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King Saul - heaven or hell??

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Jim Parker

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The whole issue of salvation is BASED on the after life.
No. It is not.

The whole issue of salvation is based on the incarnation of the Logos, His death, His resurrection, His ascension to the throne of the Father having received all authority in heaven and on earth and the sending of the Holy Spirit thereby establishing the Kingdom of God which is here right now in the Church and will come in fullness at Christ's return.

It's not about any "after life". That's what the pagans were concerned with, the life "after" this one in which they escaped this body and this world with all it's ills.

Salvation is about NEW life in Christ.
Those who believe have already entered into the new life in Christ right here, right now; not in the sweet by-and-by.

iakov the fool
 

FreeGrace

 
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I said this:
"Are you familiar with how many "compartments" there are in Sheol? And which compartment Samuel went to? And which compartment Saul went to?

Again, are you familiar with the various compartments in Sheol?"
Please enlighten us, with scripture.
Then I'll have to take this response as "I don't have a clue". Is that correct? If so, just say so. If familiar with the various compartments, then my question was simple: explain what IS understood about compartments in Sheol.

Then I said this:
"In the account of a rich man and a poor man named Lazarus, in which Lazarus died first, would it be said that the rich man was WITH Lazarus when he died afterward?"
Yes. Both dead in Sheol awaiting resurrection.
In the account by Jesus, it was clear that Lazarus and the rich man were NOT in the same compartment. But I'll wait for your response regarding the compartments before I'll explain them. I do want to know what you understand before I show Scripture. From earlier posts, I got the impression that you're not familiar with the various compartments.

One likely comforted in anticipation of resurrectionand judgment because of his faith in God, the other likely tormented in anticipation of resurrection and judgement.
Even a cursory reading shows that they were not together.

Until Jesus finished His redemptive work, nobody was saved in the way that salvation for all was made possible by Christ's work. They were simply held captive until they would be freed by Christ.
How were they saved?

This is why Samuel and Saul can't be used to promote OSAS.
You've given no explanation as to your claim.

They couldn't be saved until Jesus' resurrection defeated death.
This statement doesn't show that they weren't saved until Jesus' resurrection.

... And wasn't Saul a rich man?
So? What are you trying to prove? That the account of Jesus was a reference to King Saul??
 

FreeGrace

 
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OK.
If you say so.
But, you still have not answered my question; you're still dodging and playing games instead of being forthright with a simple yes or no answer.
So what? Who cares? It don't mean nuthin'.
Because I knew that already, there was no need to respond to the condescending question.
 

FreeGrace

 
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I asked this:
"Are you familiar with how many "compartments" there are in Sheol?"
I like the music department.
Got my eye on a Les Paul.
You charged me with playing games. I asked a straightforward question about Sheol, and all I get is a childish response. Game playing.

But your response shows clearly how unfamiliar your position is regarding Sheol.
 

Jim Parker

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I asked this:
"Are you familiar with how many "compartments" there are in Sheol?"

You charged me with playing games. I asked a straightforward question about Sheol, and all I get is a childish response. Game playing.

But your response shows clearly how unfamiliar your position is regarding Sheol.
Note to self: Freebie has noooo sense of humor and expects to be taken seriously........
 

FreeGrace

 
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I said this:
"The whole issue of salvation is BASED on the after life."
No. It is not.
Care to explain??

Salvation is based being saved, delivered, or rescued from something. If there is no afterlife, there is NOTHING to be saved from.

The whole issue of salvation is based on the incarnation of the Logos, His death, His resurrection, His ascension to the throne of the Father having received all authority in heaven and on earth and the sending of the Holy Spirit thereby establishing the Kingdom of God which is here right now in the Church and will come in fullness at Christ's return.
This misses the whole point of WHY the incarnation of the Logos. Totally.

It's not about any "after life". That's what the pagans were concerned with, the life "after" this one in which they escaped this body and this world with all it's ills.
It seems your position is not even familiar with judgment and the lake of fire then.

Salvation is about NEW life in Christ.
That's included, sure, but has NOTHING to do with what SALVATION means.

Those who believe have already entered into the new life in Christ right here, right now; not in the sweet by-and-by.
iakov the fool
So then, salvation is for the here and now. But if there is no after life, then what does it matter ultimately?
 

FreeGrace

 
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I asked this:
"Are you familiar with how many "compartments" there are in Sheol?"

You charged me with playing games. I asked a straightforward question about Sheol, and all I get is a childish response. Game playing.

But your response shows clearly how unfamiliar your position is regarding Sheol.
Note to self: Freebie has noooo sense of humor and expects to be taken seriously........
You've charged me with dodging. What would one call your response here?

Why no explanation of your position on sheol and its compartments?
 

