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Israel vs Jacob

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JohnDB

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For this discussion a more literal word-for-word translation is going to be necessary.
In Genesis after Jacob was on his way back to Canaan. Jacob wrestled with God and was blessed and given the name Israel.

In the account that follows both names are used one at a time. Sometimes Jacob is used when Reuben slept with "Jacob's" wife and "Israel" heard about it. Is just one example. (Genesis 35:22)

There are more... like when Dinah was raped so she could be married and Simeon and Levi killed the men while healing from their circumcision. Israel and Jacob are again both used.

What is the significance of the two names and why were they used when they were used?
 
Is it because names held a significant meaning, and each name appropriately described that aspect of his life?
I don't know...
I'm wondering myself the reason for the usage of the different names. Look at Genesis 49-50. Which name was used when giving the blessing?
 
I don't know...
I'm wondering myself the reason for the usage of the different names. Look at Genesis 49-50. Which name was used when giving the blessing?
Jacob is used to present a picture of struggle, toil and wrestling, while Israel paints a picture of one who has prevailed.

Genesis 49:2 could be read,
Assemble and listen, sons of one who struggles and toils. Listen to your father who no longer toils, but has prevailed.
 
Jeff, I like that! It sounds like "overcomers" was not a new concept when Revelation was written. Further, it instructs us about what we can expect the process to look like. And of course Jesus' words sum it all up best: he who loves his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life shall find it.

Israel prevailed via Jacob losing his struggle against the Lord. I realize a surface reading of the story doesn't look that way, but did the Angel of the Lord Jacob prevailed against go away with such a bad limp he had to rely on a cane for the rest of his life?
 
Jeff, I like that! It sounds like "overcomers" was not a new concept when Revelation was written. Further, it instructs us about what we can expect the process to look like. And of course Jesus' words sum it all up best: he who loves his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life shall find it.

Israel prevailed via Jacob losing his struggle against the Lord. I realize a surface reading of the story doesn't look that way, but did the Angel of the Lord Jacob prevailed against go away with such a bad limp he had to rely on a cane for the rest of his life?
imo when in a wrestling (spiritual ) battle . the victory can be obtained .but not with out a cost on our part .granted ours will not be physical .although it could be if were real stubborn. before jacob could become Israel he had to wrestle with him self. jacob had the limp. not the angel which could be incarnate Christ
 
Jeff, I like that! It sounds like "overcomers" was not a new concept when Revelation was written. Further, it instructs us about what we can expect the process to look like. And of course Jesus' words sum it all up best: he who loves his life shall lose it, and he who loses his life shall find it.

Israel prevailed via Jacob losing his struggle against the Lord. I realize a surface reading of the story doesn't look that way, but did the Angel of the Lord Jacob prevailed against go away with such a bad limp he had to rely on a cane for the rest of his life?
Ha,
Jacob is one who from the womb was striving, and he left a mark on his brothers heel because of it. He strived with the world around him, it's the world he knew. He even makes an agreement with God and basically says, "take care of me, and I will worship you" and then ends up working how many years just to be given the older sister Leah when he loved Rachel. You know the story.
There comes a time when all this striving takes its toll, and we figure out we've been wrestling with God our entire life. Yes, we prevail because we have been chosen, but not without a limp to remind us of our short comings, and to keep us humble.
Like we could actually cause the angel of the Lord to go away with a limp lol!
 
Ha,
Jacob is one who from the womb was striving, and he left a mark on his brothers heel because of it. He strived with the world around him, it's the world he knew. He even makes an agreement with God and basically says, "take care of me, and I will worship you" and then ends up working how many years just to be given the older sister Leah when he loved Rachel. You know the story.
There comes a time when all this striving takes its toll, and we figure out we've been wrestling with God our entire life. Yes, we prevail because we have been chosen, but not without a limp to remind us of our short comings, and to keep us humble.
Like we could actually cause the angel of the Lord to go away with a limp lol!

You can say that again Brother! Lol...

That's the story that rings close to home for me. That's pretty much what the Lord did to me. It keeps me humble like you said.

The Lord wouldn't have had to let these things happen to me, but I was being hard headed and He did want to save me, so, my fault.
 
You can say that again Brother! Lol...

That's the story that rings close to home for me. That's pretty much what the Lord did to me. It keeps me humble like you said.

The Lord wouldn't have had to let these things happen to me, but I was being hard headed and He did want to save me, so, my fault.
Ha, we must be brothers cause I only speak from experience lol!
 
You can say that again Brother! Lol...

That's the story that rings close to home for me. That's pretty much what the Lord did to me. It keeps me humble like you said.

The Lord wouldn't have had to let these things happen to me, but I was being hard headed and He did want to save me, so, my fault.

The real beauty of these OT stories is we all have this same experience in one way or another, sooner or later; even many who haven't yet realized it. This is one way in which we are all Brothers and Sisters in the Lord.

One of the huge Mercies God had upon my life was that I was brought to the point that I had "nowhere to look but up" before I was 20, so I hadn't acquired that much to lose yet, having always been poor. What I did lose was the inner stuff that had always been more important to me, so He really got my attention.
 
imo when in a wrestling (spiritual ) battle . the victory can be obtained .but not with out a cost on our part .granted ours will not be physical .although it could be if were real stubborn. before jacob could become Israel he had to wrestle with him self. jacob had the limp. not the angel which could be incarnate Christ

Right but spiritual warfare is not supposed to be us fighting against God, which is what Jacob did. We have no promise of victory if we oppose God.

