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Justified while Ungodly !

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savedbygrace57

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Rom 4:4-5

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

That those whom Christ died for are Justified before believing, which pleases God [Heb 11:6] is evident from the fact that God Justifieth the Ungodly ! The word Justify here is in the present tense, denoting He was or is Justifying the Ungodly, while they are or were The Ungodly. This is the same as when Paul taught that the elect were reconciled to God while yet enemies Rom 5:10 !

Now how can this be ? Because they are reconciled or Justified by Christ's Blood [ Rom 5:9] and or His Death [Rom 5:10] and this before they believe !

Those Christ died for, shed His Blood for are not Justified by their pleasing God, but by His Pleasing God in their behalf, for it is said of Him by the Father Matt 3:1

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God Justifies the Ungodly, in that those Christ died for, shed His blood for, which blood Justified them before God, nevertheless they shall still be born as ungodly sinners as anyone else, but the Blood of Christ has always Justified them. To deny this Truth, is to deny the Gospel !
 
Justified while Ungodly !

God Justifieth the Ungodly Rom 4:5

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Note, its not Justifying the Believer, but the ones Believing , believed on Him that is Justifying the Ungodly, meaning God Justifieth the Elect while they were in a state of Ungodliness, as they were reconciled to God while they were being enemies Rom 5:10, even while they were being by nature Children of wrath as others !

Abraham was in a state of ungodliness when God Justified him ! As all are Justified by Christ's Righteousness, Abraham, while Ungodly was shown His Righteousness in the coming seed, so He rejoiced to see His Day !
 
Abraham was in a state of ungodliness when God Justified him ! As all areJustified by Christ's Righteousness, Abraham, while Ungodly was shown His Righteousness in the coming seed, so He rejoiced to see His Day!

The definition of “ungodly†is: “denying God or disobedient to Him; contrary to moral law; sinful, wicked.â€

Now Abraham was certainly a coward, but he was never “ungodly.†He was considered righteous because he believed in the promises of God. That is the true meaning of faith… to believe in the promises of God. Once he believed, what was his next step? He was circumcised and became obedient to God as a physical sign of his faith. Gen 26:5 tells us….. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. (even BEFORE they were engraved in stone at Sinai.) The same procedure applies to us: we hear and then believe the promises God has made to us and as a sign of that belief, we walk in obedience to Him.
 
nm
The definition of “ungodly†is:
“denying God or disobedient to Him; contrary to moral law; sinful,
wicked.â€

I know what Ungodly is, everyone is born that way ! Including Abraham !
 
Saved by Grace 57, I invite you to participate in my thread, WHY I CRINGE WHEN PEOPLE SAY IT IS ALL ABOUT CHOICE.

Now how can this be ? Because they are reconciled or Justified by Christ's Blood [ Rom 5:9] and or His Death [Rom 5:10] and this before they believe !
Because men think they choose freely to obey or disobey God, when wickedness is a state of mind and a condition of the heart.
 
The definition of ungodlyis: “denying God or disobedient to Him; contrary to moral law; sinful, wicked.

The same procedure applies to us: we hear and then believe the promises God has made to us and as a sign of that belief, we walk in obedience to Him.
So if God said we are all liars so as to convict all of sin and thereby gather up all in mercy, don't we have to admit our ungodliness so as to glorify Him and not make Him a liar?

I invite you to participate in my thread, WHY I CRINGE WHEN PEOPLE SAY IT IS ALL ABOUT CHOICE.
 
Justified before saved !


Paul writes Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Elect are Justified solely by the Blood of Christ, even before they are saved ! Paul states to the Church, being now Justified by His Blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. The we here is not just those he was then writing to, but includes all for whom the Blood of the Covenant was shed for, the many Matt 26:28, for they all were Justified by His Blood no matter what generation they would be born in, they shall be saved from wrath through Him ! All the Elect of God because of the Blood of Christ alone are saved from God's Wrath in this Life and the One to come. Those born children of wrath by nature, are even saved from God's Wrath, were others are said to have it abiding on them Jn 3:36

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God's wrath cannot be abiding on a Justified person, made so by Christ's Obedience Rom 5:19b, even though they are born enemies and unbelievers by Nature as Others !
 