Jim Parker

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Care to explain??
I already did.
Salvation is based being saved, delivered, or rescued from something. If there is no afterlife, there is NOTHING to be saved from.
I guess that depends on what you mean by "afterlife."
How do you define it?
Everyone will be raised from the grave immortal and imperishable. (1 Cor 15)
Everyone will spend eternity either united with God in Christ (saved and experiencing eternal life) or separated from God, outside of Christ. (not saved and experiencing 2nd death)
This misses the whole point of WHY the incarnation of the Logos. Totally.
Really?
Enlighten me. Cur deus homo?
It seems your position is not even familiar with judgment and the lake of fire then.
You obviously have no concept of the difference between the pagan concept of an "afterlife" and the Christian belief in eternal life.
The judgement and the lake of fire are different topics which you are conflating and confusing. (WHich is why you don't make any sense. :))
That's included, sure, but has NOTHING to do with what SALVATION means.
The new life in Christ has nothing to do with the meaning of salvation, you say???
Please define what you think salvation is.
So then, salvation is for the here and now. But if there is no after life, then what does it matter ultimately?
I didn't say that.
And I have no idea how you could possible come to that conclusion.
Again, you have managed to totally misunderstand simple English sentences.
That's why I asked if English was a second language for you.
You do that on a very regular basis and imagine people say things that they never said.
 

Sinthesis

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I said this:
"Are you familiar with how many "compartments" there are in Sheol? And which compartment Samuel went to? And which compartment Saul went to?

Again, are you familiar with the various compartments in Sheol?"

Then I'll have to take this response as "I don't have a clue". Is that correct? If so, just say so. If familiar with the various compartments, then my question was simple: explain what IS understood about compartments in Sheol.

Then I said this:
"In the account of a rich man and a poor man named Lazarus, in which Lazarus died first, would it be said that the rich man was WITH Lazarus when he died afterward?"

In the account by Jesus, it was clear that Lazarus and the rich man were NOT in the same compartment. But I'll wait for your response regarding the compartments before I'll explain them. I do want to know what you understand before I show Scripture. From earlier posts, I got the impression that you're not familiar with the various compartments.
Compartments? I have no clue what you're talking about. Please enlighten us, with scripture.



 

Sinthesis

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Even a cursory reading shows that they were not together.
Both were dead in Sheol awaiting resurrection.
How were they saved?
They could only be saved by Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:18 - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​
You've given no explanation as to your claim.
Sure I did. They couldn't be saved until Jesus' resurrection defeated death, so their condition in Sheol wasn't their salvation.
This statement doesn't show that they weren't saved until Jesus' resurrection.
This verse does:
Col 1:18 - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​
So? What are you trying to prove? That the account of Jesus was a reference to King Saul??
Mat 19:23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.​
 

JohnDB

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Moderator hat on:
Let's try to cut down on some of the personal chatter. It's not helping defend your arguments and makes things look like petty squabbling.


Not directed at anyone in particular. Just trying to keep the peace.
 

FreeGrace

 
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I guess that depends on what you mean by "afterlife."
How do you define it?
The life after one's physical death.

Everyone will be raised from the grave immortal and imperishable. (1 Cor 15)
Everyone will spend eternity either united with God in Christ (saved and experiencing eternal life) or separated from God, outside of Christ. (not saved and experiencing 2nd death)
Yet your view is that prior to Daniel's writings, no one was aware of an afterlife.

I said this:
"This misses the whole point of WHY the incarnation of the Logos. Totally."
Really?
Enlighten me. Cur deus homo?
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. That means He came to save. Nothing in your description even mentioned that.

You obviously have no concept of the difference between the pagan concept of an "afterlife" and the Christian belief in eternal life.
Please explain why that would matter. Why would the pagan concept of ANYTHING matter in regards to Scripture?

I said this:
"It seems your position is not even familiar with judgment and the lake of fire then."
The judgement and the lake of fire are different topics which you are conflating and confusing. (WHich is why you don't make any sense. :))
It seems clear the problem is on your side.

Heb 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment NIV

OK, that establishes that everyone WILL face judgment, let's see what this judgment is, and for whom:

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. NIV The "we" refer to believers, of course.

2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. NIV The "unrighteous" refers to unbelievers, of course.

And, finally, to connect judgment with the lake of fire:
Rev 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. NIV

Any question?

The new life in Christ has nothing to do with the meaning of salvation, you say???
Sure, it's a part of what salvation is, but not all of it, as your explanation suggested.

Please define what you think salvation is.
With pleasure.

Past tense: we are saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
Present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification
Future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification

Any questions?

I said this:
"So then, salvation is for the here and now. But if there is no after life, then what does it matter ultimately?"
I didn't say that.
And I have no idea how you could possible come to that conclusion.
Only from your posts where you explained that before the writing of Daniel, no one was aware of an afterlife. That would mean that no one was saved before Daniel, since they wouldn't have even known they needed salvation.

