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Bible Study John 1:1-3 A proper translation

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This is a perfect example of text manipulation to prove one's point. Now watch how I will get all of this down.


Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.

Pslam 16: A miktam of David. This pslam clearly regards David and not Jesus. Another thing - what proof do you have that Jesus resurrected? Because then you could say the same about Iulius Caesar, Mitra, Osiris and many others - you have no proof except your religious scripture, which is not necessarly based on facts, but is rather made to confirm one's faith, not their view on history.

Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.

Pslam 22: A psalm of David. Person os David has nothing to do with Jesus in here - he has not even been of royal descent - he is not heir or David even in a tiniest bit. He simply quotes this psalm because he considers himself in the same position as once David has been - nothing to do with subject of being a messiah.

Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.

Once again - this is psalm of David, it has nothing to do with Jesus. Why do you try so hard and manipulate the text?

Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.

David =/= Jesus. Manipulation once again.

Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.

Isaiah's prohpecy is about Immanuel, messiah in the time of king Ahaz, not about Jesus - see the difference? Why do you manipulate the biblical text? It's a double-edge sword. Pslam 22 talks about David's fate - not about Jesus. It talks about evil men piercing his hands and feet - the same evil men who has encircled him, you maniulate it to state that encircled by evil men means surrounded by 2 thieves - but did those thieves pierce Jesus limbs? No, they did not.

Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus' hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.

Zech 12:10 talks about victory of Jerusalem, Israel over its enemies, not about Jesus.

Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.

Once again - Psalm 22 speaks of David, not Jesus. Where is there even his name mentioned? Nowhere - but David's is...

Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus' garments among them.

Same thing - manipulation of the text by you.

Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus' garments.

Ditto.

Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.

I still don't understand how you can confuse David with Jesus several times in a row. Read the psalmic text without prejudism, you will understand you are changing its true meaning. Hosea 6 speaks of the nation of Israel, not about Jesus. Also, word "yom" is indefinite word - it may mean several diffrent time spans - this is to be understood metaphorically, not literally.

Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus' bones were broken.

" Of David. When he pretended to be insane before Abimelech, who drove him away, and he left." This clearly speaks of David - no way to not see that. You manipulate Bible on purpose, is this how Christians are supposed to behave?

Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - He will be betrayed by a friend - Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 - Jesus was betrayed by a friend.

"Even my close friend, whom I trusted,
he who shared my bread,
has lifted up his heel against me."

Either Jesus was not omniscient as Christians claim or it is not directed at him (it is not directed at him by the way).

Psalm 55:5: "Let death take my enemies by surprise;
let them go down alive to the grave,
for evil finds lodging among them.

Ah, so this would be the reason for Crusades and Inquisition, since this was regarding Jesus and not David - now I understand, blessed be the killers in the name of Jesus!

Psalm 68:18 - He will ascend into heaven - Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 - Jesus ascended into heaven.

"When you ascended on high, " - does stating that I have a house in the mountains makes it equal of me stating I have a place in Heaven? Nope, it does not - another manipulation by you.

Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.

"Our God is a God who saves;
from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death"

This is not even talking 'bout a specific person, not even about David - it speaks of power of God's will - not about abilities of one man, Jesus.

Psalm 69:21 - they will give Him vinegar to drink - Matt. 27:34,48; Mark 15:23,36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 - they gave Jesus vinegar to drink.

First of all - it speaks of David, of present times. No psalm is to be understood as a prophecy, that makes it imossible to speak of future events. Second - viegar was drunk daily by Israelities, what's so special about it? Does me drinking tea make me Queen Elisabeth? Didnd'tknow it does, oops - it doesn't.

Psalm 110:1 - He will sit at the right hand of God - Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 - Jesus sits at the right hand of God.

The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

It speaks of David - David is said to stay peaceful because God will defeat his enemies for him.

Isaiah 50:6 - He will be spat upon - Matt. 26:67; Mark 15:19 - Jesus was spat upon.

" Israel's Sin and the Servant's Obedience" - that explains everything. Psalm 50 speaks of Nation of Israel, not about one person.

Isaiah 50:6; Mic. 5:1 - the ruler of Israel's cheek will be struck - Matt. 26:67; Luke 22:63; John 18:22 - Jesus was so struck and beaten.

Not Israel's ruler's - but Israel's, it's a metaphore, if you didn't understand. Anyways - Jesus wasn't the ruler of Israel, so even if it would be a prophecy, which it is not, and even if it would regard one, single person - it wouldn't be in regards to Jesus because Jesus, simply, wasn't the ruler of Israel, was he?

Isaiah 53:5; Zech. 13:6 - He was wounded, bruised and scourged for us - Matt. 27:26; Mark 15:15; John 19:1 - Jesus was wounded, bruised and scourged for us.

It is not a prophecy, it speaks of what has already happened and not will happen - it probably speaks of David, certainly not Jesus.

If Jesus is the person spoken of in Zech 13:6, then he is a false prophet because this is what this text talks about:

""On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

2 "On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother, to whom he was born, will say to him, 'You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD's name.' When he prophesies, his own parents will stab him.

4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision. He will not put on a prophet's garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 He will say, 'I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth. [a] ' 6 If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body ?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'"

Also, this passage speaks of Messianic Era, this is yet to come (Era of peace, WW1 and WW2 indicate somethng opposite to me).

Isaiah 53:7 - He will remain silent before His accusers - Matt. 27:12,14; Mark 14:61;15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9 - Jesus remained silent before His accusers.

This passage is not a prophecy, as I already cleared up - it talks about past events. If this would be in the NT, I would understand it talking of Jesus, but this is OT - certainly is not about him.

Isaiah 53:8-10; Dan. 9:26 - the anointed one shall be cut off and die - Luke 23:46; 24:7; John 19:30 - Jesus the Messiah died.

Ditto. As for Dan 9:26 - Jesus did not fulfill any of the prophecies, he cannot be considered the Annointed One.

Isaiah 53:9 - He will be buried in a rich man's tomb - Matt. 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; Luke 23:50-53; John 19:38-42 - Jesus was buried in a rich man's tomb (the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).