I know what Ungodly is, everyone is born that way ! Including Abraham !
According to its definition, one cannot be born “ungodly†because it is a negative action to either deny God or disobey Him. It is a learned condition that we develope if we are born into an ungodly family. We are however, all born under the curse of Adam, of which we must be “born again.†You’ll be surprised to know that this is not a new thing, but one that is found in the Torah. If you’ll remember, the Messiah was incredulous that Nicodemus (a Torah “expertâ€) had no idea what He was talking about regarding the concept of being “born again.†The concept of being “born againâ€comes from Gen 5:3 where Adam’s 3
rd son Seth was born in the image of Adam instead of in the image of God. It is a common misconception that we are all born in the image of God and that is simply untrue. It was a spiritual thing in Genesis just like its a spiritual thing now.


So if God said we are all liars so as to convict all of sin and thereby gather up all in mercy, don't we have to admit our ungodliness so as to glorify Him and not make Him a liar?
You are correct. To be ungodly is an act of either denying God (which I don't think anyone on this forum denies Him) or being disobedient to Him. Since the church teaches the Law is "done away with," I humbly submit that Christianity as a whole is ungodly. But very soon God will gather His people in great mercy, and we will admit our disobendience (sin) to Him in great shame and He will kosher us (make our garments white as snow) and write His law on our hearts. Then there will be no need for forums like this.
 
nm

According to its definition, one cannot
be born “ungodlyâ€

Sure they can, and are, that is just in your imagination ! Christ died for the elect while they were ungodly Rom 5:6

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The elect, as the non elect, the wicked, come from the womb speaking lies Ps 58:3

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+58:2-4&version=KJV
Is speaking lies ungodly behaviour ?

 
You are correct. To be ungodly is an act of either denying God (which I don't think anyone on this forum denies Him) or being disobedient to Him. Since the church teaches the Law is "done away with," I humbly submit that Christianity as a whole is ungodly. But very soon God will gather His people in great mercy, and we will admit our disobendience (sin) to Him in great shame and He will kosher us (make our garments white as snow) and write His law on our hearts. Then there will be no need for forums like this.
There is a distinction to be made between the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Bible describes one as by the Oldness of the letter and the other as in the Newness of the Spirit. Terms such as ungodly are applied accordingly. If I were to seek to be right before God through the following of written ordinances, then indeed to be ungodly is either an act of denying God's existence or being disobedient to His commandments. But if I am looking to recieve a Spirit inside that will accomplish the intent of the law without ever even reading the law, then ungodliness is interpreted as the presence of spiritual depravity, vanity of the mind, or impurity of the heart.

Semantics happen partly because the Old and New Testaments are contrasting perspectives. Consequently, when someone says the Law is done away with, they are saying it no longer is necessary as a means to righteousness, or is obsolete to those who have been given the Spirit.

But Those from an Old Testament perspective hear them saying it's okay to break the law, now that we are in the New Testament. These are misunderstandings for the most part due to semantics.
 
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Is speaking lies ungodly behaviour ?
Babies start speaking lies their parents teach them. During the first year or so, we have no concept of right or wrong except what is taught to us. Yes, to speak a lie is ungodly behavior.


There is a distinction to be made between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
There is only one distinction: the law was written on stone in the “Old” while it will be written on our heart for the “New.”


Semantics happen partly because the Old and New Testaments are contrasting perspectives.
I’m NOT saying this to ruffle your feathers or to make you mad (that is not my intent at all), but you believe this (and I did too up until about 10 years ago) because this is what you’ve been taught, and no one has bothered to teach you the “Old” but have only focused on the “New.” That is the only reason why you do not understand either of them correctly. If you wish to have a better understanding here’s a good thing to remember:


The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and
The Old Testament is the New Testament revealed.

