Is obeying the Lord and His Commandments required for salvation?

[JLB]

Ok, lets go a bit deeper in this if that is what you want.
First off,
in 1Jn 3:24 which Commandments are being referred to and how many commandments must we keep until (according to you) we are considered to be abiding in Him?

The answer is His Commandments.

The commandments that He teaches us by His Spirit, as we follow Him; as we walk with Him and learn from Him the way Abraham did, 430 years before the law of Moses.


Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5

The Commandments that are written on our heart and mind.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:33-34


There are many such commandments that the New Testament teaches us, of which I have never counted or made a list.


Here are a few.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22



“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:27-30


“Furthermore it has been said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Matthew 5:31-32



“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15


He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:7-8


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10




JLB

 

[JLB]

You mentioned 'initial salvation' , but Scripture reveals just one salvation'' received by faith from first to last.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Commands are all over the place, in the Old Testament or New, but it was Jesus Himself that said ALL of the Law was covered by Loving your Neighbor as you love yourself....Paul said the same thing....

Amen, keeping His commandments is the definition of love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10


If we murder our brother, is that loving him or hating him?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[JLB]

Commands are all over the place, in the Old Testament or New, but it was Jesus Himself that said ALL of the Law was covered by Loving your Neighbor as you love yourself....Paul said the same thing....
1 John 3:23 tells us that Jesus left us with only TWO Commandments—- Believe and Love.Seems simple enough to me.....it encompasses everything that Jesus wants , so I don’t worry about anything else ......I concentrate on those two things and I know I am pleasing God.....I don’t “ believe” to the extent that I should. Neither do I “ Love” as much as I should.....but the monkey is on God’s back, to put it rather crudely. I actually have the Faith to Believe that God will keep His Word—— HE will finish the job that HE started and HE will Save me “ to the UTTERMOST! I Rest in those Promises...

You mentioned 'initial salvation' , but Scripture reveals just one salvation'' received by faith from first to last.
I believe I already said how we remain in Christ...
1 Peter 1:4-5 NKJV
[4] to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
[5] who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 10:27-29 NKJV
[27] My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. [28] And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Amen, I thank you both for discussing these things in a peaceful way, many do not.

Whether we agree or not, I appreciate and love you and I’m greatful for you diligent study of the scriptures, and taking the time to post your beliefs here.




JLB

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Amen, I thank you both for discussing these things in a peaceful way, many do not.

Whether we agree or not, I appreciate and love you and I’m greatful for you diligent study of the scriptures, and taking the time to post your beliefs here.




JLB

A tip of the hat to you also.....for you civility and kindness

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen is required for our salvation, obedience to His Commandments is a necessary fruit of that faith, otherwise salvation is by works.

Salvation is by obedient works in doing God's will.
--no one was saved while remaining in disobedience and rebellion to God's will.
--no one who obeyed God's will is said to have been earning salvation. God made obedience to His will a necessary condition to receiving His free grace thereby obedience cannot earn what has already been freely offered.

 

[crossnote]

The answer is His Commandments.

The commandments that He teaches us by His Spirit, as we follow Him; as we walk with Him and learn from Him the way Abraham did, 430 years before the law of Moses.


Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5

The Commandments that are written on our heart and mind.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:33-34


There are many such commandments that the New Testament teaches us, of which I have never counted or made a list.


Here are a few.

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22



“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:27-30


“Furthermore it has been said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Matthew 5:31-32



“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:14-15


He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Revelation 21:7-8


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10




JLB

You still didn't answer the last part of my question...
'and how many commandments must we keep until (according to you) we are considered to be abiding in Him?'

 

[crossnote]

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

JLB

Yes we will have trials and so you think salvation comes only after a life of obedience to His Commandments?

 

[crossnote]

Amen, I thank you both for discussing these things in a peaceful way, many do not.

Whether we agree or not, I appreciate and love you and I’m greatful for you diligent study of the scriptures, and taking the time to post your beliefs here.




JLB

yes, I realize Greats of the Faith have landed on both sides of this issue.

 

[crossnote]

Salvation is by obedient works in doing God's will.

Again, how much obedience is needed until one is assured of their salvation? Or, according to your view, is assurance even possible?

--no one was saved while remaining in disobedience and rebellion to God's will.

I believe we would all agree; I also believe that one who has been born again would not desire to live in rebellion.

no one who obeyed God's will is said to have been earning salvation.

True, that obedience is only made possible through the grace bestowed on that person.

God made obedience to His will a necessary condition to receiving His free grace thereby obedience cannot earn what has already been freely offered.

We part ways here I believe...
Romans 4:4-6 (KJV) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Again, how much obedience is needed until one is assured of their salvation? Or, according to your view, is assurance even possible?

Belief, repentance, confession and baptism (Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3; Mt 10;32-33; Mk 16:16) is all Christ requires to gain the promise of eternal life. Then to continue to maintain the promise of eternal life one has to continue to walk in the light in order for Christ's blood to wash away all sin 1 John 1:7-10, keep Christ's works (Rev 2:26). Exactly how many commands (works) did Christ give that are to obeyed? I do not know, never tried to add them up.

How many of Christ's command can be disobeyed and yet one still saved? Zero.

I believe we would all agree; I also believe that one who has been born again would not desire to live in rebellion.

