What's new
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

Bible Study John's use of Word of the Lord or Word of God in John 1:1.

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
After a careful study of the 1st and 2nd century Targumim I became enlightened to the fact that John was not borrowing an idea from Greek mystery religions or any other such hogwash. It became starkly apparent to me that this idea of YHVH being manifest in different forms (many times in the flesh) was the point that a Jewish hearer at the time would understand but for the Greek reader (having chosen "logos" as the word that closest explains his point) he had to elaborate on it through verse 5.

The point was this wording sent a specific message to still unbelieving diaspora Jews (especially the Rabbis) that this Jesus was what the Targumim called the Memra of YHVH. He is that aspect of YHVH which allows us to see and hear him (see John 1:18 and John 5:37)...incarnate, He is the express image of YHVH's substance and is the brightness (that which can be seen) of His glory. Suddenly I understood the real meaning of the Nicean language "one OUSIA in three HYPOSTASES...(Father, Son or Word, and Holy Spirit)

Any thoughts before I quote some examples? The point is that the Word of God was already a pre-Christian Jewish concept summarized in the Targum Jonathan (not pseudo-Jonathan).
 

StoveBolts

Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Messages
14,670
Gender
Male
Great start for a nice study!
I'm not up on my Hebrew but does Davar fall in anywhere?

I look forward to your study!
 

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
Great start for a nice study!
I'm not up on my Hebrew but does Davar fall in anywhere?

I look forward to your study!
Davar (the proper word for speaking or speech) when referring to God has great relevance (obviously). He spoke and it was. But the Memra is the Hebrew Aramaic equivalent spoken in the period from after the Babylonian captivity to well after the Jesus events.

The Targumim used it in reference to whenever YHVH was described in scripture as "appearing" or speaking to humans in human language and literally it translates as the Word of God. Little realized by most, having “faith” in YHVH the Word, and His words, are the paramount themes John wishes to impress us with. But where does this concept of the Word of YHVH come from?

The concept of God’s “Word“ as a person, or as the temporal visible or audible expression of God, primarily has its roots in, and develops out of the Hebrew scriptures, and is also present in pre-Christian traditions in the works, and commentaries of ancient 1st and 2nd century Rabbinical scholarship. From before the time that Jesus was born, and I can only conjecture since the time of Ezra and the formation of Synagogue system, various Rabbis often debated and commented on various passages from the Tanakh. The summation of their perspectives and oral commentaries were represented and brought out in the Targums (100 B.C. to 200 A.D.). These were considered by many as nearly as authoritative as the Scriptures themselves! Sometimes different Rabbis brought out more subtle shades of meaning, and still others offered more unique renditions, supporting the traditions and teachings of their particular school of thought (of which there were a few) but in most places the Targums agreed.

The Targums were expanded, paraphrased, or amplified versions of the Scriptures, written in a western Aramaic/Hebrew. The early Targums were written by both Babylonian as well as Jerusalem Rabbis, usually by individual scholars of renowned such as the gentile proselyte Onkelos, and the famed Rabbi Jonathan ben-Uzziel, student, and possible grandson of the well-respected Rabbi Hillel. Oddly, though from two vastly different cultures and from many 1,000’s of miles apart, the conclusions reached by these Rabbis were often identical. Many of the renderings of these Aramaic paraphrases helped form the basis of what was alleged to be the “Oral Torah“ of the later Talmudic period.

The Targums were expanded, paraphrased, or amplified versions of the Scriptures, written in a western Aramaic/Hebrew. The early Targums were written by both Babylonian as well as Jerusalem Rabbis, usually by individual scholars of renowned such as the gentile proselyte Onkelos, and the famed Rabbi Jonathan ben-Uzziel, student, and possible grandson of the well-respected Rabbi Hillel. Oddly, though from two vastly different cultures and from many 1,000’s of miles apart, the conclusions reached by these Rabbis were often identical. Many of the renderings of these Aramaic paraphrases helped form the basis of what was alleged to be the “Oral Torah“ of the later Talmudic period.

