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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?
- Thread starter Fastfredy0
- Start date
I’m heading out to run some errands.
I’ll be back later.
I answered your post in post # 4 of this new thread.
I tried to clarify in that post about commandment.
I will also clarify from you other post about faith.
Hopefully it will all dovetail together.
Be blessed. JLB
I’ll be back later.
I answered your post in post # 4 of this new thread.
I tried to clarify in that post about commandment.
I will also clarify from you other post about faith.
Hopefully it will all dovetail together.
Be blessed. JLB
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?
I answer in the negative, NO. (IMO)
This worked based salvation. We are saved by grace alone, by Christ alone, through faith alone. Salvation through works is the roman catholic model; faith is infused into you by your works or the works of the saints. (observation: if salvation REQUIRES 100% obedience, none will be saved for it is NOT POSSIBLE for men to obey 100% of the time in this lifetime). Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Aside: Now, if the question was something like, "you will not fail to see "imperfect obedience" in all Christians" ... this I would agreed to that statement. (James: faith without works is dead)("imperfect obedience" is a subjective term meaning < 100% but more than 0% and defined differently by everyone)
Aside 2: Perhaps the question was meant to be: "Is obeying the Lord and His Commandmentsrequired for a necessary result of salvation?"
I answer in the negative, NO. (IMO)
This worked based salvation. We are saved by grace alone, by Christ alone, through faith alone. Salvation through works is the roman catholic model; faith is infused into you by your works or the works of the saints. (observation: if salvation REQUIRES 100% obedience, none will be saved for it is NOT POSSIBLE for men to obey 100% of the time in this lifetime). Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].
Aside: Now, if the question was something like, "you will not fail to see "imperfect obedience" in all Christians" ... this I would agreed to that statement. (James: faith without works is dead)("imperfect obedience" is a subjective term meaning < 100% but more than 0% and defined differently by everyone)
Aside 2: Perhaps the question was meant to be: "Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments
Jesus kept the commandmenst of God perfectly as son of man. He is the only one who can as He was born without sin in Him and He was "tempted as we are but without sin." His life was lived in perfect obedience, then He paid the price for sin as though He were the sinner. The price for the sins of His people. His righteousness is imputed to believers as though it is our own. We no longer have to meet that perfect obedience to His commands in order to be saved. We only need faith in Jesus. Because of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, we now want to obey Him, are convicted (but not condemned) when we transgress, and as long as we live on earth, we will never be sinless.
jasonc
Member
I was stationed in Louisiana not far from there
LovethroughDove
Member
Yes, it is required.
John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth.
And, he goes on and on about how his sheep hear is voice and the follow and whatnot
The verse I posted: Do what he commands, then you are given the Holy Spirit forever = salvation.
John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth.
And, he goes on and on about how his sheep hear is voice and the follow and whatnot
The verse I posted: Do what he commands, then you are given the Holy Spirit forever = salvation.
Amen. Jesus was without sin.
We agree.
However, Jesus now lives in those who believe, to lead us and guide us in righteousness.
He has given us a new nature that is empowered by the Spirit, to enable us to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walk according to the lustful desires of the flesh.
As a baby Christian we need milk and are developing our ability to be led by the Spirit.
In this phase, our Heavenly Father doesn’t expect as much out of us, as He does out of His more mature sons and daughters.
However, the more we grow in Christ and learn His word, the more He expects more from us.
His commandments are are about love.
Loving God and loving our neighbor.
I believe if we view His commandments this way, they become less intimidating.
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3
This scripture says, His commandments are not burdensome.
Let’s ask ourselves a question.
Is it wrong for God to ask me not to harm His other children?
Is it wrong for God to ask me not to steal from my brother?
Is stealing from my brother, loving him or hating him?
JLB
Where is it in scripture that say we are saved by faith alone?
That’s kind of a misnomer, since faith alone, all by itself is dead.
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:17
This principle is laid out by Paul in Romans.
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10
- with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The confession part is where salvation is realized.
It’s the combination of believing and obeying by which we are saved.
JLB
We are certainly born again, saved, regenerated by grace through faith, in which we are “in Christ”, joined to Him and are one Spirit with Him.
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17
again
But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7
Now that we are saved and “in Christ” we are admonished to remain “in Him”.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
JLB
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Here is the scripture that I used to frame the question.
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9
If we should sin, we can confess our sin, and He will forgive us and cleanse us.
I had to learn that going back to God and confessing the same ole sin, is embarrassing, so I began to seek Him about getting free from it.
I learned their are things we need to do, to stay free from sin, to be free from being a slave to the sinful desires of my flesh.
Peter says it this way —
But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:5-11
Paul —
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8
- he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
JLB
al my ex live in texas
I struggled with this specific commandment, because I didn’t feel I loved God the way He loved me, that I didn’t love God the way I should.
I began seeking Him about this and He revealed to me that keeping His commandments is how we love God, by the way we love His children.
So if you mean I’m not loving God with all my heart because I’m committing adultery with my neighbors wife, then yes I will go to hell, if I don’t repent and confess my sin and be forgiven.
If you mean you don’t love God because to worship idols of Buddha, and serve Buddha then yes you will go to hell if you don’t repent and turn back to God.
If you mean you don’t love God because you don’t feel your love is not strong for Him, then no. Our love grows and matures for Him as we mature.
The way we love others is the way we love God.
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10
JLB
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If a person doesn't love God,,,
HOW could they be born again?