Consequently,when someone says the Law is done away with, they are saying it no longer is necessary as a means to righteousness, or is obsolete to those who have been given the Spirit.
The law was NEVER a means to righteousness. Righteousness comes from believing the promises of God. The law is a means to life as Moses, David and Solomon emphatically tell us. Not just a spiritual life, but a prolonged, healthy physical life.
 
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There is only one distinction: the law was written on stone in the “Old” while it will be written on our heart for the “New.”

I’m NOT saying this to ruffle your feathers or to make you mad (that is not my intent at all), but you believe this (and I did too up until about 10 years ago) because this is what you’ve been taught, and no one has bothered to teach you the “Old” but have only focused on the “New.” That is the only reason why you do not understand either of them correctly. If you wish to have a better understanding here’s a good thing to remember:

The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and
The Old Testament is the New Testament revealed.

The law was NEVER a means to righteousness. Righteousness comes from believing the promises of God. The law is a means to life as Moses, David and Solomon emphatically tell us. Not just a spiritual life, but a prolonged, healthy physical life.
You need have no fear of ruffling my feathers, I am only grateful for any correction. However, I honestly don't understand how to take in what you are saying about the Old and New Testament. I have not been taught by any man. But it is not in my teaching to believe I know all there is to learn. Paul called the law the beggarly elements and it became a covenant of death because of sin. There are two doors to the tabernacle and two Olive trees, but they are both necessary to witness to the Glory of God. You mention physical life and I would assume you mean on this earth in flesh forms as pertaining to health. But exactly what do you mean when you say I have been not taught the Old Testament? And what have I said to bring you to that conclusion? You say it is a means to life whereas I would say it is what Godly Love does and that Godly Love is Life.
 
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Paul called the law the beggarly elements and it became a covenant of death because of sin.
In 2 Pete 3:15 we are told that Paul’s letters contain “….some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable peoplet wist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. In Acts 22:3 Paul describes himself as “…being but brought up at the feet of Gamaliel…” This is highly significant because Gamaliel required all his students to have the entire Torah (Gen-Deut) memorized letter for letter by the time they were 13 years old! My point here is that Paul was a Torah EXPERT, and he was trying to emphasize that it was not that the law itself that is death, but the PENALTY for breaking it. To break the law is the definition of sin.


In our own judicial system we have a set of laws in place to protect the general public at large. Each one has a degree of penalty that range from a speeding ticket all the way to the death penalty. The same applies to the law of God: from the commandment of kindness (not eating the mama bird and her chick on the same day) all the way to murder. To help put this in perspective… is our judicial system (our laws here in the U.S.) a covenant with death? Only if we commit a heinous crime, right? The laws are put in place so the population can live together harmoniously and for the common good of all. Remember, when God brought us up out of Egypt, we were slaves to Egypt and had no idea how to govern ourselves. The Lord took us out of slavery and made us a FREE people!

But exactly what do you mean when you say I have been not taught the Old Testament?
Simon Peter, John, Paul, Silas, James and Jude ALL proclaim to be “bond-servants” (some translations say “slaves”) of the Lord. Without the basic instructions of Torah we have no idea what that means, so we either ignore it or make substitutions. The law of the bond-servant directly follows the 10 commandments and is found in Ex 21:2-6


If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; Iwill not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. This is the foundation of our faith in the Messiah! Our Master has bought and paid for us in His blood. If we desire to accept that payment we now belong to Him… we are His property. If our Master gives us a husband or wife and we decide not to stay, we go out alone because they did not belong to us in the first place. But if we decide that we LOVE our Master and want to stay with Him, we are marked as belonging to Him forever!

What Paul is trying to explain in Gal 4:1-12 is how those who were not born into the house can be adopted into the house. No one is truly free to do as they please. We are either slaves to God and righteousness or slaves to the world and sin. These Galations were adopted into the commonwealth of Israel, just like you and I were. They/we were slaves to the world, but have chosen to be slaves to the Lord instead. We don’t know exactly what these letters were addressing, i.e. WHAT days and months? IMHO I believe they had regressed back to their pagan ways of worship, slapping the name of God upon it. But note he urges them to become like him…. A BOND SERVANT. Paul has ALWAYS urged Gentiles to be obedient to their Master, and encourages them to hear what their new Master expects of them by going to the synagogues every Sabbath to hear Moses being read. The Messiah even told them this. What was the Messiah’s contention with the religious leaders of His day? They were NOT following Moses because they had made up their own laws…. The “traditions of men.”

