of OS.

Am I to believe that the OT law, the Jews, Christ, His Apostles, the NT and the church were all wrong about OS until centuries later when uninspired men, finally got it right?

 

[JLB]

It further proves my point that the origin of OS is not Biblical. You can go back to pre-Christian era to Judiasm as see the OT law did not teach OS and that the Jews did not themselves believe in the idea of OS.

Am I to believe that the OT law, the Jews, Christ, His Apostles, the NT and the church were all wrong about OS until centuries later when uninspired men, finally got it right?

How can you honestly make such a statement?

Christ taught through Paul this irrefutable statement:

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19

• For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

Sin in our physical body was inherited through natural childbirth being passed on from father to son, beginning with Adam


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a process of learning right from wrong. Even though children lie that are not sinning until they learn right from wrong. Prov 22:6; Eph 6:4; Heb 5:14 children have to be trained in learning right from wrong. Children are just as capable of telling the truth. So no one has to be born with any kind of nature in order to cause them to do wrong or right.

All of us are born with the ability to obey God but do not know how to go about obeying God until one is first taught, trained in learning right from wrong.

Rom 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

Verses as Rom 2:14 show that man on some conscience level has an innate understanding of right and wrong in regard to some moral issues. The Gentiles did not have God's law telling them murder was wrong but on some conscience level they understood taking a life was morally wrong. Cain, after killing Able, experienced a sense of guilt even though we have no record of God tellng Adam, Eve Cain and Able 'thou shalt not murder'. Thereby proving men are not born with any nature that would have to cause them to sin. Yet the Gentile did not live up to this natural conscience law as the Jew did not live up to the OT law revealed to them, hence both were sinners. Both Gentile and Jew had an idea and understanding of right and wrong, violated it with their free will making them sinners accountable to God.
So again all that is needed to be a sinner is (1) a law, whether be by revelation as the OT and NT law or by nature as with the Gentiles, and (2) a free will to break that law. No nature of any kind is needed for man to be a sinner.

You're talking about the Natural Law.
God instituted the Natural Law by placing it in man.
Everyone knows that murder is wrong...even without the commandment.

As to children...why do some children never learn?
They just grow up to be criminals.
What could possibly cause a person to be so evil?
Is it sufficient to say that sin has made that person evil?
Or is it something else?

The bible speaks of SINS
and it speaks of SIN.
There's a difference.

 

[GodsGrace]

It further proves my point that the origin of OS is not Biblical. You can go back to pre-Christian era to Judiasm as see the OT law did not teach OS and that the Jews did not themselves believe in the idea of OS.

Am I to believe that the OT law, the Jews, Christ, His Apostles, the NT and the church were all wrong about OS until centuries later when uninspired men, finally got it right?

If you wish to discuss Original Sin, then that's what we would have to discuss.
There is progressive revelation in scripture.
Something that was not understood immediately, MIGHT become more clear as time goes on.

The early fathers knew about sinful man, but did not call it original sin.
Only Augustine called it that. THIS DOES NOT mean that it did not exist before.

The Early Fathers were fighting heretical ideas.
Some claimed God made men good or evil......
Instead THIS is true:

Those who do not do it [good] will receive the just judgment of God, because they had not worked good when they had it in their power to do so. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for they were created that way, nor would the former be reprehensible, for that is how they were made. However, all men are of the same nature. They are all able to hold fast and to go what is good. On the other hand, they have the power to cast good from them and not to do it. (Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37)

Irenaeus goes on to say that all men are born of the same nature...they are born equally.
They can choose what is good or choose what is evil....

What you're saying is that man is born good and born saved.
Then why did Jesus have to die for us?
This would now go into the Atonement theories.

If mankind could be good or evil of his own accord,,,then a Savior was not needed.
You're taking the belief of Pelagius...we can, of ourselves, do nothing to save ourself.

 

[GodsGrace]

It further proves my point that the origin of OS is not Biblical. You can go back to pre-Christian era to Judiasm as see the OT law did not teach OS and that the Jews did not themselves believe in the idea of OS.