Almost unanimously, in the various Targums, whenever YHVH is personified, or anthropomorphisms are being implied in the original language, or whenever YHVH is somehow made manifest to His chosen recipients, or when the scriptures seem to indicate more than one YHVH, the Rabbis referred to this expressed image of God, or appearances of YHVH Himself, as “the Word“ (the Memra)! This is exactly the application made by John in John 1:1.
 

StoveBolts

Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Messages
14,670
Gender
Male
Davar (the proper word for speaking or speech) when referring to God has great relevance (obviously). He spoke and it was. But the Memra is the Hebrew Aramaic equivalent spoken in the period from after the Babylonian captivity to well after the Jesus events.

The Targumim used it in reference to whenever YHVH was described in scripture as "appearing" or speaking to humans in human language and literally it translates as the Word of God. Little realized by most, having “faith” in YHVH the Word, and His words, are the paramount themes John wishes to impress us with. But where does this concept of the Word of YHVH come from?

The concept of God’s “Word“ as a person, or as the temporal visible or audible expression of God, primarily has its roots in, and develops out of the Hebrew scriptures, and is also present in pre-Christian traditions in the works, and commentaries of ancient 1st and 2nd century Rabbinical scholarship. From before the time that Jesus was born, and I can only conjecture since the time of Ezra and the formation of Synagogue system, various Rabbis often debated and commented on various passages from the Tanakh. The summation of their perspectives and oral commentaries were represented and brought out in the Targums (100 B.C. to 200 A.D.). These were considered by many as nearly as authoritative as the Scriptures themselves! Sometimes different Rabbis brought out more subtle shades of meaning, and still others offered more unique renditions, supporting the traditions and teachings of their particular school of thought (of which there were a few) but in most places the Targums agreed.

The Targums were expanded, paraphrased, or amplified versions of the Scriptures, written in a western Aramaic/Hebrew. The early Targums were written by both Babylonian as well as Jerusalem Rabbis, usually by individual scholars of renowned such as the gentile proselyte Onkelos, and the famed Rabbi Jonathan ben-Uzziel, student, and possible grandson of the well-respected Rabbi Hillel. Oddly, though from two vastly different cultures and from many 1,000’s of miles apart, the conclusions reached by these Rabbis were often identical. Many of the renderings of these Aramaic paraphrases helped form the basis of what was alleged to be the “Oral Torah“ of the later Talmudic period.

The Targums were expanded, paraphrased, or amplified versions of the Scriptures, written in a western Aramaic/Hebrew. The early Targums were written by both Babylonian as well as Jerusalem Rabbis, usually by individual scholars of renowned such as the gentile proselyte Onkelos, and the famed Rabbi Jonathan ben-Uzziel, student, and possible grandson of the well-respected Rabbi Hillel. Oddly, though from two vastly different cultures and from many 1,000’s of miles apart, the conclusions reached by these Rabbis were often identical. Many of the renderings of these Aramaic paraphrases helped form the basis of what was alleged to be the “Oral Torah“ of the later Talmudic period.

Almost unanimously, in the various Targums, whenever YHVH is personified, or anthropomorphisms are being implied in the original language, or whenever YHVH is somehow made manifest to His chosen recipients, or when the scriptures seem to indicate more than one YHVH, the Rabbis referred to this expressed image of God, or appearances of YHVH Himself, as “the Word“ (the Memra)! This is exactly the application made by John in John 1:1.
I personally find this fascinating!
Do you have any quotes from the Targum you can share? I'd be especially interested what Ezra had to say in contrast with Johnathan.
Thanks!
 