The law of the bond-servant is just one example of

The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and
The Old Testament is the New Testament revealed.

 
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Simon Peter, John, Paul, Silas, James and Jude ALL proclaim to be “bond-servants” (some translations say “slaves”) of the Lord. Without the basic instructions of Torah we have no idea what that means, so we either ignore it or make substitutions. The law of the bond-servant directly follows the 10 commandments and is found in Ex 21:2-6

If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; Iwill not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. This is the foundation of our faith in the Messiah! Our Master has bought and paid for us in His blood. If we desire to accept that payment we now belong to Him… we are His property. If our Master gives us a husband or wife and we decide not to stay, we go out alone because they did not belong to us in the first place. But if we decide that we LOVE our Master and want to stay with Him, we are marked as belonging to Him forever!

What Paul is trying to explain in Gal 4:1-12 is how those who were not born into the house can be adopted into the house. No one is truly free to do as they please. We are either slaves to God and righteousness or slaves to the world and sin. These Galations were adopted into the commonwealth of Israel, just like you and I were. They/we were slaves to the world, but have chosen to be slaves to the Lord instead. We don’t know exactly what these letters were addressing, i.e. WHAT days and months? IMHO I believe they had regressed back to their pagan ways of worship, slapping the name of God upon it. But note he urges them to become like him…. A BOND SERVANT. Paul has ALWAYS urged Gentiles to be obedient to their Master, and encourages them to hear what their new Master expects of them by going to the synagogues every Sabbath to hear Moses being read. The Messiah even told them this. What was the Messiah’s contention with the religious leaders of His day? They were NOT following Moses because they had made up their own laws…. The “traditions of men.”

The law of the bond-servant is just one example of

The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and
The Old Testament is the New Testament revealed.

Traditions of men can be either good or evil. Some traditions of men are neutral. Traditions that negate or void the commandments of God are evil traditions of men, but traditions that uphold and enhance the worship of God are good traditions of men. An example of a good tradition of men is the celebration of Hanukkah. An example of an evil tradition of men is explained in Mark 7:5-13.

To continue with your slavery theme:

1 Corinthians 7:21-23 (NKJV)
21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. 22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.


In other words, do not revert to your previous state of unrighteousness by choosing to disobey God's commandments.


Romans 6:17-22 (NKJV)
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.


Entering into eternal life is conditional on whether a person remains obedient to God's commandments after he has been born again. If the person does not continue in obedience to God's commandments, he will not enter into eternal life.

When we are born again spiritually, we are adopted into God's family and we thereby become heirs of God and we will inherit eternal life if we remain His heirs until we die.

Galatians 4:4-7 (NKJV)
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


However, if a born again adopted son or daughter chooses to revert back to his former sinful lifestyle, he/she is then called a son/daughter of disobedience and as a consequence of his/her sins, s/he is disinherited. A disinherited son/daughter does not inherit/enter eternal life in heaven with God unless s/he repents again before s/he dies.

Ephesians 5:5-7 (NKJV)
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Luke 8:21 (NKJV)
21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”


There are only two possibilities for eternity: heaven with God or hell with Satan.

If we imitate Jesus' obedience to His Father's commands until we die, we will join Him in heaven with His Father for eternity.

If we imitate Satan's disobedience to God's commands and die unrepentant, we will join Satan and the other devils in hell for eternity.

John 5:26-30 (NKJV)
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
 
…..traditions that uphold and enhance the worship of God are good traditions of men.
God has been VERY specific about how He wants to be worshipped. The Altar is God’s Table, and He has instructed, “I want meat, wine and bread on My Table so that when men come to do business with Me I can show hospitality when I receive them.” To change anything concerning His instructions on this subject, one only needs to look at Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu who wanted to “enhance” their worship by offering strange fire. See Lev 10.


