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JLB discusses speaking in tongues
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Noted but not as a 2nd work of grace. The full event below. There is no teaching or record of those born anew of the Spirit to seek such a additional baptizm of the Spirit. These disciples did not have the Spirit of Christ in them. Like Nicodemus they were ignorant of this new birth. And if they received Johns baptism then its highly likely these disciples were Jews.
As a method of being born of the Spirit. But many receive the Spirit alone. That is God can give the Spirit without the speaking of tongues and prophesying. Me included. And its the same Spirit as the Apostles received at the beginning. And its a inward filling. Christ in us.
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues b and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
Historical evidence of speaking in tongues in the early church from the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, Chrysostom of Constantinople, and Augustine of Hippo…
A.D. 33 - The day of Pentecost:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4
A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46
A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6
A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all."1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
"THIS IS THAT..."
"But Peter... lifted up his voice and said: This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."ACTS 2:16-17
What is "this"? This is what happened in the upper room on that first Pentecostal Sunday:
- The fire of God appeared.
- The sound of God's Spirit was heard.
- They were all filled.
- They all spoke in tongues.
Not a word from the Old or New Testaments suggests that this outpouring would be limited to one day. Bible teaching is to the contrary:
- The experience was for all (JOEL 2:28).
- Tongues was to be the sign (See MARK 16:17; ISAIAH 28:11-12; 1 CORINTHIANS 14:21).
- The experience was seen and heard (ACTS 2:33).
- It was continued throughout all generations (ACTS 2:39).
JLB
Kkamagwi
Member
Only if a person is born again, from above, is made over into a new creature, can they enter into God's kingdom which Jesus preached. Without such rebirth, taking part in God's joys is not possible. No one can be saved unless they're reborn.
Nicodemus believed that he could be saved by the Law. His view is shared by millions today. Christ's demand differs from that notion. It brings down self-righteousness and pride. It insists upon a change in a person's moral condition, a transformation which is seen in a new lifestyle, so that such a person is a new person. Without such regeneration no one can enter into God's kingdom.
Nicodemus believed that he could be saved by the Law. His view is shared by millions today. Christ's demand differs from that notion. It brings down self-righteousness and pride. It insists upon a change in a person's moral condition, a transformation which is seen in a new lifestyle, so that such a person is a new person. Without such regeneration no one can enter into God's kingdom.
Its not about speaking in Tongues. Its about being born anew by the Spirit of God. Christ in us. As in did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
Speaking in tongues is about signs given not about salvation. Being born anew is about a new creation in regard to our "being"
There is no 2nd work of grace that changes our "being" as in a new creation.
Randy
ezra
Member
i am not convinced that the tongues in acts is what is being used today. the tongues i have been in service in i could not understand what was being said maybe a total of 3 or 4 times i have heard a interpretation tongues was used by one person silence then the interpretation . in acts 2 :
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there " appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire," and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
i have never spoke in tongues ..i am some what on the fence with them.. but will tell someone they are wrong for it... yes i have heard several teachings on tongues .. but me personally do not see it as a baptism but a gift .. when one is service and there is room full of gabbering it creates confusion. to be filled with the spirit means just that and it is a continuing process
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there " appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire," and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
i have never spoke in tongues ..i am some what on the fence with them.. but will tell someone they are wrong for it... yes i have heard several teachings on tongues .. but me personally do not see it as a baptism but a gift .. when one is service and there is room full of gabbering it creates confusion. to be filled with the spirit means just that and it is a continuing process
John 1:12 is present tense.
Romans 8:14; "because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
That's present tense.
That blows all your reasoning out of the water.
(I hope I don't get this post eliminated without explanation like my last post did.)
Here is what I quoted from you -
This stated is completely and utterly a false statement.
Why would would you say such a thing ?
Dude, if your here to just to deny what’s going n the New Testament, or what the Church Fathers taught, then please don’t waste my time.
I’m here to share truth from the scriptures.
I have no desire to argue with you and try and chase you around and around as you just deny what is a foundational truth of the Christian life.
Here is what the Apostles taught.
If you don’t want the baptism of the Holy Spirit then so be it. I’ll leave you to yourself.
Evidence of Speaking in Tongues in the Early Church
Historical evidence of speaking in tongues in the early church from the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, Chrysostom of Constantinople, and Augustine of Hippo…
A.D. 33 - The day of Pentecost:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4
A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46
A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6
A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all."1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
"THIS IS THAT..."
