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King Saul - heaven or hell??

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FreeGrace

 
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For those who think that salvation can be lost for either/or loss of faith or a rebellious lifestyle, consider King Saul and what Scripture tells us about him.

First, a summary of the end of his life:
1 Chron 10:13-14

13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, 14 and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. NIV

v.13 tells us WHY King Saul died: because he was unfaithful to the Lord. To be "unfaithful" means lack of faith. Here is an example of "loss of faith", a criterion for some who think that salvation can be lost.

v.13 also tells us more: he consulted a medium for guidance, rather than the Lord, and the Lord had strictly forbidden His people from going to mediums. So this is an example of rebellion, another criterion for some who think that salvation can be lost.

So, we have in one man, King Saul, both criteria for how one may lose their salvation.

So, according to those who think that either loss of faith or rebellion (lifestyle) is how one can lose their salvation, King Saul should be in hell. And there are those from the Calvinist group who don't believe that King Saul was ever saved in the first place.

So, both Arminians and Calvinists agree that King Saul is in hell today.

OK. Let's examine where Saul went after physical death.
1 Sam 28:19
"The Lord will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." NIV

I don't believe that the dear departed ever have any part in seances. There is no evidence from Scripture that the dead can come back and communicate with living persons.

Yet, in 1 Sam 19 we have the account of King Saul consulting a medium. What we learn in this account is that when Samuel appeared, she screamed (cried with a loud voice). iow, seances and mediums are part of demonic activity, and the mode of communication is voice only. So when Samuel appeared, the medium was quite scared.

Further, the biblical account clearly says "Samuel appeared" and "Samuel said...". There is no way to argue that either King Saul or the medium only thought they were seeing Samuel. He was the real deal.

And Samuel told King Saul that he would die the next day and where he would be: with Samuel.

Some have argued (another forum) that Samuel only meant that Saul would join Samuel in the grave (ground). But how does that make any sense? Why would a believer as Samuel was only emphasize physical death and where the body would go? No believer, much less one of Samuel's stature, would ever just emphasize there the empty body would go.

In fact, Samuel was telling King Saul that he would be where Samuel was after death on the next day.

And we know from Scripture exactly how King Saul died.

So, today, King Saul is still with Samuel.
 

Jim Parker

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And we know from Scripture exactly how King Saul died.
Yes. He died in battle fighting the pagan enemies of Israel as was his job as king.
Is he with the Lord?
Check the phone book when you get there.
 

FreeGrace

 
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He was telling Saul that he would be dead the next day.
I addressed this kind of response in the OP. If that were true, then Samuel was totally ignoring life after death in eternity. That doesn't make any sense that a true man of God would ignore such an important issue as residence after physical death.

We all know where Samuel went when he died. And he told Saul that he would be with him the next day.

When he said "you will be WITH ME", there is only one rational way to understand what he meant. Saul would be with Samuel in Paradise.
 

JLB

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And Samuel told King Saul that he would die the next day and where he would be: with Samuel.
Yes. Amen.

That's what Samuel prophesied to Saul.

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JLB
 
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JLB

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The only question that remains is this: do you believe what Samuel told Saul?

Yes amen.

I believe what Samuel told Saul.

Do you believe what Jesus told the Church, because what Samuel told Saul has nothing to do with you, but what Jesus said to the Church has everything to do with you and I.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who do not remain connected in Him, as a branch is connected to the Vine, will be cast into the fire and burned.

In Him = Eternal life
Removed from Him = Eternal death.


JLB
 

Sinthesis

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Saul was not a Christian, and neither was Samuel. Jesus had not yet finished His work so there was no salvation or eternal life yet to give, just a promise. Samuel's prophecy was that Saul would be imprisoned with him in the grave. Thereafter they would wait for resurrection and judgement. The anticipation would be paradise to Samuel, but torture to Saul.
 

FreeGrace

 
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Yes amen.
I believe what Samuel told Saul.
So far, so good.

Do you believe what Jesus told the Church, because what Samuel told Saul has nothing to do with you, but what Jesus said to the Church has everything to do with you and I.
What Samuel told Saul has EVERYTHING to do with the FACT that even believers who are unfaithful will go to heaven, or as it was called in the OT, Paradise.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
I believe it. And you don't understand it.

Those who do not remain connected in Him, as a branch is connected to the Vine, will be cast into the fire and burned.
So your view is that an unfaithful believer in the OT still went to heaven, but in the NT, won't. Seriously?

In Him = Eternal life
Removed from Him = Eternal death.
Your theory has not been shown. What has been shown is simply wrongly dividing the word of truth. Your position has no concept for fellowship, so there is a very large amount of Scripture that simply cannot be understood, because of that.

So trying to explain what your position has no capacity for understanding is an exercise in futility.

In Him = Eternal life
Removed from Him = Eternal death.
We know from Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE. And that promise is FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION. Therefore, NO ONE can be removed from Him. But because your position has no capacity to accept fellowship, a clear understanding of John 15:6 is impossible in your position.

All the verses in your position have to have a very ample amount of assumption added in order to conclude what is concluded.

There are no verses that plainly and directly SAY that salvation can be lost, or that a believer can end up in the lake of fire.

What is required is ample assumption that some verses mean that. But there are NO verses that SAY that.
 