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
I personally find this fascinating!
Do you have any quotes from the Targum you can share? I'd be especially interested what Ezra had to say in contrast with Johnathan.
Thanks!
In the Targum Jonathan on Genesis 19:24 Jonathan writes, “and the Memra (Word) of YHVH caused to descend upon the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, brimstone and fire from the YHVH in heaven“. If you compare this passage in the Masoretic or the Septuagint, or even the KJV or NASV, this “Word of YHVH“ is referred here as the LORD (YHVH), yet here He is, sitting with father Abraham in his tent, in the form of a man, in the fields of Mamre, breaking bread. They have just shared bread together, and this YHVH has sent forth the other two "men" (actually angels) who came with Him, to perform this historical act of God’s judgment.

It takes little effort to see that this "Word of God" was actually believed by the Jewish Targumim to be none other than YHVH Himself manifest (either in the flesh or as a theophany). We Christians call this unique person of the Godhead “the Son“. The reference to “Son” is actually also from pre-Christian Hebrew tradition (see Enoch, 105: 2; IV Esdras 7:28-29; 13:32, 37, 52; 14:9, and more). The tag “son” or “son of”, in the Hebrew culture, referred more to likeness or role rather than a progressive biological lineage. The “sons of Belial” were not literally Belial’s children in a biological sense. But who they are is very real and very important.

Now there is only one God (yachid). That God is the Father. That same one God is also this Son. The same one God is also the Holy Spirit. And from the perspective of these personae, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are a Unity. Each is referred to as "the Lord" throughout the Scripture, yet there is only one Lord and that Lord is YHVH.

On Exodus 24:1, The Targum Jonathan understands the scripture to be saying, “the Word of YHVH said to Moses, come up to YHVH“, and just previously in 20:1, he said, “and the Word of the LORD spoke all these glorious words“!

Targum Onkelos renders Genesis 15:6 as, “and Abraham trusted in the Word of YHVH, and He counted it to him for righteousness“, while the Jerusalem Targum on Genesis 22:14 says, “and Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word of YHVH and said, You are the YHVH who does see, but You cannot be seen“. In Genesis 16:3 he has Hagar praying “in the name of the Word of YHVH“, as if God had made Himself seeable, and yet she was not consumed!

You see reader, YHVH Himself was always "the Word", and therefore John the Apostle is in no wise imposing a Greek notion, but rather expressing an acceptable Jewish concept based entirely on the Torah and the Prophets. This was one of the common understandings being extrapolated by the best of the best of the Rabbinical commentators of that day. John by this reference to the “Word” was sending a direct message to the diaspora Rabbis of his time, even though he wrote in Greek (see John 1:1). John is saying that “Bereshith” (In the Beginning) was the Memra (the Word), and the Memra was ‘face to face’ (with) Elohim (God), and was Elohim (God). He is saying that this Messiah, who was born as Jesus, is the very Memra. The same being referred to in the Targums by the great and wise sages of Judaism from both Jerusalem and Babylonia. No Greek mystery religion or writer would ever have made such a claim. In fact the Greeks had no such frame of reference for this whatsoever.

Targum Onkelos on Genesis 28 reveals to us that the Memra (the Word) was Jacob’s God. The one with whom He wrestled (in the form of a man) and about whom he said "I have seen God face to face”. In Psalm 62:9 He is David’s God as well. Targum Jonathan says “the Word of YHVH created man in His likeness, in the likeness of YHVH, YHVH created...”. In the Jerusalem Targum the Word is the “I Am“ of Exodus 3:14! If the Targumim were correct then all the “I Am with you” passages are referring to the Word or Memra, thus Immanu-El.
 

Nathan12

Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
309
Gender
Male
The point is that the Word of God was already a pre-Christian Jewish concept summarized in the Targum Jonathan (not pseudo-Jonathan).
While I have seen references to this Targum, it is true that the Jewish rabbis regards the Memra of God as a divine Person.

MEMRA (= "Ma'amar" or "Dibbur," "Logos"):
By: Kaufmann Kohler
"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided...
 

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
Think on this Steve...