Am I to believe that the OT law, the Jews, Christ, His Apostles, the NT and the church were all wrong about OS until centuries later when uninspired men, finally got it right?

The O.T. states that man was born with evil in his heart.
It states that God wants to put a heart of flesh into man and that God will change man's heart.

Does it state in the O.T. (or the N.T.) that man is born a child of God?
Or that man is good?

Matthew 15:19
Jeremiah 17:9
1 Corinthians 2:14 and so many more.....

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

Being FLESHLY .... what does being fleshly mean if not being in sin?
And what would make someone commit the first sin he commits if not this fleshly thing he has?

 

[WIP]

There is a process of learning right from wrong. Even though children lie that are not sinning until they learn right from wrong.

I don't know if I've ever met a child that told a lie at any age and not express that they knew it was wrong. I even see it in very young toddlers when they take something away from another toddler and when caught they get that sheepish look on their face that lets you know that they knew it was wrong.

 

[JLB]

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3



I find it alarming that anyone who is a Christian, could believe and promote the idea that a Christian, is not required to obey the commandments of the Lord to love God and love His children, for salvation.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


That by default means that Christians can hate and murder and lie, treated their brothers and sisters without love, no differently than the world, and still be welcome in God’s kingdom on the Day of Judgement, when we will all stand before our Lord, to give an account.


Obeying the Lord to forgive is also something if ignored will result in our own forgiveness being rescinded.


Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35





JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't know if I've ever met a child that told a lie at any age and not express that they knew it was wrong. I even see it in very young toddlers when they take something away from another toddler and when caught they get that sheepish look on their face that lets you know that they knew it was wrong.

In my last post in regards to Rom 2:14 that appears to show that men are not born totally depraved but have some consciousness of right and wrong. From Rom 7:8-9 people are not held accountable for right and wrong at birth. Upon learning between right and wrong THEN sin springs up.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The O.T. states that man was born with evil in his heart.
It states that God wants to put a heart of flesh into man and that God will change man's heart.

Does it state in the O.T. (or the N.T.) that man is born a child of God?
Or that man is good?

Matthew 15:19
Jeremiah 17:9
1 Corinthians 2:14 and so many more.....

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

Being FLESHLY .... what does being fleshly mean if not being in sin?
And what would make someone commit the first sin he commits if not this fleshly thing he has?

Men BECOME evil, not born evil.

Men of their free will (not by some nature they are born with) freely choose to follow after things of the flesh or things of the spirit.
Paul did NOT say they were born fleshly. They were fleshly for CHOOSING to follow the flesh. They were not forced to follow the flesh against their will by some nature they were born with.

Calvinism claims men are born with a depraved nature that causes men to do wrong. Men therefore cannot do right until God first supernaturally acts upon men whereby then men can be able to choose to do eight. This denies man has free will to choose on his own to either do right or wrong but man has a nature that forces him to do wrong thereby making man a victim of sin and giving man an excuse for his sinning. It also makes God culpable for the lost, it has God solely, randomly choosing winners and losers as to which men will or will not be 'regenerated'.

Yet since men are not born with such a nature, men are accountable for their choices and for their own sins they commit. No one can say when they sin that 'the devil made me do it' or 'my sin nature made me do it' They freely choose to do it and therefore 100% rightly made culpable for those choices.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you wish to discuss Original Sin, then that's what we would have to discuss.
There is progressive revelation in scripture.
Something that was not understood immediately, MIGHT become more clear as time goes on.

The early fathers knew about sinful man, but did not call it original sin.
Only Augustine called it that. THIS DOES NOT mean that it did not exist before.

The Early Fathers were fighting heretical ideas.
Some claimed God made men good or evil......
Instead THIS is true:

Those who do not do it [good] will receive the just judgment of God, because they had not worked good when they had it in their power to do so. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for they were created that way, nor would the former be reprehensible, for that is how they were made. However, all men are of the same nature. They are all able to hold fast and to go what is good. On the other hand, they have the power to cast good from them and not to do it. (Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 37)

Irenaeus goes on to say that all men are born of the same nature...they are born equally.
They can choose what is good or choose what is evil....