Jim Parker

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When he said "you will be WITH ME", there is only one rational way to understand what he meant. Saul would be with Samuel in Paradise.
False.
What you believe is not necessarily the "only one rational way to understand" the meaning of Samuel's statement.
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FreeGrace

 
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Saul was not a Christian, and neither was Samuel. Jesus had not yet finished His work so there was no salvation or eternal life yet to give, just a promise.
Then the teaching of Paradise is just false, eh? Was Jesus just kidding one of the robbers hanging with Him on crosses when He said this:
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Or did Paradise just suddenly poof into existence when Jesus descended to it?

Where do you think all the saved believers went after death in the OT, if there was no salvation or eternal life?

Why did Jesus say this to Sadducees?
Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" NIV

So where would all these OT believers be if there was no salvation?

Samuel's prophecy was that Saul would be imprisoned with him in the grave.
I've already addressed this. No believer, esp a major prophet of God, would ever put any emphasis on a body in the ground after death. In fact, Samuel said nothing about being "imprisoned", so why all the creative imagination?

He simply told Saul that he would join him the next day, along with his sons.

So, the question was where was Samuel after death. He was ceertainly somewhere, and he came from somewhere when he showed up at the seance. And he was going back to where he came from. So an emphasis on his DEAD BODY being in the ground is simply way off the mark. No believer would emphasize that.

Thereafter they would wait for resurrection and judgement. The anticipation would be paradise to Samuel, but torture to Saul.
That's quite a creative imagination. Why would Samuel be "anticipating" paradise? Where was he until then? Just lying around in the ground?

Your views are not at all in line with orthodox Christianity. Where do they come from?
 

FreeGrace

 
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I said this:
"So this means you're not going to believe what Samuel told Saul?"
I have no idea how you came to such a conclusion.
How could anyone come to any other reasonable, rational conclusion?

Maybe a reading of the passage might help:
1 Sam 28:16-19
Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors — to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." NIV

I believe what Samuel told Saul. That Saul would join Samuel the next day. There is nothing else to believe.

The notion that Samuel was only referring to the grave is silly. No believer would ever consider the grave as their "last stop". All OT believers knew they would be in paradise, or Abraham's bosom, which we know from Jesus' account of a rich man and a poor man named Lazarus that paradise was very pleasant, in contrast to where the rich man was, in torments. He was awaiting the Judgement when he would be cast into the lake of fire, while Lazarus was waiting for the Messiah to come and take him to heaven.
 

WIP

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I'm closing this thread until I have a chance to review it. Skimming over it I am seeing too many violations of the forum rules and possibly ToS to allow it continue.
 

WIP

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I have deleted or edited a number of posts for various reasons such as trolling, rudeness, and sarcasm. I did not include messages to explain each move. I hope we are all adult enough to know why the editing was done. There's no reason for not responding to each other with respect and kindness. Disagreeing does not have to be combative. Remember, the goal is not to put down the other but to build each other up.
 

WIP

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I would like thoughts on the significance of verses 13 through 15 in 1 Samuel 28. Angels come from heaven but I can't recall anywhere in Scripture where it describes an angel coming up out of the earth.

And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” NKJV
 

chessman

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Acts 12:15-16 (LEB) But they said to her, “You are out of your mind!” But she kept insisting it was so. And they kept saying, “It is his angel!” But Peter was continuing to knock, and when they opened the door they saw him and were astonished.
When Peter was released from prison, they thought it was his angel showing up.
 

smaller

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It would seem more than problematic to take any kind of legitimate positions from a witch, a seance, talking to the dead and someone from whom the Spirit of the Lord had departed. imho, of course.

If anything is there it would be lessons from the "other side" of the ledgers. Of the not so good kind.
 

FreeGrace

 
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I would like thoughts on the significance of verses 13 through 15 in 1 Samuel 28. Angels come from heaven but I can't recall anywhere in Scripture where it describes an angel coming up out of the earth.

And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” NKJV
The last verse in this segment indicates that it was Samuel. And the rest of the context shows that Samuel and Saul conversed.

Were you thinking that what appeared to Saul was an angel?
 

Sinthesis

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The term 'angel' is not limited to a class of angelic beings. Any messenger can be considered an angel regardless of their form.

Slightly out of context, but the idea is there:
1Sa 2:6 - The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
The Saul/Witch/Samuel episode is a twisted parallel to that of Balak/Balaam/God. Somebody in crisis trying to appeal to God in the wrong way.
 

JohnDB

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Some have argued (another forum) that Samuel only meant that Saul would join Samuel in the grave (ground). But how does that make any sense? Why would a believer as Samuel was only emphasize physical death and where the body would go? No believer, much less one of Samuel's stature, would ever just emphasize there the empty body would go.
Sheol was the name of the"abode of the dead" which is often referred to as "the grave".
This is ancient Hebrew mythology...not Theology. IOW unrevealed theology.
Legacy was considered to be how a person lived forever amongst the living (at that time)

Sheol was similar to the Greek Hades...but different at the same time.

Sheol was divided into two parts. One was full of their fathers and restful. The other area was not restful but tumultuous.
The theology of a reward and afterlife wasn't known till Daniel wrote his book of prophecy.

And the secret things of God belong to the Lord...
 
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