"He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth."

This claims he will lie with rich and wicked him being rightenous - it does not say he will be burried in rich man's tomb.

Isaiah 53:12 - He will make intercession for the transgressors - Luke 23:34,43 - Jesus made intercession for the transgressors on the cross.

I'll leave this without a comment - explained this alot in this post, hope you will grasp already.

Amos 8:9 - God will darken the earth at noon - Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45 - there was darkness at noon at Jesus' crucifixion and death.

Yeah, and Peter's shadow healed people - do you really believe those folktales? Anyways - Amos 8:9 talks about The World to Come, not about Jesus crucification.

Jonah 1:17 - three nights and days in the belly of the whale foreshadows Jesus' death and rising on the third day.

First of all - Jesus was not dead for 3 days and 3 nights - that's a detail, to you, I suppose. Second - this could also foreshadow Pinokio's father's journey to the belly of a whale...

"But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah"

It speaks of Jonah, not about Jesus and is not a prophecy at all - another manipulation by you, bravo!

Mic. 1:8 - He will lament and wail, and will go stripped and naked - John 19:23-24 - Jesus lamented and was stripped and naked.

"Because of this I will weep and wail;
I will go about barefoot and naked.
I will howl like a jackal
and moan like an owl."

It speaks of YHWH's judgement over Samaria and Jerusalem - not about a human person.

Zech. 11:12-13 - He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Matt. 26:15 - Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.

This speaks of shepards, is not a prophecy and does not mention Judas at all - enough?

Zech. 11:13 - the pieces of silver are cast into God's house - Matt. 27:5 - Judas threw the pieces of silver into the Temple.

Ditto.

Zech. 12:10 - His side will be pierced - John 19:34, 37 - Jesus' side was pierced.

Ditto.

Zech. 13:7 - He will be forsaken by His disciples who will scatter - Matt. 26:31, Mark. 14:50 - Jesus' disciples forsook Him and scattered.

Explained already.

Is Jesus referred to in the Bible: http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=276&o=534,

why don’t Jews believe that Jesus was the messiah?: http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=227&o=350,

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=276&o=531,

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=276&o=2055290,

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=227&o=2061705,

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=194&o=196656,

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=227&o=18731.
 
+JMJ+

Thankyou for your responses.

I just wanted to point out that these are the prophecies concerning Christ's death. I have others concerning his messainic mission. When you are prepared for those let me know.

Pslam 16: A miktam of David. This pslam clearly regards David and not Jesus. Another thing - what proof do you have that Jesus resurrected? Because then you could say the same about Iulius Caesar, Mitra, Osiris and many others - you have no proof except your religious scripture, which is not necessarly based on facts, but is rather made to confirm one's faith, not their view on history.

I'm kind of pressed for time. So I will just answer this one for now.

I do actually have some proof.

If Jesus was not the Messiah, why would all (Except one, which Jesus prophecied would not die a martyrs death) of the Apostles die for a lie?

When Jesus was apprehended in the Garden, all the apostles fled (Zecharia 13:7 ). They ran away like cowards.

Yet, for some reason these same men were suddenly willing to die. Something had to have transpired for this change of heart.

Think about this:

Your leader is taken away by guards. In fear, you run away. You then hide yourself from anyone that might recognise you as a follower of this man.

You learn your leader is dead.

You never see him again. Would you still be willing to die for Him?
 
I just wanted to point out that these are the prophecies concerning Christ's death. I have others concerning his messainic mission. When you are prepared for those let me know.

They are not prophecies concurning Jesus' death becuse a) they are not prophecies at all, b) if they truely are prophecies, Jesus didn't fulfill them anyways (read articles at askmoses.com for data). Just because you think that way, doesn't make it so.

I do actually have some proof.

Then you should start presenting that proof because currently you have showed nothing, but textual manipulations on your side=].

If Jesus was not the Messiah, why would all (Except one, which Jesus prophecied would not die a martyrs death) of the Apostles die for a lie?

What does it have to do with person of messiah? Messiah wasn't supposed to be a deity, his power didn't lie in miracles, he wasn't meant to convert people to his faith by doin' miracles nor by making prophecies.

They died in martyrs not because they were heretics (which they were), but because they tried to convert rightenous Jews to their faith. Jesus died because he was a false prophet in the eyes of Jews, his problem was that he has never claimed to be a messiah, his disciples did, and that led him to death.

When Jesus was apprehended in the Garden, all the apostles fled (Zecharia 13:7 ). They ran away like cowards.

It talks about false prophets - is it what you started to call Jesus when I explained these verses to you? If you read it in the context of Zech 13:1-6 - you wil notice that Zech 13:7 is the wrath of YHWH on the false prophet.

Yet, for some reason these same men were suddenly willing to die. Something had to have transpired for this change of heart.

What about Stalin, Hitler? Were they messiahs, too? That's called charisma. You could sum it up with these words: "The most loyal convert the last, but they stay loyal no matter what, no matter to what cause".

Your leader is taken away by guards. In fear, you run away. You then hide yourself from anyone that might recognise you as a follower of this man.

You learn your leader is dead.

You never see him again. Would you still be willing to die for Him?

Ditto.
 
KaerbEmEvig said:
You still don't understand. No Jew accepted him for fulfilling prophecies.

I think I have a pretty good handle on it....last time I checked all of the disciples/Apostles were Jews....I think they recognized that Jesus was the prophecied one...


One of those prophecies was Israel raigining in power = thus getting rid of Romans. Jesus' disciples believed in him because he performed miracles - Deutronomy clearly states that is NO REASON to believe someone to be messiah.

In Jewish eschatology, they expect 2 Messiah's the first, Messiah ben Joseph (the one the call the suffering servant). Does that sound familiar? The 2nd Messiah (Messiah ben David) the conquering King....The disciples recognized Jesus as Messiah ben Joseph and also as the future Messiah ben David...when in the future was the question.

YHWH will send false prophets that can perform miracles to test Jewish faith in heart.

Yes in the future especially....In Revelation, the "false Elijah" will perform counterfiet miracles that will announce the "false Messiah".