"But Peter... lifted up his voice and said: This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."ACTS 2:16-17
What is "this"? This is what happened in the upper room on that first Pentecostal Sunday:
- The fire of God appeared.
- The sound of God's Spirit was heard.
- They were all filled.
- They all spoke in tongues.
Not a word from the Old or New Testaments suggests that this outpouring would be limited to one day. Bible teaching is to the contrary:
- The experience was for all (JOEL 2:28).
- Tongues was to be the sign (See MARK 16:17; ISAIAH 28:11-12; 1 CORINTHIANS 14:21).
- The experience was seen and heard (ACTS 2:33).
- It was continued throughout all generations (ACTS 2:39).
JLB
ezra
Member
that should read will not tell someone they are wrong
stovebolts
Member
With all due respect, these are the types of words we are trying to discourage.
I understand that you are a man of God with incredible zeal for Gods word. However, you cannot speak to another Brother in Christ like this simply because he sees this differently.
We all need to learn how to extend charity toward one another and give each his space.
I need your help with this.
The context of my statement was those who were born of God already have the Spirit. They did not need to seek a 2nd work of grace. Clearly the examples you give are those who are receiving the Holy Spirit via baptism. And the speaking in tongues was about signs given. What other purpose would there be as the inward circumcision is what counts? Many signs and wonders were given in the beginning in a world with many false Gods and pagans. That was proof of the one true God.
Such signs were together with receiving the Spirit.
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
This is what was taught. As you show signs were also given of this new birth in some cases.
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise belongs to you and to your children and to all who are far off, to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
Those who received the Spirit were not directed to seek a 2nd work of grace that changes their being.
Here is your statement that I quoted.
I made no reference about the baptism with the Holy Spirit being about salvation.
Again, here is my response to your statement of there being “no teaching or record” of those born anew to seek such an addditional baptism.
Evidence of Speaking in Tongues in the Early Church
Historical evidence of speaking in tongues in the early church from the writings of Eusebius, Irenaeus, Chrysostom of Constantinople, and Augustine of Hippo…
A.D. 33 - The day of Pentecost:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come they were all with one accord in one place... And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." ACTS 2:1-4
A.D. 41 - At Caesarea:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." ACTS 10:44-46
A.D. 54 - At Ephesus:
"And it came to pass that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost... And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." ACTS 19:1-6
A.D. - At Corinth:
"Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of Spiritual gifts, see that ye may excel to the edifying of the church... Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret... I thank my God that I (Paul) speak with tongues more than ye all."1 CORINTHIANS 14:12-18
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
"THIS IS THAT..."
"But Peter... lifted up his voice and said: This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; and it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."ACTS 2:16-17
What is "this"? This is what happened in the upper room on that first Pentecostal Sunday:
- The fire of God appeared.
- The sound of God's Spirit was heard.
- They were all filled.
- They all spoke in tongues.
Not a word from the Old or New Testaments suggests that this outpouring would be limited to one day. Bible teaching is to the contrary:
- The experience was for all (JOEL 2:28).
- Tongues was to be the sign (See MARK 16:17; ISAIAH 28:11-12; 1 CORINTHIANS 14:21).
- The experience was seen and heard (ACTS 2:33).
- It was continued throughout all generations (ACTS 2:39).
This is what the early Church taught.
JLB
Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19
- Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
- They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
What did these Christians receive when the Apostles laid hands on them ?
JLB
Me to and I didn't receive the HS when I was baptized as a baby.
Many outward signs were given in those early days as a testimony bringing glory to Jesus.
So you believe they received Christ in them through the laying on of the Apostles hands?
They had already been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
- They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
- Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
- They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
JLB
Yes, I believe the purpose in cases you cited ,(laying on hands), was so they would receive the Spirit as it was stated the Spirit had not yet come upon them.
How can one who has the Spirit of Christ in them state they had NOT received the Spirit?
It is possible for people to be baptized in the name of Jesus and not to have received the Spirit. It is possible for those who have received the Spirit to never have spoken in tongues or prophesied. Since Born of God is something God does then the reasons are only known to Him. Such things are according to His will and His purposes. Not mans will or mans purposes.
I do not find a 2nd work of grace subsequent to regeneration that changes one's being as in the new new creation.
Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
If the answer is yes then there is no need to seek another baptism from God.
Let’s walk through this line upon line.
And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20:22
At this point, did they have the Spirit of Christ in them?
JLB
Why would Paul ask this, if we automatically were baptized with the Holy Spirit when we believed?
Can a person be baptized with the Holy Spirit before they are born again?
JLB