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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
daninthelionsden
Member
You mean outside the known universe? Is this why the sky will tear open upon His return?
I mean the third heaven as scripture defines it is in the Spiritual realm of God and not a literal place you could find on a map.
Nathaniel was not one of the 12 called disciples, but Andrew was, but both were disciples of John the Baptist before Christ began His ministry the very next day. It was John the Baptist that said "Behold, the Lamb of God" as only John would know this. That's when Andrew and Nathaniel began to follow Jesus, but they still had no idea who He was as being the Son of God. Nathaniel and Andrew like all the disciples Jesus called at first only knew Him as Rabbi/teacher. Even Nathaniel asked Philip if anything good could come out of Nazareth. That shows Nathaniel did not know Jesus for who He truly is as being the Son of God, but only a Rabbi/teacher. Nathaniel even went as far as asking Jesus if He was the son of God, but it seems like he knew Jesus as only being a King over Israel like all the other Kings. Read vs. 51 as this shows none of the disciples would know Jesus as truly being the Son of God until the passion of Christ in the upper room on the day of Pentecost after Jesus revealed Himself to all of them which were 120 gathered in the upper room that day.
BTW, Jesus had many disciples other then the 12 He called as a disciple is one who follows Jesus.
Walpole
Member
Nathaniel WAS indeed one of the 12 Apostles. (He is also called Bartholomew.)
Both he and Andrew were the first to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of God.
I have to disagree as Nathaniel is not the same as Bartholomew as that is only speculation and highly debated and he was not the first one to believe in Christ being the Son of God, but Andrew was. Nathaniel is only mentioned in John 1:43-51 and John 21:1 and was not one of the 12, but yet numbered among the the many disciples of Christ probably being among the 120 in the upper room on the day of Pentecost as being a disciple meaning a follower of Christ.
In John 1:29-51 from vs. 29-34 John the Baptist was the first one to recognize Jesus when He came to John as he said, Behold the Lamb of God as he bore record that Jesus is the Son of God.
Vs. 37-51 the two disciples heard Jesus speak and became disciples (followers of Christ) of Jesus in who were Andrew the son of Jonas and John the son of Zebedee as after they witnessed the Holy Spirit falling on Jesus that day believed Jesus to be the Son of God. Now Andrew first found his brother Simon Peter who was the next to believe and then came Philip and then Nathaniel.
When you read Matthew 16:13-19 Simon Peter, unlike Andrew and John, did not witness Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist. Out of all the other disciples, except for Andrew and John, that were there with Jesus at Caesarea Philippi none could answer the question set before them except for Simon Peter as he was the only one who knew and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. This is the reason Jesus said "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. The rock is God and His grace by faith that the church is built upon beginning with Simon Peter who was the first one to received the keys of the kingdom of God being God's power and authority given to him/ us by God's grace through faith to carry on the works of the Lord taking the Gospel message out into the world speaking with God's authority and power through the Holy Spirit that indwells us.
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Anto9us2
Member
www.keyway.ca/htm2005/20051130.htm
Many think the Synoptics call him Bartholomew, and John calls him Nathaniel.
Many think the Synoptics call him Bartholomew, and John calls him Nathaniel.
5 points to ponder arising from Matthew 16:16-19:
(1) In Matthew 16 "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" were specifically given only to Peter, not the other disciples or Christians in general. The "keys" represent the authority to declare who is included and excluded from the kingdom of heaven.
(2) Peter's authority to "bind and loose" for heaven is given to the Church in Matthew 18:18. The authority of disciples to actually forgive sins (John 20:22-23) is an extension of this authority to bind and loose. It is an open question as to how far, if at all, Peter's power of "the keys" extends beyond this authority. Matthew 16:16-19 is an important Gospel proof text for the foundation of Catholic priestly and papal authority through apostolic succession. btw, I'm not Catholic.
(3) Catholic churches have a confessional for the priestly mediation of divine forgiveness. This mediation of forgiveness presumes confession of sins: "Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed (James 5:16-- i.e. healed both spiritually and physically)." Evangelicals make no provision in their services for formal confession and pastoral mediation of forgiveness.
(4) Evangelicals generally just confess their sins to God in prayer, citing 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." But this verse doesn't specify how the sins are to be confessed, whether directly to God or to God through a priest or minister. Can Jesus' provision for human mediation of divine forgiveness be safely ignored? Does the Catholic obligation to confess before a priest not encourage more sober reflection on the extent and severity of our sins? Does the Evangelical approach unwittingly encourage cheap grace through erratic, glib, and superficial confession?
(5) During the great Methodist revival in the 1800s Methodists were required to attend weekly class meetings during which they had to confess the inner and outer state of their souls, that is, their thought life and their conduct during the past week. In 1870 this confessional discipline sparked a revival that resulted in 40% of Americans becoming Methodists. Then in the early 1900s these class meetings were made optional and in effect nullified because Methodists were more reluctant to air their dirty linen to each ot her. Methodism has suffered a slow steady decline ever since.