Jewish messiah isn't some weird imgainated picture of a messiah made up later on by Christians. Jewish messiah is simply future king - word used in the way 'dolphin' is used in Europe for kingship successors. Jesus didn't fit in as a messiah - so they didn't consider him one. Messiah isn't someone who will perform humanity salvation by his death.

Ah...Yes he did....do a little reseach on Jewish eschatology and "Messiah ben Joseph" and you should be typing a different tune... :)
For future referrence: askmoses.com on messiah topic. You can read about prohpecies and use of messiah word. You will see how way off topic you are.

Doubtfull....not that way off... 8-)
 
I think I have a pretty good handle on it....last time I checked all of the disciples/Apostles were Jews....I think they recognized that Jesus was the prophecied one...

Jesus' disciples were from Galilea, they were uneducated and did not understand that miracles performing =/= messiah. As I have cleared up - Jesus did not fulfill prophecies. For more data visit askmoses.com or any site threating about this subject.

In Jewish eschatology, they expect 2 Messiah's the first, Messiah ben Joseph (the one the call the suffering servant). Does that sound familiar? The 2nd Messiah (Messiah ben David) the conquering King....The disciples recognized Jesus as Messiah ben Joseph and also as the future Messiah ben David...when in the future was the question.

I think you will have to work on your reading comprehension. Two messiahs theory has been established after Jesus' life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Messiah_Son_of_Joseph

Here is list of messiah claimants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

Yes in the future especially....In Revelation, the "false Elijah" will perform counterfiet miracles that will announce the "false Messiah".

First of all - we are talking about Judaism here, Jewish text and not Christian ones. Jesus' lifetime was 'future', if you understand when those laws have been recorded. False prophet passage can certainly talk about him, too - because he fits there in every aspect: a) doin' miracles, b) not fulfilling prophecies, c) blasphemy.

Ah...Yes he did....do a little reseach on Jewish eschatology and "Messiah ben Joseph" and you should be typing a different tune... :)

read the article at wikipedia.org and you will understand it is not - just because you have been told those lies doesn't make it so. Ask any Jew who a messiah will be - he will tell you 7 'things' a messiah has to do, to be one.

Doubtfull....not that way off... 8-)

Very way off topic, sorry.
 
Luke was half Greek.

The Apostle Paul was not Jewish. He was an Israelite - a Benjamite of the tribe of Benjamin and not of the tribe of Judah.

Romans 11:1 and Philippians 3:5.

R7-12
 
Georges said:
The Christian Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

The Jewish Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (Memra), and the (Memra) was with Jehovah, and the (Memra) was Elohim (part of the heavenly group including Jehovah, Messiah, and angels).
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by the (Memra); and without the (Memra) was not any thing made that was made.


The Shema:

The Christian Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

The Jewish Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah


The correct words with the correct definition change the whole interpretation.....

Except from a paper I'm composing regarding the false assumption that the Shema is proof of the trinity....

Terms for the names Jehovah, God, and God as defined in Judaism:
1. Jehovah: YHWH
Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh ( ), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah".
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ( ).
Note (GWS): Jehovah (Yahweh, YHVH) is also known as El when YHVH is not to be used. Yahweh is the personal name of God that separates him from the Elohim (sons of God).
2. God: Elohim
….In the Levantine (ancient Middle East) pantheon, the Elohim are the sons of El the ancient of days (olam) assembled on the divine holy place, Mount Zephon (Jebel Aqra). This mountain, which lies in Syria, was regarded as a portal to its heavenly counterpart. The Elohim are ruled by the El called Hadad the most high (elyon) who was known among the common people as "the master" ("Baal"). Assembled on the holy mountain of heaven and ruled by one, the pantheon (Elohim) acts as one.
….A common name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Elohim (Hebrew: אלהים); as opposed to other names mentioned in this article, this name also describes gods of other religions.
….Despite the -im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, the word Elohim, when referring to God is grammatically singular, and regularly takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible. It is argued that the word elohim had an origin in a plural grammatical form. When the Hebrew Bible uses elohim not in reference to God, it usually takes plural forms of the verb.
Note (GWS): The first paragraph is given in reference to terms related to the geographic area. It is employed here to show the hierarchy of the Elohim. The Elohim are the sons of El, and are ruled by him. The second paragraph affirms that God, when the verse is inferring singularity, is part of the Elohim (as the leader of the divine group). The third paragraph states that Elohim, when used in plurality, refers to a “divine group†(i.e. angels et al) and may include God as the verse needs.
3. God (Yahweh): EL
The word El ( ) appears in Hebrew, as an ordinary name of God. It is used in both the singular and plural, both for other gods and for the God of Israel.
Note (GWS): EL is Yahweh (YHVH) who is the Christian Jehovah. Yahweh (Jehovah) is part of the Elohim (the sons of El) as their ruler, yet the Elohim (the sons of El) are not Yahweh (Jehovah). To the ancient Israelites, it was forbidden to call God by his personal name. To prevent an accidental breaking of the 4th commandment, they called him by descriptive titles…one of these title names for YHVH is EL SHADDAI which translates as Almighty God. EL (Jehovah) SHADDAI (Almighty) would be used instead of YHVH SHADDAI.
4. One: Echad
(GWS) In regard to the verse above, One (Echad), doesn’t mean that Jehovah and Elohim are One, as in “one and the same†rather, One refers to “Number Oneâ€Â, the First in Order, the First in Hierarchy. In other words Jehovah is the Leader of the Elohim. This verse is a very important concept needed. Why? I believe it was because, the Israelites had just left polytheistic Egypt and were about to enter polytheistic Canaan. God needed to make it clear to the Israelites that He alone was El, and that he was above the heavenly entities (Elohim).
Note (GWS): To explain the relationship between Jehovah (Yahweh) and the Elohim, I will use the President and Congress of the United States in a rough but workable comparison. I do realize that the three branches of the government are a checks and balance system where one branch is no more powerful than the others, however in this example, I will submit that the President is the most powerful position and will use that in the example below. I will insert the Jewish terms next to the group names I’ll be using.
1. Elohim: The Congress of the USA including (but not necessarily) the President.
2. El: The title/position of President of the USA as leader of the Congress.
3. Jehovah (YHVH): The personal name of the President (ie George Bush).