What you're saying is that man is born good and born saved.
Then why did Jesus have to die for us?
This would now go into the Atonement theories.

If mankind could be good or evil of his own accord,,,then a Savior was not needed.
You're taking the belief of Pelagius...we can, of ourselves, do nothing to save ourself.

WOW!!!! So you actually are saying everyone had it wrong about OS and sinning for centuries until uninspired men made some decision on it.

Personally, I do not like the term "church fathers' for many errors came from those men as OS, infant baptism, Universalism, etc.

What I have said is man is born neutral not having done any good or evil (Rom 9:11) therefore born in a SAFE position. And if one dies in this safe state he would be saved as David's infant son, 2 Sam 12:23.

Man does have a role in his own salvation;
Acts 2:40 save yourselves
1 Tim 4:16 save thyself
2 Cor 7:1 cleanse ourselves
1 Pet 1:22 you have purified your souls
James 4:8 Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God
etc

And it is up to man to choose to 'save himself', man has to willing to do the will of God John 7:17.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You're talking about the Natural Law.
God instituted the Natural Law by placing it in man.
Everyone knows that murder is wrong...even without the commandment.

As to children...why do some children never learn?
They just grow up to be criminals.
What could possibly cause a person to be so evil?
Is it sufficient to say that sin has made that person evil?
Or is it something else?

The bible speaks of SINS
and it speaks of SIN.
There's a difference.

They learn right from wrong and choose to do wrong, criminal acts. Jesus on the other hand always chose to do what was right. Some choose to continue in doing wrong for so long their conscience become seared (1 Tim 4:2) (not born with a seared conscience) and God will give up on them Rom 1:21-32.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How can you honestly make such a statement?

Christ taught through Paul this irrefutable statement:

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19

• For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

Sin in our physical body was inherited through natural childbirth being passed on from father to son, beginning with Adam


JLB

--Paul does NOT say men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners no more than he said men are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous. The idea of unconditionality is being read into the verse.

--if is is true many were made sinners UNCONDITIONALLY due to Adam, them that same many will UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous due to Christ and you have Universalism.

--no verse teaches men are born with OS (Eze 18:20) much less it is passed from fathers to son.

 

[JLB]

--Paul does NOT say men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners no more than he said men are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous. The idea of unconditionality is being read into the verse.

--if is is true many were made sinners UNCONDITIONALLY due to Adam, them that same many will UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous due to Christ and you have Universalism.

--no verse teaches men are born with OS (Eze 18:20) much less it is passed from fathers to son.

I never mentioned the word “unconditionally”.


Here is my post again.


Christ taught through Paul this irrefutable statement:

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19

• For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

Sin in our physical body was inherited through natural childbirth being passed on from father to son, beginning with Adam


JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I never mentioned the word “unconditionally”.


Here is my post again.


Christ taught through Paul this irrefutable statement:

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19

• For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

Sin in our physical body was inherited through natural childbirth being passed on from father to son, beginning with Adam


JLB

It is being ASSUMED many are made sinner's UNCONDITIONALLY because of Adam's disobedience.

The verse speaks of two truths. If it is true everyone are sinners because of Adam's disobedience then it is equally true everyone will be made righteous because of Christ's obedience (Universalism). OS proponents want 19(a) to be universal in scope but not 19(b). If 19(a) is universal in scope then so is 19(b). This is why 19(b) does not in general get quoted by OS proponents.

Sin or righteousness are not transferable from one person to another. Sinning and righteousness are things DONE. Therefore people are sinners because they do sin and people are righteous because they do righteousness. Calvinism generally has it backwards in saying men are FIRST sinners THEN they go about sinning and men are FIRST declared righteous THEN go about doing righteousness. God does not arbitrarily determine a person to be righteous or unrighteous apart from what a person does. What a person DOES (either righteousness or unrighteousness) determines what a person is.
The physical birth therefore does not determine a person to be righteous or unrighteous (Rom 9:11). There is no example of a person being called a sinner BEFORE they sinned or person being called 'righteous' BEFORE they have done any righteousness.