Fighting the enemy we're supposed to have no possibility of failure.
 
Right but spiritual warfare is not supposed to be us fighting against God, which is what Jacob did. We have no promise of victory if we oppose God.

Fighting the enemy we're supposed to have no possibility of failure.
many times our warfare is God trying to do something.but devil steps in
 
many times our warfare is God trying to do something.but devil steps in
Or God let's Satan step in, and sometimes the Holy Spirit wont let us do the good works we think God wants us to do.
Maybe you know where this is at in Acts, but doesn Paul say something about wanting to preach the gospel somewhere, but the Holy Spirit prevented it, so he was pushed to go elsewhere against his plans. It all worked out.
I was a deacon at our church, and I thought Satan was blocking me from doing Gods will. After kicking at the goads, I realized it was the Holy Spirit who blocked me.
As a child of God, I realized Satan can only do to me what God allows, and it's for Gods glory.
 
The real beauty of these OT stories is we all have this same experience in one way or another, sooner or later; even many who haven't yet realized it. This is one way in which we are all Brothers and Sisters in the Lord.

One of the huge Mercies God had upon my life was that I was brought to the point that I had "nowhere to look but up" before I was 20, so I hadn't acquired that much to lose yet, having always been poor. What I did lose was the inner stuff that had always been more important to me, so He really got my attention.
Amen, I enjoy your insight. I can relate to what you've said. I grew up dirt poor, and God is still working on my inner stuff.
 
I grew up dirt poor, and God is still working on my inner stuff.

I laugh at myself, how I say Southern Gospel isn't my favorite style, yet so often refer to a southern Gospel song that expresses a thought so well. Here's another one that if nothing else will bless Ezra:
God's still working on me, by the Cathedrals, on YouTube

It's part of that "river" that flows in the beginning of Genesis straight through to Revelation, which is all about God's work on all of us, that we can never do ourselves: (Isaiah 45:21)
I can't begin to tell you how many times the intercessory burden of the Lord has been lifted in prayer by referring to this as "His ancient work" and inviting Him into a difficult situation to do it, even though Scripture never uses quite that verbiage ...
 
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Just spitballing ideas here for discussion.

The name "Jacob" has a literal meaning of heel grabber which was a euphemism for "con-artist" or supplanter. And where Jacob in many ways did express his own character in doing things a con artist does...it really didn't define him. Other emotions did define him. He was an extremely passionate man. And his passions did overrule his sanity at times.
He worked for 14 years to get the wife he wanted.
He sought after his brother's birthright because he felt like his brother didn't deserve it. (Esau was a "party animal" that shirked his duties. The whole "house of Isaac was relieved when the sale for a bowl of red lentils happened) Jacob took advantage of the situation.

Rebecca also favored Jacob. The blessing that Jacob "supplanted" was actually the "double portion" of inheritance (money and goods) and the "Seed of the Woman" that was talked about and sought after.

Now when Jacob was working for Labaan he was doing his best using "voodoo witchcraft" to try to get the goats to breed for Labaan. But it didn't work and God blessed Jacob instead. Each time Labaan tried to "renegotiate" their deal God always blessed Jacob more.

Finally Jacob accepted his role as a con-artist and snuck out with the wives and goats. The wives stole Labaan's "idols/terraphim" which were the property deeds to Labaan's properties.

Then finally he meets The Angel. He names the place...that's the second time he names something. The dream with the ladder was the first.

Israel literally means he struggles with God. But to them all it's a good thing because Jacob doesn't die.

But the verse you are quoting there StoveBolts is prophecy relating to his own physical death...I'm sure that Jacob knew he was going to die...he was rather old and frail at this point. He was stating the obvious. His struggles were over.

How can his grandfather Abraham who was God's friend depreciate into a struggle with him?

And how again are the names used?
It doesn't seem to be a positive in either case. Jacob has a wrestling/adversarial relationship with God...a con artist...

The prophecy starts out by calling his sons "Sons of Jacob". Even Joseph...but instead of granting Joseph a double portion he instead adopts both Ephraim and Manasseh (the younger brother)

So...there's something there and I haven't figured it out yet.
 
Wait, Ephraim and Manasseh were adopted?!? I thought they were actually Jacob's children? And twins? (Just going off the top of my head here)

Part of what's going on is the names! When Patriarchs built an altar, God had basically just "become" something new not just to that individual, but to all mankind. No God didn't change, but He did reveal Himself in some new way; and the person receiving that revelation wanted to make it permanent, which was part of why they built the altar. And it worked! All who passed that way afterwards saw it, and pondered on what it meant.

So studying the meaning of those names is always a good thing! Plus, we can correctly say that "the Name of God" is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That really is very specific, too.
 
Wait, Ephraim and Manasseh were adopted?!? I thought they were actually Jacob's children? And twins? (Just going off the top of my head here)

Ephraim and Manasseh were Joseph's children. Ephraim was firstborn too.

Notice that Benjamin (Joseph's maternal brother) is a tribe while he is not.

Joseph and Benjamin were both favored sons of Jacob's because of who their mother was.
Joseph couldn't receive a "double portion" as firstborn. That went to Judah because Reuben (the actual firstborn) was unfit. (He slept with stepmom)
But Jacob wanted to reward Joseph somehow for saving the whole family. So Jacob adopted both of Joseph's sons and gave each of these adopted sons a portion of inheritance.
 
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