The Scenario for the Jewish interpretation of Elohim is as follows:
George Bush (Jehovah) is the President (EL) of the United States of America. He, George Bush (Jehovah) is the leader (EL) over Congress (Elohim). George Bush (Jehovah) as leader (El) over Congress (Elohim) is actually part of the Congress (Elohim). That makes George Bush (Jehovah) part of the Congress (Elohim), yet separately its leader (EL).

Jehovah (God) is part of the Elohim (God, in Christian terms, Divine Ones in Judsaism) and rules over the Elohim. Who are the Elohim? Refer to the Strong’s definition listed above and you will find it includes a group of heavenly beings including angels…I submit that the Messiah as a divine being is among the group of Elohim.

Again, using the analogy of the President and Congress of the USA, I will include the Messiah as part of the Elohim (Godhead, sons of God). Jesus (Vice President) serves under EL (President) yet he, Jesus, is above the Elohim (Congress) in hierarchal order. However, as the Vice President is above the Congress, he is by definition part of the Congress. Just as the President is above Congress, yet he is by definition part of Congress. The Elohhim are one….in that they serve Jehovah, who is number 1 in it’s hierarchy.

In another bad but workable comparison, Deu 6:4 paraphrased states:

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman, is the only George Bushâ€Â.

Or,

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman is the Leaderâ€Â.

Where George Bush is the personal name of the Leader of Congress, and Congress consists of a group of individuals who are above the common man. The repeat of George Bush affirms that he alone is the number One man, and that there is only one George Bush.




The Problem: Interpretation of definitions

Trinitarian Christianity interprets “Elohim†as “God (Father), God (Son), God (HS)â€Â. A three in one Godhead. This meets their need of having the Old Testament prove that Jesus as God in their definition of the Godhead. However, none of the Hebrew definitions of “Elohim†as given by Strong’s Concordance include “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â. Having said that, since Elohim is a plural of El, in the Trinitarian thought process, something must fill that void to make the trinity work in this verse. In other words they need to make a plural, single, yet plural. Thus, they add their own definition to “Elohimâ€Â, in other words, they disregard the definitions as given above, and add “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â, instead of Jehovah, Messiah, and the Angel’a (divine ones). That works if you disregard Judaism and insert your own definition of “Elohim†to fit your cause.

Judaism on the other hand doesn’t consider the HS as a person so it can’t be included in the Elohim. The Messiah does however fit as part of the Elohim because he is a divine being. What are counted as Elohim in Judaism include divine beings such as the preincarnate Messiah, and the angels.


Now that it has been established that Elohim means God Family (or divine group) meaning a range of heavenly entities, we can establish who the Messiah is and that he is not Jehovah, but he is part of the Elohim (Heavenly Group).


It's all about the misinterpretation of terms....

well if you translate it into chipmunk it says

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (churp), and the (churp) was with Jehovah, and the (churp) was Elohim
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.

Maybe that is why one should use the GREEK that the writer wrote it in. DAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
R7-12 said:
Luke was half Greek.

The Apostle Paul was not Jewish. He was an Israelite - a Benjamite of the tribe of Benjamin and not of the tribe of Judah.

Romans 11:1 and Philippians 3:5.

R7-12

Which is it? Is Paul a Jew or a Benjaminite?

Phl 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

1Cr 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Jew, Judaism, and Israel are synonomous...technically maybe not....but in perception they are.
 
Rick the holypig said:
Georges said:
The Christian Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

The Jewish Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (Memra), and the (Memra) was with Jehovah, and the (Memra) was Elohim (part of the heavenly group including Jehovah, Messiah, and angels).
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by the (Memra); and without the (Memra) was not any thing made that was made.


The Shema:

The Christian Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

The Jewish Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah


The correct words with the correct definition change the whole interpretation.....

Except from a paper I'm composing regarding the false assumption that the Shema is proof of the trinity....

Terms for the names Jehovah, God, and God as defined in Judaism:
1. Jehovah: YHWH
Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh ( ), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah".
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ( ).
Note (GWS): Jehovah (Yahweh, YHVH) is also known as El when YHVH is not to be used. Yahweh is the personal name of God that separates him from the Elohim (sons of God).
2. God: Elohim
….In the Levantine (ancient Middle East) pantheon, the Elohim are the sons of El the ancient of days (olam) assembled on the divine holy place, Mount Zephon (Jebel Aqra). This mountain, which lies in Syria, was regarded as a portal to its heavenly counterpart. The Elohim are ruled by the El called Hadad the most high (elyon) who was known among the common people as "the master" ("Baal"). Assembled on the holy mountain of heaven and ruled by one, the pantheon (Elohim) acts as one.
….A common name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Elohim (Hebrew: אלהים); as opposed to other names mentioned in this article, this name also describes gods of other religions.
….Despite the -im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, the word Elohim, when referring to God is grammatically singular, and regularly takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible. It is argued that the word elohim had an origin in a plural grammatical form. When the Hebrew Bible uses elohim not in reference to God, it usually takes plural forms of the verb.
Note (GWS): The first paragraph is given in reference to terms related to the geographic area. It is employed here to show the hierarchy of the Elohim. The Elohim are the sons of El, and are ruled by him. The second paragraph affirms that God, when the verse is inferring singularity, is part of the Elohim (as the leader of the divine group). The third paragraph states that Elohim, when used in plurality, refers to a “divine group†(i.e. angels et al) and may include God as the verse needs.
3. God (Yahweh): EL
The word El ( ) appears in Hebrew, as an ordinary name of God. It is used in both the singular and plural, both for other gods and for the God of Israel.
Note (GWS): EL is Yahweh (YHVH) who is the Christian Jehovah. Yahweh (Jehovah) is part of the Elohim (the sons of El) as their ruler, yet the Elohim (the sons of El) are not Yahweh (Jehovah). To the ancient Israelites, it was forbidden to call God by his personal name. To prevent an accidental breaking of the 4th commandment, they called him by descriptive titles…one of these title names for YHVH is EL SHADDAI which translates as Almighty God. EL (Jehovah) SHADDAI (Almighty) would be used instead of YHVH SHADDAI.
4. One: Echad
(GWS) In regard to the verse above, One (Echad), doesn’t mean that Jehovah and Elohim are One, as in “one and the same†rather, One refers to “Number Oneâ€Â, the First in Order, the First in Hierarchy. In other words Jehovah is the Leader of the Elohim. This verse is a very important concept needed. Why? I believe it was because, the Israelites had just left polytheistic Egypt and were about to enter polytheistic Canaan. God needed to make it clear to the Israelites that He alone was El, and that he was above the heavenly entities (Elohim).
Note (GWS): To explain the relationship between Jehovah (Yahweh) and the Elohim, I will use the President and Congress of the United States in a rough but workable comparison. I do realize that the three branches of the government are a checks and balance system where one branch is no more powerful than the others, however in this example, I will submit that the President is the most powerful position and will use that in the example below. I will insert the Jewish terms next to the group names I’ll be using.
1. Elohim: The Congress of the USA including (but not necessarily) the President.
2. El: The title/position of President of the USA as leader of the Congress.
3. Jehovah (YHVH): The personal name of the President (ie George Bush).