An example of a good tradition of men is the celebration of Hanukkah.
Except the traditions of men have fouled that one up, too. Everybody knows the story of how the oil miraculously lasted 8 days, right? WRONG! The book of Maccabees documents the entire event with absolutely NO mention of the oil. Even here, the enemy is doing everything he can to get our attention away from the most important thing: God’s ownership mark of the whole earth… His Altar. Hanukkah is a celebration of the victory of the rebellion that occurred in response to the following decrees ordered by Antiochus Epiphanes IV:


Don’t follow the Torah
Don’t circumcise your children
Don’t celebrate the Sabbath
Don’t observe the Festivals
Don’t consider the Temple, and don’t do anything with it (The book of Hebrews does the same thing)
Eat pig!

What is truly amazing is that traditional Christianity says that following these evil decrees is how we express our faith in the Messiah!

Entering into eternal life is conditional on whether a person remains obedient to God's commandments after he has been born again. If the person does not continue in obedience to God's commandments, he will not enter into eternal life.
That’s getting very close to the Jewish (yes, Jewish!) theology of “obedience equals righteousness” and that is simply not the case. This is what Paul had so much trouble trying to explain in his epistles. All I can say is to remember the words of Messiah in Matt 5:19… Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them,he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. He says that one who is disobedient will be the LEAST in the Kingdom. They'll make it in, but they'll be "low on the totem pole" so to speak. But is He talking about those who disobey in ignorance or those who disobey knowingly? I can't answer that nor do I want to. That's between them and God. But I will emphatically state that being obedient to the Lord in ALL that He has instructed (meaning not stopping at the 10th commandment) is ALWAYS a wise move, as the wisest of the wise (King Solomon) goes to such great lenghts to convey to us in his book of Proverbs. Every time you come across the word "wisdom" in his first 9 chapters substitute it for "God's Laws" and you will find true wisdom.
 
God has been VERY specific about how He wants to be worshipped. The Altar is God’s Table, and He has instructed, “I want meat, wine and bread on My Table so that when men come to do business with Me I can show hospitality when I receive them.†To change anything concerning His instructions on this subject, one only needs to look at Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu who wanted to “enhance†their worship by offering strange fire. See Lev 10.

Leviticus 10 NKJV
10 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them.


Nadab and Abihu did not have the authority to offer fire at that particular time before the Lord. This is why they were killed.

Not everything regarding worship is written in Scripture. Written history leaves out many details. The important things regarding the worship practices were made known in detail to the persons who were in charge of this worship so that they could fulfill them correctly. Only some of these important things were included in the written historical accounts of this People of God.

Leviticus 9:22-23 NKJV
Then Aaron lifted his hand toward the people, blessed them, and came down from offering the sin offering, the burnt offering, and peace offerings. 23 And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed the people.


We do not know what words Aaron was commanded to say for the blessing. We do not know what gestures he was required to use when making the blessing. We do not know if he held something in his hand when he blessed the people. Scripture is silent on these important things.

Except the traditions of men have fouled that one up, too. Everybody knows the story of how the oil miraculously lasted 8 days, right? WRONG! The book of Maccabees documents the entire event with absolutely NO mention of the oil. Even here, the enemy is doing everything he can to get our attention away from the most important thing: God’s ownership mark of the whole earth… His Altar. Hanukkah is a celebration of the victory of the rebellion that occurred in response to the following decrees ordered by Antiochus Epiphanes IV:

Don’t follow the Torah
Don’t circumcise your children
Don’t celebrate the Sabbath
Don’t observe the Festivals
Don’t consider the Temple, and don’t do anything with it (The book of Hebrews does the same thing)
Eat pig!

What is truly amazing is that traditional Christianity says that following these evil decrees is how we express our faith in the Messiah!

1 Maccabees 4 DRA

1 Maccabees 4:50 DRA
50And they put incense upon the altar, and lighted up the lamps that were upon the candlestick, and they gave light in the temple.