According to the Targumim, Hosea 1:7 says that God will save the House of Judah by the Word of YHVH and Isaiah 45:17 and 25 also tells us that the true Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHVH, “with an everlasting salvation” (yeshuah), and that “by the Word of YHVH...shall all the offspring of Israel be justified“. Who with even a vestige of intellectual integrity can deny such a witness?

Finally, the Targums on Genesis 49:18 say that Jacob (Israel) waits for the yeshuah (salvation) that comes through the Memra (the Word of God), and on His yeshuah, Jacob’s soul hopes. Wow! Behold the Lamb! Therefore, wherever God manifests Himself to the people of God, even as the K’vod-YHVH (the Lord of Glory, or the Glory of the Lord) in the Sh’kan (the Shekinah). He is YHVH Himself, and at the same time He is the Word! Therefore, YHVH is the Word and the Word is YHVH! This is the written Torah that the Word is the living Torah!
While I have seen references to this Targum, it is true that the Jewish rabbis regards the Memra of God as a divine Person.

MEMRA (= "Ma'amar" or "Dibbur," "Logos"):
By: Kaufmann Kohler
"The Word," in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided...
Thanks Nathan this is a great addition to the conversation.
 

StoveBolts

Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Messages
14,670
Gender
Male
Think on this Steve...

According to the Targumim, Hosea 1:7 says that God will save the House of Judah by the Word of YHVH and Isaiah 45:17 and 25 also tells us that the true Israel shall be saved by the Word of YHVH, “with an everlasting salvation” (yeshuah), and that “by the Word of YHVH...shall all the offspring of Israel be justified“. Who with even a vestige of intellectual integrity can deny such a witness?

Finally, the Targums on Genesis 49:18 say that Jacob (Israel) waits for the yeshuah (salvation) that comes through the Memra (the Word of God), and on His yeshuah, Jacob’s soul hopes. Wow! Behold the Lamb! Therefore, wherever God manifests Himself to the people of God, even as the K’vod-YHVH (the Lord of Glory, or the Glory of the Lord) in the Sh’kan (the Shekinah). He is YHVH Himself, and at the same time He is the Word! Therefore, YHVH is the Word and the Word is YHVH! This is the written Torah that the Word is the living Torah!


Thanks Nathan this is a great addition to the conversation.
Very good, i will have to read it a few more times to ponder.

Year's ago this thought occurred to me after meditation of yud hey vav hey which takes the form of breathing.

Genesis 1 is an Elohistic text, which is plural. Genesis 2 is a Yahwistic text.

Do we find YHVH in Genesis 1?
Yes, we find YHVH when He speaks.

And Elohim said...

Thoughts?
 

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
Very good, i will have to read it a few more times to ponder.

Year's ago this thought occurred to me after meditation of yud hey vav hey which takes the form of breathing.

Genesis 1 is an Elohistic text, which is plural. Genesis 2 is a Yahwistic text.

Do we find YHVH in Genesis 1?
Yes, we find YHVH when He speaks.

And Elohim said...

Thoughts?
Actually I do have a few....

a) I do not believe in the EY(J)DP theory (the documentary hypothesis). By the time Moses wrote down the Torah, the personal name of this El (YHVH) was already known. The first 11 chapters ARE referenced from other texts (the book of the generations of Adam, the book of the generations of Noah, and other history passed down through the Israelites). Certain Mesopotamian cultures (like the Semitic Akkadians) had a whole pantheon of els (generic for gods). It is cognate to the Ugaritic l-h-m and was used as the general reference to many Canaanite gods. Elohim is a term that not only referred to spiritual entities but also was used for certain people who had institutions that held sway over life and death (Kings, priests, prophets, etc.).

b) Now the being who contacted Abraham was considered by him (as revealed to him) to be the mightiest of the Els (El-Shaddai) and the highest of the Els (El-Shaddai). This is the El that appeared and spoke with Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob (who He renamed Israel). Later He reveled His personal name (YHVH, of whom we only know the real first syllable is Yah) to Moses.