The Scenario for the Jewish interpretation of Elohim is as follows:
George Bush (Jehovah) is the President (EL) of the United States of America. He, George Bush (Jehovah) is the leader (EL) over Congress (Elohim). George Bush (Jehovah) as leader (El) over Congress (Elohim) is actually part of the Congress (Elohim). That makes George Bush (Jehovah) part of the Congress (Elohim), yet separately its leader (EL).

Jehovah (God) is part of the Elohim (God, in Christian terms, Divine Ones in Judsaism) and rules over the Elohim. Who are the Elohim? Refer to the Strong’s definition listed above and you will find it includes a group of heavenly beings including angels…I submit that the Messiah as a divine being is among the group of Elohim.

Again, using the analogy of the President and Congress of the USA, I will include the Messiah as part of the Elohim (Godhead, sons of God). Jesus (Vice President) serves under EL (President) yet he, Jesus, is above the Elohim (Congress) in hierarchal order. However, as the Vice President is above the Congress, he is by definition part of the Congress. Just as the President is above Congress, yet he is by definition part of Congress. The Elohhim are one….in that they serve Jehovah, who is number 1 in it’s hierarchy.

In another bad but workable comparison, Deu 6:4 paraphrased states:

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman, is the only George Bushâ€Â.

Or,

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman is the Leaderâ€Â.

Where George Bush is the personal name of the Leader of Congress, and Congress consists of a group of individuals who are above the common man. The repeat of George Bush affirms that he alone is the number One man, and that there is only one George Bush.




The Problem: Interpretation of definitions

Trinitarian Christianity interprets “Elohim†as “God (Father), God (Son), God (HS)â€Â. A three in one Godhead. This meets their need of having the Old Testament prove that Jesus as God in their definition of the Godhead. However, none of the Hebrew definitions of “Elohim†as given by Strong’s Concordance include “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â. Having said that, since Elohim is a plural of El, in the Trinitarian thought process, something must fill that void to make the trinity work in this verse. In other words they need to make a plural, single, yet plural. Thus, they add their own definition to “Elohimâ€Â, in other words, they disregard the definitions as given above, and add “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â, instead of Jehovah, Messiah, and the Angel’a (divine ones). That works if you disregard Judaism and insert your own definition of “Elohim†to fit your cause.

Judaism on the other hand doesn’t consider the HS as a person so it can’t be included in the Elohim. The Messiah does however fit as part of the Elohim because he is a divine being. What are counted as Elohim in Judaism include divine beings such as the preincarnate Messiah, and the angels.


Now that it has been established that Elohim means God Family (or divine group) meaning a range of heavenly entities, we can establish who the Messiah is and that he is not Jehovah, but he is part of the Elohim (Heavenly Group).


It's all about the misinterpretation of terms....

well if you translate it into chipmunk it says

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (churp), and the (churp) was with Jehovah, and the (churp) was Elohim
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.

Maybe that is why one should use the GREEK that the writer wrote it in. DAAAAAAAAAAAA

Wow....that was brilliant.....good job...well thought out.... :angel:
 
Georges said:
Rick the holypig said:
Georges said:
The Christian Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

The Jewish Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (Memra), and the (Memra) was with Jehovah, and the (Memra) was Elohim (part of the heavenly group including Jehovah, Messiah, and angels).
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by the (Memra); and without the (Memra) was not any thing made that was made.


The Shema:

The Christian Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

The Jewish Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah


The correct words with the correct definition change the whole interpretation.....

Except from a paper I'm composing regarding the false assumption that the Shema is proof of the trinity....