.....56And they kept the dedication of the altar eight days, and they offered holocausts with joy, and sacrifices of salvation, and of praise.

.....59And Judas, and his brethren, and all the church of Israel decreed, that the day of the dedication of the altar should be kept in its season from year to year for eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the month of Casleu, with joy and gladness.


They lighted up the lamps that were upon the candlestick is a reference to the oil. Oil was the fuel used to light the lamps upon the candlestick.

You believe that everything must be documented in Scripture in order to be worthy of belief, but Scripture does not say this. Many important things were passed down throughout the ages and some of these were not written down. The oral traditions of the Jews are valuable for us to learn in order to know the rest of the story about their history.

As you can see, this Hanukkah tradition did not begin until Judas instituted it and all Jews still celebrate it today. I think that Jesus most likely celebrated it since it was part of His Jewish tradition. There is no reference in Scripture that states that He despised this so-called man-made tradition and consequently refused to celebrate it. Jews today know the oral history/tradition about Hanukkah and they joyfully celebrate its significance every year.

That’s getting very close to the Jewish (yes, Jewish!) theology of “obedience equals righteousness†and that is simply not the case. This is what Paul had so much trouble trying to explain in his epistles. All I can say is to remember the words of Messiah in Matt 5:19… “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them,he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. He says that one who is disobedient will be the LEAST in the Kingdom. They'll make it in, but they'll be "low on the totem pole" so to speak. But is He talking about those who disobey in ignorance or those who disobey knowingly? I can't answer that nor do I want to. That's between them and God. But I will emphatically state that being obedient to the Lord in ALL that He has instructed (meaning not stopping at the 10th commandment) is ALWAYS a wise move, as the wisest of the wise (King Solomon) goes to such great lenghts to convey to us in his book of Proverbs. Every time you come across the word "wisdom" in his first 9 chapters substitute it for "God's Laws" and you will find true wisdom.

Matt 5:19… “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Let's look at the Scripture verses which include your quote:

Matthew 5:17-20 NKJV
17 “Don’t even begin to think that I have come to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I haven’t come to do away with them but to fulfill them. 18 I say to you very seriously that as long as heaven and earth exist, neither the smallest letter nor even the smallest stroke of a pen will be erased from the Law until everything there becomes a reality. 19 Therefore, whoever ignores one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do the same will be called the lowest in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps these commands and teaches people to keep them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 I say to you that unless your righteousness is greater than the righteousness of the legal experts and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


A person's faith plus his obedience to God's commandments which includes doing the good works which God had prepared for him to do before the world was created does continue his righteousness after he has been redeemed and this continuation in righteousness until his death approves him to enter into eternal life when he dies.

Peter gives us more light on this subject:

Acts 10:34-36 (NKJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—


Jesus reconciled us to God by His sacrificial death on the cross. None of us deserved His gift of grace which He gave to us. None of us could earn this gift of grace which He gave to us. However, we each individually receive this gift of reconciliation with God when we are born again spiritually.

This reconciliation makes us "right" with God. We have been justified/absolved of our sins and made righteous in the sight of God. This righteousness/justification now makes it possible for us to enter into eternal life. This reconciliation gives us hope that we will be approved to enter into eternal life after we die.

However, entering into eternal life is conditional upon whether we continue in our justification/righteousness which Jesus gave us until we die. If we obey God's commandments until we die, we will inherit eternal life. If we believe for awhile, but then deny Him by our sinful deeds/works and do not repent of them before we die, we will not inherit eternal life.

Jesus explains this to us:

Luke 8:11-15 NKJV
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Luke 8:13 (NKJV)
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


The people who believe/obey for a while and then fall away do not inherit eternal life.

Luke 8:14 NKJV
Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.


These believers do not produce good fruit/good works and so they do not inherit eternal life.

Matthew 13:38-43 (NKJV)
38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Matthew 7:13-25 (NKJV)
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


Christians who do not produce good fruit/do good works will be condemned to hell fire.


Who will inherit eternal life?