Now as we discussed earlier, Genesis 1 deals with creation (bara), and Genesis 2 with formation or making (Yatzar) and thus do not necessarily mean they are two creation sources (the E and the Y), but we can agree to disagree on that if you wish.
 
Last edited:

StoveBolts

Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Messages
14,670
Gender
Male
Actually I do have a few....

a) I do not believe in the EY(J)DP theory (the documentary hypothesis). By the time Moses wrote down the Torah, the personal name of this El (YHVH) was already known. The first 11 chapters ARE referenced from other texts (the book of the generations of Adam, the book of the generations of Noah, and other history passed down through the Israelites). Certain Mesopotamian cultures (like the Semitic Akkadians) had a whole pantheon of els (generic for gods). It is cognate to the Ugaritic l-h-m and was used as the general reference to many Canaanite gods. Elohim is a term that not only referred to spiritual entities but also was used for certain people who had institutions that held sway over life and death (Kings, priests, prophets, etc.).

b) Now the being who contacted Abraham was considered by him (as revealed to him) to be the mightiest of the Els (El-Shaddai) and the highest of the Els (El-Shaddai). This is the El that appeared and spoke with Isaac, Ishmael, and Jacob (who He renamed Israel). Later He reveled His personal name (YHVH, of whom we only know the real first syllable is Yah) to Moses.

Now as we discussed earlier, Genesis 1 deals with creation (bara), and Genesis 2 with formation or making (Yatzar) and thus does not necessarily mean they are two creation sources (the E and the Y), but we can agree to disagree on that if you wish.
Actually, we are in complete agreement.
Let me bunny trail for just a moment. In the time of Abraham in Ur, which is post-Sargon, do you see a stark difference in character between Anu, Ishtar, and the Canaanite Gods to where Abraham was sent?

The reason I ask is this. I was reading the epic of Gilgamesh and in the opening chapter, Gilgamesh is made out to be an arrogant, abusive King unlike his Father who would, I assume, had been a wise King.

What I gather from the older Sumerian texts is that this particular Pantheon, they are actually concerned with the welfare of the citizens and the fragments we have of their laws reflect this value.

Meanwhile, in the land of Canaanite region and as the Hittites move east we see El and Baal warring with each other. Actually, we see the pantheon at war with each other and humanity is created to serve the gods and they hold little value to the gods except to rule over them. It is within this society we see child sacrifices and strife.

I find it ironic that God would send Abraham from a civil, socially established society to what i consider an unruly wild west with only a remnant of good.

While i understand El as singular representing the head of the pantheon to which is referred as Elohim (plural) when being addressed within the context of the pantheon, I conclude that Genesis 1 is somewhat of an apologetic response.

What I mean is this. In Exodus, God wars with the greatest pantheon in existence, the Egyptian gods, and He wins. It is worthy to not Gods were thought to reside in specific geographical regions. He then takes His people and conquers Canan and overthrows their gods and this, takes the appropriate title of El / Elohim and ending the oppressive reign of the previous gods and establishing truth and justice through the region.

In Exodus, God tells Moses something most would find odd. God says Abraham knew Him as Elohim, not YHVH, but that's another topic.

Please forgive my grammatical errors, between spell check, autocorrect and trying to type in this phone... They are bound to happen with long posts.
 

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
Actually, we are in complete agreement.
Let me bunny trail for just a moment. In the time of Abraham in Ur, which is post-Sargon, do you see a stark difference in character between Anu, Ishtar, and the Canaanite Gods to where Abraham was sent?

The reason I ask is this. I was reading the epic of Gilgamesh and in the opening chapter, Gilgamesh is made out to be an arrogant, abusive King unlike his Father who would, I assume, had been a wise King.

What I gather from the older Sumerian texts is that this particular Pantheon, they are actually concerned with the welfare of the citizens and the fragments we have of their laws reflect this value.

Meanwhile, in the land of Canaanite region and as the Hittites move east we see El and Baal warring with each other. Actually, we see the pantheon at war with each other and humanity is created to serve the gods and they hold little value to the gods except to rule over them. It is within this society we see child sacrifices and strife.