(1) In Matthew 16 "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" were specifically given only to Peter, not the other disciples or Christians in general. The "keys" represent the authority to declare who is included and excluded from the kingdom of heaven.
(2) Peter's authority to "bind and loose" for heaven is given to the Church in Matthew 18:18. The authority of disciples to actually forgive sins (John 20:22-23) is an extension of this authority to bind and loose. It is an open question as to how far, if at all, Peter's power of "the keys" extends beyond this authority. Matthew 16:16-19 is an important Gospel proof text for the foundation of Catholic priestly and papal authority through apostolic succession. btw, I'm not Catholic.
(3) Catholic churches have a confessional for the priestly mediation of divine forgiveness. This mediation of forgiveness presumes confession of sins: "Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed (James 5:16-- i.e. healed both spiritually and physically)." Evangelicals make no provision in their services for formal confession and pastoral mediation of forgiveness.
(4) Evangelicals generally just confess their sins to God in prayer, citing 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." But this verse doesn't specify how the sins are to be confessed, whether directly to God or to God through a priest or minister. Can Jesus' provision for human mediation of divine forgiveness be safely ignored? Does the Catholic obligation to confess before a priest not encourage more sober reflection on the extent and severity of our sins? Does the Evangelical approach unwittingly encourage cheap grace through erratic, glib, and superficial confession?
(5) During the great Methodist revival in the 1800s Methodists were required to attend weekly class meetings during which they had to confess the inner and outer state of their souls, that is, their thought life and their conduct during the past week. In 1870 this confessional discipline sparked a revival that resulted in 40% of Americans becoming Methodists. Then in the early 1900s these class meetings were made optional and in effect nullified because Methodists were more reluctant to air their dirty linen to each ot her. Methodism has suffered a slow steady decline ever since.
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Berserk
The keys of the kingdom were only given to Peter as God revealed to him that Jesus is the Son of God. The other disciples would know that later during the passion of Christ, Acts 1, 2.
It has nothing to do with a Catholic Priest and the confessional booth or any clergy as none of them, nor us has any power to forgive sins. All things are done by the power and authority of Christ. Man has no authority to forgive sin as that is God's alone as Jesus is our mediator before the Father, 1 Timothy 2:1-5; Mark 2:5-12.
We can only forgive those who trespass against us, but only God can forgive our sin. Matthew 20:22, 23 Jesus tells His disciples if you forgive anyone his sins he is forgiven. It's only by faith in Christ that our own sins can be forgiven. Acts 10:43, 44 when Peter was sharing the gospel he said that everyone who believes in Jesus receives forgiveness of sins through the name of Jesus. Jesus never communicated any such power to His disciples, nor did they ever assume such power to themselves.
The power and authority we receive by God's grace comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that works in us and through us as we take the Gospel message out into the world. John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. Meaning we are to forgive others who trespass against us so that God will forgive us our sin, but if we do not forgive our Father in heaven will not forgive us our sins, Matthew 16:14, 15.
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
These are just a few verses out of many in the Bible that shows us it is only God who can forgive our sins: Psalms 51; Matthew 6:9-13; John 2:1, 2; 20:23; Hebrews 4:14-16; 7:25; 1 Timothy 2:5.
James 5:16 tells us that we may confess our faults to one another for the purpose of praying for each other as in asking God to help another with their fault, weaknesses.
The keys of the kingdom were only given to Peter as God revealed to him that Jesus is the Son of God. The other disciples would know that later during the passion of Christ, Acts 1, 2.
It has nothing to do with a Catholic Priest and the confessional booth or any clergy as none of them, nor us has any power to forgive sins. All things are done by the power and authority of Christ. Man has no authority to forgive sin as that is God's alone as Jesus is our mediator before the Father, 1 Timothy 2:1-5; Mark 2:5-12.
We can only forgive those who trespass against us, but only God can forgive our sin. Matthew 20:22, 23 Jesus tells His disciples if you forgive anyone his sins he is forgiven. It's only by faith in Christ that our own sins can be forgiven. Acts 10:43, 44 when Peter was sharing the gospel he said that everyone who believes in Jesus receives forgiveness of sins through the name of Jesus. Jesus never communicated any such power to His disciples, nor did they ever assume such power to themselves.
The power and authority we receive by God's grace comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that works in us and through us as we take the Gospel message out into the world. John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. Meaning we are to forgive others who trespass against us so that God will forgive us our sin, but if we do not forgive our Father in heaven will not forgive us our sins, Matthew 16:14, 15.