 

[GodsGrace]

Men BECOME evil, not born evil.

Men of their free will (not by some nature they are born with) freely choose to follow after things of the flesh or things of the spirit.
Paul did NOT say they were born fleshly. They were fleshly for CHOOSING to follow the flesh. They were not forced to follow the flesh against their will by some nature they were born with.

Calvinism claims men are born with a depraved nature that causes men to do wrong. Men therefore cannot do right until God first supernaturally acts upon men whereby then men can be able to choose to do eight. This denies man has free will to choose on his own to either do right or wrong but man has a nature that forces him to do wrong thereby making man a victim of sin and giving man an excuse for his sinning. It also makes God culpable for the lost, it has God solely, randomly choosing winners and losers as to which men will or will not be 'regenerated'.

Yet since men are not born with such a nature, men are accountable for their choices and for their own sins they commit. No one can say when they sin that 'the devil made me do it' or 'my sin nature made me do it' They freely choose to do it and therefore 100% rightly made culpable for those choices.

It seems like you're very affected by Calvinism.
I don't believe Calvinism is biblical and, if you've noticed,
I don't speak about it because it's all not correct as far as I'm concerned.

Depravity is not the same as the sin nature.

I do understand your point.
I just can't reconcile it with Adam and the consequences of his sin.
Don't you think Adam's sin CHANGED our nature?
Not making it EVIL....but not allowing it to be pure anymore.

Please forget about depravity.
No one here is speaking about depravity.

 

[GodsGrace]

WOW!!!! So you actually are saying everyone had it wrong about OS and sinning for centuries until uninspired men made some decision on it.

Personally, I do not like the term "church fathers' for many errors came from those men as OS, infant baptism, Universalism, etc.

What I have said is man is born neutral not having done any good or evil (Rom 9:11) therefore born in a SAFE position. And if one dies in this safe state he would be saved as David's infant son, 2 Sam 12:23.

Man does have a role in his own salvation;
Acts 2:40 save yourselves
1 Tim 4:16 save thyself
2 Cor 7:1 cleanse ourselves
1 Pet 1:22 you have purified your souls
James 4:8 Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God
etc

And it is up to man to choose to 'save himself', man has to willing to do the will of God John 7:17.

I also believe we are born in a safe position,,,
Never said otherwise.

As to the church Fathers....
I don't know what you mean by your first paragraph.
The Early Church Fathers did not speak about O.S. as was put forth by Augustine.
He was in the 400's and I do NOT consider him an ECF.
HE was the one that changed what was believed till then.

The ECFs believed that we DO NOT INHERIT Adam's sin.
Augustine changed that and taught that we DO INHERIT ADAM'S SIN.
THIS IS NOT CORRECT...and no church today believes this.
We DO NOT inherit Adam's sin but only suffer the consequences of his sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

They learn right from wrong and choose to do wrong, criminal acts. Jesus on the other hand always chose to do what was right. Some choose to continue in doing wrong for so long their conscience become seared (1 Tim 4:2) (not born with a seared conscience) and God will give up on them Rom 1:21-32.

OK.
Just tell me at what point do they become responsible for doing wrong?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

OK.
Just tell me at what point do they become responsible for doing wrong?

Since people intellectually mature at different levels, different rates, there is no set point, no set age.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I also believe we are born in a safe position,,,
Never said otherwise.

If men are born with sin, that would being born lost, not safe.

As to the church Fathers....
I don't know what you mean by your first paragraph.
The Early Church Fathers did not speak about O.S. as was put forth by Augustine.
He was in the 400's and I do NOT consider him an ECF.
HE was the one that changed what was believed till then.

The ECFs believed that we DO NOT INHERIT Adam's sin.
Augustine changed that and taught that we DO INHERIT ADAM'S SIN.
THIS IS NOT CORRECT...and no church today believes this.
We DO NOT inherit Adam's sin but only suffer the consequences of his sin.

I don't know which 'church fathers' you are specifically referring to but there are false teachings that exist today that started from some of those men.