Jesus said:
John 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep my commandments.
Here is another example from scripture that addresses your question.
Can I say I love God, yet if I see a person in need of food or water or something I have, to help them and I withhold it from them?
These words from Christ are powerful.
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46
Whenever I have overcome a certain sin or weakness in my life, the Lord shows me the next one.
Because my desire is to walk with Him and love Him, I am constantly examining my self to see where I need to repent or change.
I have overcome many things in my life that are displeasing to the Lord, and have learned some painful but powerful lessons, along the way.
Still growing and seeking to love Him with all my heart the way Jesus did.
JLB
Fastfredy0
2024 Supporter
I think we have an issue with semantics and not doctrine. The question as posed is "Works based Salvation" as the question uses the word "Required".
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?
Thus, you must obey to be saved. The subtle difference, the way I would state it so as it is now WORKS BASED salvation would be:
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments always present in saved individuals?
Caveat 1: Exception .. conversion on death bed or similar circumstance in which person does not have opportunity to show obedience.
Caveat 2: Perfect Obedience is not possible, observable obedience is always observable but cannot be defined quantitatively.
To this I agree.
We both think, I believe, that all Christians obey. You think obedience is a requirement, I think it is a result of salvation.
Paul and James seemingly contradict yourself. ( I mentioned two of Paul's verses above) Paul seems to be saved by Grace along thru faith alone in Christ alone; James seems to say we are saved by works. I won't try to exegete James .. but the summary is this:
Short summary: Paul states doctrine of how we are justified before God
James states doctrine of how we are justified before Man
FOOTNOTE: Martin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” [he ] failed to recognize that James’s teaching on works complemented—not contradicted—Paul’s teaching on faith. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on the works that exemplify that justification.
If this is not true, we have contradiction ... and God never contradicts himself
Longer Explanation
James contends so earnestly for works that will justify believers before man. It must be remembered, however, that James is here concerned with the appearance that our professions make to the outside world, rather than of our acceptance before God. Men can judge only by the outward appearance, and works alone can justify the Christian profession in man’s sight. God looks on the heart and before Him no works can avail. Before God man must be justified by faith alone. This, James clearly asserts to be true as illustrated in the case of Abraham. (James 2:13 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.)
Aside: I had difficulty with James for a long time. On it's face, I agree that is it supports your thesis; though I never though Paul supported your thesis.
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?
Thus, you must obey to be saved. The subtle difference, the way I would state it so as it is now WORKS BASED salvation would be:
Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments always present in saved individuals?
Caveat 1: Exception .. conversion on death bed or similar circumstance in which person does not have opportunity to show obedience.
Caveat 2: Perfect Obedience is not possible, observable obedience is always observable but cannot be defined quantitatively.
To this I agree.
We both think, I believe, that all Christians obey. You think obedience is a requirement, I think it is a result of salvation.
- Galatians 2:16 Amplified Bible (AMP) yet we know that a man is not justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. And even we [as Jews] have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law. By observing the Law no one will ever be justified [declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty].
- Galatians 5:2 (AMP) Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 Once more I solemnly affirm to every man who receives circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], that he is under obligation and required to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love.
- Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:4–5).
- Paul’s insistence (1) that there is only one gospel—justification by faith alone in Christ’s work alone (Romans 3:27, Romans 3:28; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:4; Galatians 2:16a, Galatians 2:16b; Galatians 3:10, Galatians 3:11, Galatians 3:26; Philippians 3:8a, Philippians 3:8b), (2) that any other “gospel” is not the gospel, (3) that those who teach any other “gospel” stand under the anathema of God (Galatians 1:8, Galatians 1:9), and (4) that those who rely to any degree on their own works for their salvation nullify the grace of God (Romans 11:5–6), make void the cross work of Christ (Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:2), become debtors to keep the entire law (Galatians 5:3), and in becoming such “fall from grace” (Galatians 5:4), that is, place themselves again under the curse of the law. As for the four church fathers named above—and many others like them—it is neither my nor their defenders’ place to assure the Christian world that surely God justified them by faith alone even though they themselves did not hold to a sola fide view of justification
Well, James is going to be a difficult one to explain away (as I assume my verses would be for you).
Paul and James seemingly contradict yourself. ( I mentioned two of Paul's verses above) Paul seems to be saved by Grace along thru faith alone in Christ alone; James seems to say we are saved by works. I won't try to exegete James .. but the summary is this:
Short summary: Paul states doctrine of how we are justified before God
James states doctrine of how we are justified before Man
FOOTNOTE: Martin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” [he ] failed to recognize that James’s teaching on works complemented—not contradicted—Paul’s teaching on faith. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on the works that exemplify that justification.
If this is not true, we have contradiction ... and God never contradicts himself
Longer Explanation
James contends so earnestly for works that will justify believers before man. It must be remembered, however, that James is here concerned with the appearance that our professions make to the outside world, rather than of our acceptance before God. Men can judge only by the outward appearance, and works alone can justify the Christian profession in man’s sight. God looks on the heart and before Him no works can avail. Before God man must be justified by faith alone. This, James clearly asserts to be true as illustrated in the case of Abraham. (James 2:13 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.)
Aside: I had difficulty with James for a long time. On it's face, I agree that is it supports your thesis; though I never though Paul supported your thesis.
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I think your right.
There is a particular word in this mix that may get misunderstood.
Works.
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