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
These are just a few verses out of many in the Bible that shows us it is only God who can forgive our sins: Psalms 51; Matthew 6:9-13; John 2:1, 2; 20:23; Hebrews 4:14-16; 7:25; 1 Timothy 2:5.
James 5:16 tells us that we may confess our faults to one another for the purpose of praying for each other as in asking God to help another with their fault, weaknesses.
For his glory: "The keys of the kingdom were only given to Peter as God revealed to him that Jesus is the Son of God. The other disciples would know that later during the passion of Christ, Acts 1, 2. It has nothing to do with a Catholic Priest and the confessional booth or any clergy. We can only forgive those who trespass against us, but only God can forgive our sin."
I challenge you to find even one academic commentary on John that agrees with you. Your interpretation can be refuted on 4 grounds:
(1) John 20:22- 23 says nothing about sins committed against the forgiver:
"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
(2) The disciples are given the authority to withhold forgiveness, in which case "any" sins are "retained!" This means that the disciples have the authority to determine whether sinners have been forgiven by God or not. Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit on them to ensure that their discernment of honest confession is accurate.
(3) Peter's power of "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" is just that, the power to determine for whom the doors of the kingdom of heaven get unlocked for entrance and for whom the doors remain locked for exclusion from salvation and forgiveness. That is what human "binding" and "loosing" 'in heaven" mean! All academic book commentaries on Matthew and John agree with the above points! I am not Catholic; I am an Evangelical, but I must confess that we Evangelicals have got it wrong on this issue!
For his glory: "Acts 10:43, 44 when Peter was sharing the gospel he said that everyone who believes in Jesus receives forgiveness of sins through the name of Jesus."
(4) What you overlook is that Acts 10:43-44 is talking about salvation gained through an initial profession of faith. But Matthew 16:19 an John 20:22-23 are talking about the human mediation of forgiveness for post-baptismal sin. That is why Jesus' brother James teaches: "Confess your sins to each other and pray for one another, so that you may be healed (James 5:17)." Notice that James does NOT say, "Confess your sins to God" but rather "to each other." The spiritual and physical healing is to benefit from human mediation.
I challenge you to find even one academic commentary on John that agrees with you. Your interpretation can be refuted on 4 grounds:
(1) John 20:22- 23 says nothing about sins committed against the forgiver:
"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
(2) The disciples are given the authority to withhold forgiveness, in which case "any" sins are "retained!" This means that the disciples have the authority to determine whether sinners have been forgiven by God or not. Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit on them to ensure that their discernment of honest confession is accurate.
(3) Peter's power of "the keys of the kingdom of heaven" is just that, the power to determine for whom the doors of the kingdom of heaven get unlocked for entrance and for whom the doors remain locked for exclusion from salvation and forgiveness. That is what human "binding" and "loosing" 'in heaven" mean! All academic book commentaries on Matthew and John agree with the above points! I am not Catholic; I am an Evangelical, but I must confess that we Evangelicals have got it wrong on this issue!
For his glory: "Acts 10:43, 44 when Peter was sharing the gospel he said that everyone who believes in Jesus receives forgiveness of sins through the name of Jesus."
(4) What you overlook is that Acts 10:43-44 is talking about salvation gained through an initial profession of faith. But Matthew 16:19 an John 20:22-23 are talking about the human mediation of forgiveness for post-baptismal sin. That is why Jesus' brother James teaches: "Confess your sins to each other and pray for one another, so that you may be healed (James 5:17)." Notice that James does NOT say, "Confess your sins to God" but rather "to each other." The spiritual and physical healing is to benefit from human mediation.
1. John 20:23 says we are to forgive those who sin against us. Retain means to hold onto their sin against you as you have not forgiven them.
2. Where does it say we are not to forgive others? No one can judge another if God has forgiven them or not.
Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
3. Only God knows those who will enter and who will not. When Christ breathed the Holy Spirit on the disciples it was to give them the power and authority to take the Gospel mesage out into the world in all truth as it is not we, but the Holy Spirit working through us. Yes, everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be forgiven their sins by Christ alone doing the forgiving.
4. We don't gains Salvation as it comes by that of God's free gift of grace through that of His Son Christ Jesus who is our faith as we believe in Him and repent of our sin, He is just to forgive our sin.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: James 5:16 tells us that we may confess our faults to one another for the purpose of praying for each other as in asking God to help another with their fault, weaknesses.
Matthew 16:19 means whatever you bind (forbid, declare to be improper or unlawful) on earth will have already been bound in heaven and what ever you loose (permit, declare lawful) on earth will have already been loosed in heaven. There words of authority given them through the indwelling Holy Spirit reflects God's will for His Church that is the body of Christ with Him being the head of the church. No one has any authority of himself as power and authority is given by God through His Holy Spirit that works in us and through us. There is nothing we can do of our self.
Prycejosh1987
Member
I think this refers to spiritual authority.