Terms for the names Jehovah, God, and God as defined in Judaism:
1. Jehovah: YHWH
Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh ( ), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah".
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ( ).
Note (GWS): Jehovah (Yahweh, YHVH) is also known as El when YHVH is not to be used. Yahweh is the personal name of God that separates him from the Elohim (sons of God).
2. God: Elohim
….In the Levantine (ancient Middle East) pantheon, the Elohim are the sons of El the ancient of days (olam) assembled on the divine holy place, Mount Zephon (Jebel Aqra). This mountain, which lies in Syria, was regarded as a portal to its heavenly counterpart. The Elohim are ruled by the El called Hadad the most high (elyon) who was known among the common people as "the master" ("Baal"). Assembled on the holy mountain of heaven and ruled by one, the pantheon (Elohim) acts as one.
….A common name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Elohim (Hebrew: אלהים); as opposed to other names mentioned in this article, this name also describes gods of other religions.
….Despite the -im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, the word Elohim, when referring to God is grammatically singular, and regularly takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible. It is argued that the word elohim had an origin in a plural grammatical form. When the Hebrew Bible uses elohim not in reference to God, it usually takes plural forms of the verb.
Note (GWS): The first paragraph is given in reference to terms related to the geographic area. It is employed here to show the hierarchy of the Elohim. The Elohim are the sons of El, and are ruled by him. The second paragraph affirms that God, when the verse is inferring singularity, is part of the Elohim (as the leader of the divine group). The third paragraph states that Elohim, when used in plurality, refers to a “divine group†(i.e. angels et al) and may include God as the verse needs.
3. God (Yahweh): EL
The word El ( ) appears in Hebrew, as an ordinary name of God. It is used in both the singular and plural, both for other gods and for the God of Israel.
Note (GWS): EL is Yahweh (YHVH) who is the Christian Jehovah. Yahweh (Jehovah) is part of the Elohim (the sons of El) as their ruler, yet the Elohim (the sons of El) are not Yahweh (Jehovah). To the ancient Israelites, it was forbidden to call God by his personal name. To prevent an accidental breaking of the 4th commandment, they called him by descriptive titles…one of these title names for YHVH is EL SHADDAI which translates as Almighty God. EL (Jehovah) SHADDAI (Almighty) would be used instead of YHVH SHADDAI.
4. One: Echad
(GWS) In regard to the verse above, One (Echad), doesn’t mean that Jehovah and Elohim are One, as in “one and the same†rather, One refers to “Number Oneâ€Â, the First in Order, the First in Hierarchy. In other words Jehovah is the Leader of the Elohim. This verse is a very important concept needed. Why? I believe it was because, the Israelites had just left polytheistic Egypt and were about to enter polytheistic Canaan. God needed to make it clear to the Israelites that He alone was El, and that he was above the heavenly entities (Elohim).
Note (GWS): To explain the relationship between Jehovah (Yahweh) and the Elohim, I will use the President and Congress of the United States in a rough but workable comparison. I do realize that the three branches of the government are a checks and balance system where one branch is no more powerful than the others, however in this example, I will submit that the President is the most powerful position and will use that in the example below. I will insert the Jewish terms next to the group names I’ll be using.
1. Elohim: The Congress of the USA including (but not necessarily) the President.
2. El: The title/position of President of the USA as leader of the Congress.
3. Jehovah (YHVH): The personal name of the President (ie George Bush).

The Scenario for the Jewish interpretation of Elohim is as follows:
George Bush (Jehovah) is the President (EL) of the United States of America. He, George Bush (Jehovah) is the leader (EL) over Congress (Elohim). George Bush (Jehovah) as leader (El) over Congress (Elohim) is actually part of the Congress (Elohim). That makes George Bush (Jehovah) part of the Congress (Elohim), yet separately its leader (EL).

Jehovah (God) is part of the Elohim (God, in Christian terms, Divine Ones in Judsaism) and rules over the Elohim. Who are the Elohim? Refer to the Strong’s definition listed above and you will find it includes a group of heavenly beings including angels…I submit that the Messiah as a divine being is among the group of Elohim.

Again, using the analogy of the President and Congress of the USA, I will include the Messiah as part of the Elohim (Godhead, sons of God). Jesus (Vice President) serves under EL (President) yet he, Jesus, is above the Elohim (Congress) in hierarchal order. However, as the Vice President is above the Congress, he is by definition part of the Congress. Just as the President is above Congress, yet he is by definition part of Congress. The Elohhim are one….in that they serve Jehovah, who is number 1 in it’s hierarchy.

In another bad but workable comparison, Deu 6:4 paraphrased states:

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman, is the only George Bushâ€Â.

Or,

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman is the Leaderâ€Â.

Where George Bush is the personal name of the Leader of Congress, and Congress consists of a group of individuals who are above the common man. The repeat of George Bush affirms that he alone is the number One man, and that there is only one George Bush.




The Problem: Interpretation of definitions

Trinitarian Christianity interprets “Elohim†as “God (Father), God (Son), God (HS)â€Â. A three in one Godhead. This meets their need of having the Old Testament prove that Jesus as God in their definition of the Godhead. However, none of the Hebrew definitions of “Elohim†as given by Strong’s Concordance include “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â. Having said that, since Elohim is a plural of El, in the Trinitarian thought process, something must fill that void to make the trinity work in this verse. In other words they need to make a plural, single, yet plural. Thus, they add their own definition to “Elohimâ€Â, in other words, they disregard the definitions as given above, and add “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â, instead of Jehovah, Messiah, and the Angel’a (divine ones). That works if you disregard Judaism and insert your own definition of “Elohim†to fit your cause.

Judaism on the other hand doesn’t consider the HS as a person so it can’t be included in the Elohim. The Messiah does however fit as part of the Elohim because he is a divine being. What are counted as Elohim in Judaism include divine beings such as the preincarnate Messiah, and the angels.


Now that it has been established that Elohim means God Family (or divine group) meaning a range of heavenly entities, we can establish who the Messiah is and that he is not Jehovah, but he is part of the Elohim (Heavenly Group).


It's all about the misinterpretation of terms....

well if you translate it into chipmunk it says

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (churp), and the (churp) was with Jehovah, and the (churp) was Elohim
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.

Maybe that is why one should use the GREEK that the writer wrote it in. DAAAAAAAAAAAA

Wow....that was brilliant.....good job...well thought out.... :angel:

Almost as good as you taking a greek text & translating it into hebrew (witch you don't speak) & putting in any words you like to prove your JW doctrine. If the text in John was written in Greek you must use Greek to translate it into english not Hebrew or chipmunk. Buthen the Watchtower is famous for it's lies & twisting.
 