Mark 4:20-21 (NKJV)
20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.â€


Bearing good fruit is faith working through love of God and of neighbor.

James 2:20-24 (NKJV)
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


The born again people who choose to continue to obey God's commandments which include doing good works/producing good fruit until they die will be approved to inherit eternal life when they die.

Born gain people who do not choose to continue to obey God's commandments and/or who do not choose to do the good works He has assigned to them will not be approved to enter into eternal life after they die.
 
In 2 Pete 3:15 we are told that Paul’s letters contain “….some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable peoplet wist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. In Acts 22:3 Paul describes himself as “…being but brought up at the feet of Gamaliel…” This is highly significant because Gamaliel required all his students to have the entire Torah (Gen-Deut) memorized letter for letter by the time they were 13 years old! My point here is that Paul was a Torah EXPERT, and he was trying to emphasize that it was not that the law itself that is death, but the PENALTY for breaking it. To break the law is the definition of sin.
After reading this, I would say I do not disagree with what you are saying for the most part. However I would have contention with the aspect that breaking the law is the defintion of sin instead opting for the view that sin breaks the law. As in a direction away from life towards death, and a power in man that exists for the sake of deceiving man in his own sense of ungodly self-righteousness. For sin was dead without the law and was revived through the law. Moreover the law entered in so that sin would become exceedingly sinful.

In our own judicial system we have a set of laws in place to protect the general public at large. Each one has a degree of penalty that range from a speeding ticket all the way to the death penalty. The same applies to the law of God: from the commandment of kindness (not eating the mama bird and her chick on the same day) all the way to murder. To help put this in perspective… is our judicial system (our laws here in the U.S.) a covenant with death? Only if we commit a heinous crime, right? The laws are put in place so the population can live together harmoniously and for the common good of all. Remember, when God brought us up out of Egypt, we were slaves to Egypt and had no idea how to govern ourselves. The Lord took us out of slavery and made us a FREE people!

I agree with you here and only add that Love fulfills the law and there is no law against Love.


Simon Peter, John, Paul, Silas, James and Jude ALL proclaim to be “bond-servants” (some translations say “slaves”) of the Lord. Without the basic instructions of Torah we have no idea what that means, so we either ignore it or make substitutions. The law of the bond-servant directly follows the 10 commandments and is found in Ex 21:2-6

But I am certain it means that those who know God's Character are willing servants unto God. But more importantly is that to be a son one is no longer considered a servant.
If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; Iwill not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever. This is the foundation of our faith in the Messiah! Our Master has bought and paid for us in His blood. If we desire to accept that payment we now belong to Him… we are His property. If our Master gives us a husband or wife and we decide not to stay, we go out alone because they did not belong to us in the first place. But if we decide that we LOVE our Master and want to stay with Him, we are marked as belonging to Him forever!

What Paul is trying to explain in Gal 4:1-12 is how those who were not born into the house can be adopted into the house. No one is truly free to do as they please. We are either slaves to God and righteousness or slaves to the world and sin. These Galations were adopted into the commonwealth of Israel, just like you and I were. They/we were slaves to the world, but have chosen to be slaves to the Lord instead. We don’t know exactly what these letters were addressing, i.e. WHAT days and months? IMHO I believe they had regressed back to their pagan ways of worship, slapping the name of God upon it. But note he urges them to become like him…. A BOND SERVANT. Paul has ALWAYS urged Gentiles to be obedient to their Master, and encourages them to hear what their new Master expects of them by going to the synagogues every Sabbath to hear Moses being read. The Messiah even told them this. What was the Messiah’s contention with the religious leaders of His day? They were NOT following Moses because they had made up their own laws…. The “traditions of men.”

The law of the bond-servant is just one example of

The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and
The Old Testament is the New Testament revealed.


You are right in context about what you say here. Please excuse the semantics I will apply, but while it is true one is not free to do as they please, it is also true that one born of the Spirit of God so that His Spirit has now become the character of the one reborn; this one does do as he pleases for all that pleases him to do is only righteousness. Hence the mind of Christ does not count it sin to count one's self equal to God, but submits himself as a servant to all.
 