No one can be born again while continuing to living in and remain in rebellion to God. To be born again takes obedience.

True, that obedience is only made possible through the grace bestowed on that person.

Grace is not received by anyone BEFORE they obey. It takes obedience first then one can receive grace. Receiving grace is conditional upon meeting the conditions God has put upon it. If grace were UNconditional then every single person would unconditionally be saved Tts 2:11

We part ways here I believe...
Romans 4:4-6 (KJV) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

The "worketh not" Paul refers in the context of Romans chapters 1-4 is the perfect flawless law keeping the OT required for one to be justified. It does not exclude obedience for how can Abraham be one who "worketh not" when in fact he did do obedient works (Heb 11:8,17)? Romans 6:16-18 Paul put obedience before justification. If one is not obeying God he serving 'sin unto death'. Those that obey are serving "obedience unto righteousness". Rom 6:17-18 those who follow Luther's faith only, which are they serving? Sin unto death? Obedience unto righteousness?

 

[crossnote]

Belief, repentance, confession and baptism (Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3; Mt 10;32-33; Mk 16:16) is all Christ requires to gain the promise of eternal life. Then to continue to maintain the promise of eternal life one has to continue to walk in the light in order for Christ's blood to wash away all sin 1 John 1:7-10, keep Christ's works (Rev 2:26). Exactly how many commands (works) did Christ give that are to obeyed? I do not know, never tried to add them up.

How many of Christ's command can be disobeyed and yet one still saved? Zero.



No one can be born again while continuing to living in and remain in rebellion to God. To be born again takes obedience.



Grace is not received by anyone BEFORE they obey. It takes obedience first then one can receive grace. Receiving grace is conditional upon meeting the conditions God has put upon it. If grace were UNconditional then every single person would unconditionally be saved Tts 2:11



The "worketh not" Paul refers in the context of Romans chapters 1-4 is the perfect flawless law keeping the OT required for one to be justified. It does not exclude obedience for how can Abraham be one who "worketh not" when in fact he did do obedient works (Heb 11:8,17)? Romans 6:16-18 Paul put obedience before justification. If one is not obeying God he serving 'sin unto death'. Those that obey are serving "obedience unto righteousness". Rom 6:17-18 those who follow Luther's faith only, which are they serving? Sin unto death? Obedience unto righteousness?

I'm sorry, we are nearly 180 degrees on this issue. Your views are a bit too Pelagian for me to relate to.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry, we are nearly 180 degrees on this issue. Your views are a bit too Pelagian for me to relate to.

Hi crossnote....
I agree with Ernest T. Bass BTW.
But you mentioned being Pelagian....
Who is he and what did he believe?

 

[jerry63935]

Pelagianism, also called Pelagian heresy, a 5th-century Christian heresy taught by Pelagius and his followers that stressed the essential goodness of human nature and the freedom of the human will. Pelagius was concerned about the slack moral standards among Christians, and he hoped to improve their conduct by his teachings. Rejecting the arguments of those who claimed that they sinned because of human weakness, he insisted that God made human beings free to choose between good and evil and that sin is a voluntary act committed by a person against God’s law. Celestius, a disciple of Pelagius, denied the church’s doctrine of original sin and the necessity of infant baptism.
Pelagianism was opposed by St. Augustine, bishop of Hippo, who asserted that human beings cannot attain righteousness by their own efforts and are totally dependent upon the grace of God. Condemned by two councils of African bishops in 416 and again at Carthage in 418, Pelagius and Celestius were finally excommunicated in 418; Pelagius’s later fate is unknown.

 

[JLB]

You still didn't answer the last part of my question...
'and how many commandments must we keep until (according to you) we are considered to be abiding in Him?'

All the commandments He has written on our heart and mind.

Yes we will have trials and so you think salvation comes only after a life of obedience to His Commandments?

Salvation comes at the end of a life of faith; if we endure in the faith to the end.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13


JLB

 

[crossnote]

Hi crossnote....
I agree with Ernest T. Bass BTW.
But you mentioned being Pelagian....
Who is he and what did he believe?

Basically (from Wiki)...
" Pelagianism is a heterodox Christian theological position which holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans have the free will to achieve human perfection without divine grace. Pelagius (c. 355 – c. 420 CE), a British monk, taught that God could not command believers to do the impossible, and therefore it must be possible to satisfy all divine commandments. He also taught that it was unjust to punish one person for the sins of another; therefore, infants are born blameless. Pelagius accepted no excuse for sinful behavior and taught that all Christians, regardless of their station in life, should live unimpeachable, sinless lives. "

 

[crossnote]

But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13

Context shows those who endure the great tribulation (Mt 24) will be saved corresponding with ...
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom 11:26)

 

[JLB]

Context shows those who endure the great tribulation (Mt 24) will be saved corresponding with ...

Exactly.

This is what Jesus taught in the parable of the Sower.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


JLB

 

[crossnote]

Exactly.

This is what Jesus taught in the parable of the Sower.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


JLB

hehe, and here is what Jesus taught His disciples after sending the young ruler went away in despair thinking he could enter heaven by keeping the Commandments...

And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
(Luk 18:26-27)

 

[jerry63935]

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

no matter what this is exactly what we must go by in the words of another preacher.. its a God thing