Here is the real John 1:1 in greek

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

040101.gif


In = en
the beginning = arche
was = en
the Word, = logos
and = kai
the Word = logos
was = en
with = pros
God = theos
and = kai
the Word = logos
was = en
GOD. = theos

Rev 19:13 Same writer & same time as John 1:1

And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

271913.gif


his = autos
name = onoma
is called = kaleo
The Word = logos
of God = theos

Hebrews 1:8

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
190108.gif


But = de
unto = pros
the Son = huios
[he saith], Thy = sou (the he who is speaking has to be God see context)
throne, = thronos
O God, = theos


END OF STORY. either believe the Bible or die in your Jesus Only & JW cults
 
Jesus Speaking

Rev. 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

270108.gif


I = ego
am = eimi
Alpha = a
and = kai
Omega, = omega
the beginning = arche
and = kai
the ending = telos

God Speaking

Rev 21:6

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

272106.gif


I = ego
am = eimi
Alpha = a
and = kai
Omega, = omega
the beginning = arche
and = kai
the ending = telos

Jesus Speaking Again

Rev. 22:13

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

272213.gif


I = ego
am = eimi
Alpha = a
and = kai
Omega, = omega
the beginning = arche
and = kai
the ending = telos
the first = protos
and = kai
the last = eschatos


In the Greek Alphabet you only have one "a" (Alpha) & one "z" (Omega)

So if God is A & Z, First & Last then how can Jesus be A & Z, First 7 Last unless HE IS GOD

END OF STORY.

come out of your cult - the whore of babylon & accept the truth of the REAL GOSPEL. JESUS IS GOD THE A & THE Z, THE FIRST & THE LAST & IT IS HE THRONE AS GOD THAT WILL LAST FOREVER ACCORDING TO GOD HIMSELF!
 
Rick the holypig said:
Georges said:
[quote="Rick the holypig":af007]
Georges said:
The Christian Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same (Jesus) was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him (Jesus) was not any thing made that was made.

The Jewish Interpretation of John 1:1-3:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (Memra), and the (Memra) was with Jehovah, and the (Memra) was Elohim (part of the heavenly group including Jehovah, Messiah, and angels).
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by the (Memra); and without the (Memra) was not any thing made that was made.


The Shema:

The Christian Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

The Jewish Interpretation:

Deu 6:4: Hear, Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah


The correct words with the correct definition change the whole interpretation.....

Except from a paper I'm composing regarding the false assumption that the Shema is proof of the trinity....

Terms for the names Jehovah, God, and God as defined in Judaism:
1. Jehovah: YHWH
Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh ( ), the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah".
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ( ).
Note (GWS): Jehovah (Yahweh, YHVH) is also known as El when YHVH is not to be used. Yahweh is the personal name of God that separates him from the Elohim (sons of God).
2. God: Elohim
….In the Levantine (ancient Middle East) pantheon, the Elohim are the sons of El the ancient of days (olam) assembled on the divine holy place, Mount Zephon (Jebel Aqra). This mountain, which lies in Syria, was regarded as a portal to its heavenly counterpart. The Elohim are ruled by the El called Hadad the most high (elyon) who was known among the common people as "the master" ("Baal"). Assembled on the holy mountain of heaven and ruled by one, the pantheon (Elohim) acts as one.
….A common name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Elohim (Hebrew: אלהים); as opposed to other names mentioned in this article, this name also describes gods of other religions.
….Despite the -im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, the word Elohim, when referring to God is grammatically singular, and regularly takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible. It is argued that the word elohim had an origin in a plural grammatical form. When the Hebrew Bible uses elohim not in reference to God, it usually takes plural forms of the verb.
Note (GWS): The first paragraph is given in reference to terms related to the geographic area. It is employed here to show the hierarchy of the Elohim. The Elohim are the sons of El, and are ruled by him. The second paragraph affirms that God, when the verse is inferring singularity, is part of the Elohim (as the leader of the divine group). The third paragraph states that Elohim, when used in plurality, refers to a “divine group†(i.e. angels et al) and may include God as the verse needs.
3. God (Yahweh): EL
The word El ( ) appears in Hebrew, as an ordinary name of God. It is used in both the singular and plural, both for other gods and for the God of Israel.
Note (GWS): EL is Yahweh (YHVH) who is the Christian Jehovah. Yahweh (Jehovah) is part of the Elohim (the sons of El) as their ruler, yet the Elohim (the sons of El) are not Yahweh (Jehovah). To the ancient Israelites, it was forbidden to call God by his personal name. To prevent an accidental breaking of the 4th commandment, they called him by descriptive titles…one of these title names for YHVH is EL SHADDAI which translates as Almighty God. EL (Jehovah) SHADDAI (Almighty) would be used instead of YHVH SHADDAI.
4. One: Echad
(GWS) In regard to the verse above, One (Echad), doesn’t mean that Jehovah and Elohim are One, as in “one and the same†rather, One refers to “Number Oneâ€Â, the First in Order, the First in Hierarchy. In other words Jehovah is the Leader of the Elohim. This verse is a very important concept needed. Why? I believe it was because, the Israelites had just left polytheistic Egypt and were about to enter polytheistic Canaan. God needed to make it clear to the Israelites that He alone was El, and that he was above the heavenly entities (Elohim).
Note (GWS): To explain the relationship between Jehovah (Yahweh) and the Elohim, I will use the President and Congress of the United States in a rough but workable comparison. I do realize that the three branches of the government are a checks and balance system where one branch is no more powerful than the others, however in this example, I will submit that the President is the most powerful position and will use that in the example below. I will insert the Jewish terms next to the group names I’ll be using.
1. Elohim: The Congress of the USA including (but not necessarily) the President.
2. El: The title/position of President of the USA as leader of the Congress.
3. Jehovah (YHVH): The personal name of the President (ie George Bush).

The Scenario for the Jewish interpretation of Elohim is as follows:
George Bush (Jehovah) is the President (EL) of the United States of America. He, George Bush (Jehovah) is the leader (EL) over Congress (Elohim). George Bush (Jehovah) as leader (El) over Congress (Elohim) is actually part of the Congress (Elohim). That makes George Bush (Jehovah) part of the Congress (Elohim), yet separately its leader (EL).

Jehovah (God) is part of the Elohim (God, in Christian terms, Divine Ones in Judsaism) and rules over the Elohim. Who are the Elohim? Refer to the Strong’s definition listed above and you will find it includes a group of heavenly beings including angels…I submit that the Messiah as a divine being is among the group of Elohim.