Nadab and Abihu did not have the authority to offer fire at that particular time before the Lord. This is why they were killed.
This is my point about man-made traditions to “enhance the worship of God.†No one has such authority.


Not everything regarding worship is written in Scripture.
The book of Psalms IS the “written history†of the prayers spoken in the Temple, and have been prayed three times a day by observant Jews since theTemple was destroyed 2000 years ago. The details of the services have also been preserved in a book called the “Mishna.†The Levites in Jerusalem have been preparing (and are now ready) to reestablish the Altar and are waiting only for the right time to do so. If you’ve been paying attention to what’s happening in the Middle East, you would know the time frame is down to a matter of months now.


We do not know what words Aaron was commanded to say for the blessing. We do not know what gestures he was required to use when making the blessing....Scripture is silent on these important things.
Mr. Spock’s (Star Trek) “Live long and prosper†hand greeting (2 pairs of fingers splayed apart) IS that gesture…. except instead of on just the one hand, the high priest splayes out his fingers on BOTH hands. He raises his arms out in front of his chest towards the people with his thumbs touching and his pointy fingers touching, making a triangle. He then says, “And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, 'This is the way you shall bless the children of Israel. Say to them: "The Lord bless you and keep you; The Lord make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace." (Num 6:22-26) Since this gesture is reserved for the High Priest only, Torah teachers and rabbis wrap their tzitzit (the fringes of the corners of their prayer shawls) around their fingers, and lift their arms toward the people of their congregation. This blessing is said at the conclusion of every Sabbath evening service.



They lighted up the lamps that were upon the candlestick is a reference to the oil. Oil was the fuel used to light the lamps upon the candlestick.
Tradition focuses on “having only enough oil for one day, yet miraculously it lasted for 8 days.†THAT is NOT recorded. The REAL miracle is that a handful of people zealous for the Lord and His commandments obtained victory over the invincible Romans; aka: “they prevailed over the Beast.†The same will be true in this generation during the Great Tribulation. Those who stand for the Lord AND His commandments will prevail over the Beast. Since you proclaim to be a believer in the Messiah AND stand for His commandments, you should be observing Hanukkah as well.


As you can see, this Hanukkah tradition did not begin until Judas instituted it and all Jews still celebrate it today. I think that Jesus most likely celebrated it since it was part of His Jewish tradition.There is no reference in Scripture that states that He despised this so-called man-made tradition and consequently refused to celebrate it. Jews today know the oral history/tradition about Hanukkah and they joyfully celebrate its significance every year.
I am not against Hanukkah, as I observe it every year. What I AM against is the “one day’s supply of oil lasting for 8 days.†That is not recorded and it takes away from the REAL miracle.


Since you seem to be "pro-obedience," allow me to test the waters: Passover is next week. Are you observing it in your home or with a group?



 
…breaking the law is the defintion of sin….. sin breaks the law.
The wording is a little bit different, but in effect you’re saying the same thing and yet somehow your brain thinks the 2 are different. I was "brainwashed" like that, too! I encourage you to read Psalms 119.


For sin was dead without the law and was revived through the law. Moreover the law entered in so that sin would become exceedingly sinful
While it was presented to us written in stone as our marriage vows at Mt Sinai, the law has been in place since the creation. The first mention of sin is when Cain’s offering was not accepted. The offerings Cain and Abel were making were most likely either the morning or the evening lamb (aka: the continual burnt offering of Ex 29:39.) Abraham was obedient centuries before Sinai (Gen 26:5)


I agree with you here and only add that Love fulfills the law and there is no law against Love.
Since “fulfill†is opposite of “abolish†(Mat 5:17) the correct defintion of fulfill is to “make greater than it was before.†Obedience proves love.


But I am certain it means that those who know God's Character are willing servants unto God.
God describes Himself as having 13 characters (or attributes), which MATCH the 13 sacrifices. So which character are you referring to? And Christianity as a whole are NOT “willing servants†because they refuse to obey.
 
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