I find it ironic that God would send Abraham from a civil, socially established society to what i consider an unruly wild west with only a remnant of good.

While i understand El as singular representing the head of the pantheon to which is referred as Elohim (plural) when being addressed within the context of the pantheon, I conclude that Genesis 1 is somewhat of an apologetic response.

What I mean is this. In Exodus, God wars with the greatest pantheon in existence, the Egyptian gods, and He wins. It is worthy to not Gods were thought to reside in specific geographical regions. He then takes His people and conquers Canan and overthrows their gods and this, takes the appropriate title of El / Elohim and ending the oppressive reign of the previous gods and establishing truth and justice through the region.

In Exodus, God tells Moses something most would find odd. God says Abraham knew Him as Elohim, not YHVH, but that's another topic.

Please forgive my grammatical errors, between spell check, autocorrect and trying to type in this phone... They are bound to happen with long posts.
No problem Steve the content was excellent and yes I saw these themes in my studies as well. At least in the cultural narrative this EL (YHVH) shows Himself to be the true EL or most high of all the Els.

We are kind of getting a bit off topic though...what are your thoughts on the Word of God...is He a personage of YHVH? Do you think John was using this pre-Christian Jewish conceptual (John 1:1-4) or just referring to the Greek idea of a logos?

Are there other references or New Covenant writers that imply this "YHVH manifest in the flesh" idea?
 
Last edited:

StoveBolts

Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Messages
14,670
Gender
Male
No problem Steve the content was excellent and yes I saw these themes in my studies as well. At least in the cultural narrative this EL (YHVH) shows Himself to be the true EL or most high of all the Els.

We are kind of getting a bit off topic though...what are your thoughts on the Word of God...is He a personage of YHVH? Do you think John was using this pre-Christian Jewish conceptual (John 1:1-4) or just referring to the Greek idea of a logos?

Are there other references or New Covenant writers that imply this "YHVH manifest in the flesh" idea?
Sorry for going off topic. It isn't often i run across people like you that have studied some of the same material. I will conceded your studies are broader and deeper than mine, and I'm enjoying learning from you.

I'm replacing a bathtub and I'm going to get yelled at if i don't get off my phone. Ill ponder my thoughts on John's account and Lord willing give you a decent and well deserved reply.

Btw, please feel free to call me Jeff. Ttyl.
 

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
And I apologize as well Jeff, I don't know why my old brain read Stove as Steve (DUH!)

Any way, you are too gracious. Your input was also really well considered and you also have studied this to some degree. I wonder if there are other more typically denominational Christians that have some thoughts on this.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Supporter
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
21,355
Gender
Male
I wonder if there are other more typically denominational Christians that have some thoughts on this.

I believe the book of Hebrews expounds upon this idea of YHWH the Son, being the image or Word of YHWH at least in the first Chapter.


For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:5-10


This passage picks up with the words...

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?


This I see as referring to the ancient mystery of the Angel of the Lord, being referred to as YHWH, and God.


This idea is brought to an apex beginning in verse 8



But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.



Especially verse 10 -


But to the Son He says:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


This is a direct reference to YHWH, from Zechariah.


It is the Son, YHWH who ...laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.




JLB
 

brother Paul

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
1,358
Christian
Yes
I believe the book of Hebrews expounds upon this idea of YHWH the Son, being the image or Word of YHWH at least in the first Chapter.


For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:5-10


This passage picks up with the words...

For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?


This I see as referring to the ancient mystery of the Angel of the Lord, being referred to as YHWH, and God.


This idea is brought to an apex beginning in verse 8



But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.



Especially verse 10 -


But to the Son He says:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.


This is a direct reference to YHWH, from Zechariah.


It is the Son, YHWH who ...laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of Your hands.




JLB
Amen
 

Please consider donating

Total amount
$737.00
Goal
$4,080.00
Top