Again, using the analogy of the President and Congress of the USA, I will include the Messiah as part of the Elohim (Godhead, sons of God). Jesus (Vice President) serves under EL (President) yet he, Jesus, is above the Elohim (Congress) in hierarchal order. However, as the Vice President is above the Congress, he is by definition part of the Congress. Just as the President is above Congress, yet he is by definition part of Congress. The Elohhim are one….in that they serve Jehovah, who is number 1 in it’s hierarchy.

In another bad but workable comparison, Deu 6:4 paraphrased states:

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman, is the only George Bushâ€Â.

Or,

“Hear O USA, George Bush your Congressman is the Leaderâ€Â.

Where George Bush is the personal name of the Leader of Congress, and Congress consists of a group of individuals who are above the common man. The repeat of George Bush affirms that he alone is the number One man, and that there is only one George Bush.




The Problem: Interpretation of definitions

Trinitarian Christianity interprets “Elohim†as “God (Father), God (Son), God (HS)â€Â. A three in one Godhead. This meets their need of having the Old Testament prove that Jesus as God in their definition of the Godhead. However, none of the Hebrew definitions of “Elohim†as given by Strong’s Concordance include “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â. Having said that, since Elohim is a plural of El, in the Trinitarian thought process, something must fill that void to make the trinity work in this verse. In other words they need to make a plural, single, yet plural. Thus, they add their own definition to “Elohimâ€Â, in other words, they disregard the definitions as given above, and add “God (Son) and God (HS)â€Â, instead of Jehovah, Messiah, and the Angel’a (divine ones). That works if you disregard Judaism and insert your own definition of “Elohim†to fit your cause.

Judaism on the other hand doesn’t consider the HS as a person so it can’t be included in the Elohim. The Messiah does however fit as part of the Elohim because he is a divine being. What are counted as Elohim in Judaism include divine beings such as the preincarnate Messiah, and the angels.


Now that it has been established that Elohim means God Family (or divine group) meaning a range of heavenly entities, we can establish who the Messiah is and that he is not Jehovah, but he is part of the Elohim (Heavenly Group).


It's all about the misinterpretation of terms....

well if you translate it into chipmunk it says

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the (churp), and the (churp) was with Jehovah, and the (churp) was Elohim
Jhn 1:2 The (Memra) was in the beginning with Jehovah.

Maybe that is why one should use the GREEK that the writer wrote it in. DAAAAAAAAAAAA

Wow....that was brilliant.....good job...well thought out.... :angel:

Almost as good as you taking a greek text & translating it into hebrew (witch you don't speak) & putting in any words you like to prove your JW doctrine. If the text in John was written in Greek you must use Greek to translate it into english not Hebrew or chipmunk. Buthen the Watchtower is famous for it's lies & twisting.[/quote:af007]

Sorry Mr. pig.....I don't know JW doctrine...don't care to...but if it agrees with me then...I guess I'm not opposed to it...don't know it so I can't judge.

Mr. Pig.....Was John a Jew? To whom was John writting? Even if John was originallly written in Greek, does that change the leopard's spots...? John was a Hebrew, he though and wrote in Hewbrew...BTW did John really pen the Gospel? It is different Greek than the book of Revelation...both supposedly written by John. You would think that the B of R would be written in much better Greek than the B of J, especially since the B of R was written after the B of J. How can that be?

Sorry Mr. Pig....I'm using Judaism to straighten out what Pauline Christianity has screwed up.
 
Rick the holypig said:
Here is the real John 1:1 in greek

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

040101.gif


In = en
the beginning = arche
was = en
the Word, = logos
and = kai
the Word = logos
was = en
with = pros
God = theos
and = kai
the Word = logos
was = en
GOD. = theos

Rev 19:13 Same writer & same time as John 1:1

And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

271913.gif


his = autos
name = onoma
is called = kaleo
The Word = logos
of God = theos

Hebrews 1:8

But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
190108.gif


But = de
unto = pros
the Son = huios
[he saith], Thy = sou (the he who is speaking has to be God see context)
throne, = thronos
O God, = theos


END OF STORY. either believe the Bible or die in your Jesus Only & JW cults

Sorry Mr. Pig...you lose the argument again....maybe you are a little slow in picking up the Word/Memra concept...I'll give you the benifit of the doubt, but I refer you to the OP....

Read the section on the "Memra".....

Read it, learn it....live it... :)
 
Rick the holypig said:
Jesus Speaking

Rev. 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

270108.gif


I = ego
am = eimi
Alpha = a
and = kai
Omega, = omega
the beginning = arche
and = kai
the ending = telos

God Speaking

Rev 21:6

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

272106.gif


I = ego
am = eimi
Alpha = a
and = kai
Omega, = omega
the beginning = arche
and = kai
the ending = telos

Jesus Speaking Again

Rev. 22:13

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

272213.gif


I = ego
am = eimi
Alpha = a
and = kai
Omega, = omega
the beginning = arche
and = kai
the ending = telos
the first = protos
and = kai
the last = eschatos


In the Greek Alphabet you only have one "a" (Alpha) & one "z" (Omega)

So if God is A & Z, First & Last then how can Jesus be A & Z, First 7 Last unless HE IS GOD


Easy...Messiah is the first of God's creation and he will be the last...Jesus is the first and the last.



END OF STORY.

come out of your cult - the whore of babylon & accept the truth of the REAL GOSPEL.

Have you taken you medication today? :silly:

To easy....


JESUS IS GOD THE A & THE Z, THE FIRST & THE LAST & IT IS HE THRONE AS GOD THAT WILL LAST FOREVER ACCORDING TO GOD HIMSELF!


Mr. Pig......you are a trip.. :-D ..question to you. Do you hallucinate after you get bitten by any of the snakes you handle in the church services I'm guessing you attend? If not, by the tone of your posts, you may want to consult a psychiatrist.
 
vic said:
BradtheImpaler said:
Do you hallucinate after you get bitten by any of the snakes you handle in the church services I'm guessing you attend?

:lol:
:o

:lol: Down boy! Take it easy George, ok? Thanks. 8-)


just having some fun...that's all....I will cool it though...

It was said in the same spirit as the "yo mama" type jokes. That is said with a smile....even though I was called the "liar"....I am above the cheap shots, but not against humorous barbs.
 
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