Again, you have managed to totally misunderstand simple English sentences.
Or, your so-called "simple English sentences" weren't all that clear.

If the biblical concept of afterlife wasn't known until the writings of Daniel, then there would have been no concept of needing salvation.
 

FreeGrace

 
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Compartments? I have no clue what you're talking about. Please enlighten us, with scripture.
Sure.

Before Christ died and visited Sheol (Eph 4:9,10) to bring all saved people with Him to the Father, in the 3rd heaven (2 Cor 12:2), the saved people went to "Paradise" (Luke 23:43) or "Abraham's Bosom" (Luke 16:22). Unbelievers went to "torments" (Luke 16:23). In Jesus' account of a rich man and Lazarus, one was in Paradise and the other was in torments, yet they could see each other, but could not get to one another, because of a "great gulf" between them. Both were in Sheol, but in separate compartments.

The third compartment is for certain fallen angels who "left their proper abode" and sinned. Many scholars believe these angels were involved in the account of Genesis 6. However, this verse describes these angels:
Jude 6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. NIV

Peter said this about them:
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment NIV

The Greek word for "hell" here is "tartarus".
 

FreeGrace

 
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Both were dead in Sheol awaiting resurrection.
Yes. In different compartments. Lazarus was in "Abraham's Bosom" and the rich man was in "torments". They could see each other but could not get to each other.

Sure I did. They couldn't be saved until Jesus' resurrection defeated death, so their condition in Sheol wasn't their salvation.
The FACT that those in Abraham's Bosom or Paradise were taken to heaven means they WERE saved and waiting for Christ's resurrection.

I said this:
"This statement doesn't show that they weren't saved until Jesus' resurrection."
This verse does:
Col 1:18 - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​
How does this verse show that?? Jesus was clear to one of the robbers hanging on a cross next to Him when he told him "today you will be with Me in Paradise". Because the robber recognized that Jesus was the Son of God, he WAS saved, and went to Paradise, where all OT believers went, waiting for Christ to come and take them to the 3rd heaven.

Mat 19:23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Neither does this verse.
 

Kenja824

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The way I see things, there is a place "Sheol" that has different sections to it. Some are tormented and some are not. Paradise is one of those places. When Jesus died on the cross, He told one of the thieves that he would be with Him before the sun has set in paradise. Yet Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until after he rose from the dead three days later. So Paradise is definitely in Sheol and not in heaven.

If I had a friend over and he was in the living room watching TV and I was in the kitchen and his wife called me (maybe his cell phone doesnt work) and she asked me if he was with me, I would say "yes. He was over here with me." Even though we were in different sections of the house. I tend to wonder if this could be the same thing with Saul and Samuel. When Samuel said "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me", could this not be "Sheol" in general and not be specific to which section of Sheol? He never specifies that Saul will be in Paradise with him. So in a sense, I do see this as just telling him he would be dying tomorrow because everyone went to Sheol then and Sheol is mentioned several times in the Bible without specifying the different sections like Paradise.

Then of course, once Jesus did die and rise from the dead. He ascended to Heaven and I believe at this point in a sense, opened the Gates to Heaven. Now when people die, they either go to Sheol to await judgment day or if they are right with God, to Heaven. At least until Jesus comes back and reigns on Earth for a thousand years and then after that we are given a New Earth where we will spend eternity.
 

JLB

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The way I see things, there is a place "Sheol" that has different sections to it. Some are tormented and some are not. Paradise is one of those places. When Jesus died on the cross, He told one of the thieves that he would be with Him before the sun has set in paradise. Yet Jesus did not ascend to Heaven until after he rose from the dead three days later. So Paradise is definitely in Sheol and not in heaven.

If I had a friend over and he was in the living room watching TV and I was in the kitchen and his wife called me (maybe his cell phone doesnt work) and she asked me if he was with me, I would say "yes. He was over here with me." Even though we were in different sections of the house. I tend to wonder if this could be the same thing with Saul and Samuel. When Samuel said "Tomorrow you and your sons will be with me", could this not be "Sheol" in general and not be specific to which section of Sheol? He never specifies that Saul will be in Paradise with him. So in a sense, I do see this as just telling him he would be dying tomorrow because everyone went to Sheol then and Sheol is mentioned several times in the Bible without specifying the different sections like Paradise.

Then of course, once Jesus did die and rise from the dead. He ascended to Heaven and I believe at this point in a sense, opened the Gates to Heaven. Now when people die, they either go to Sheol to await judgment day or if they are right with God, to Heaven. At least until Jesus comes back and reigns on Earth for a thousand years and then after that we are given a New Earth where we will spend eternity.

And what about Jesus promise to the thief on the cross... This day you will be with Me in Paradise.

The whole idea of being “with Me” is to convey that the person would join me where I am.

Samuel was saying to Saul that he and his sons would join him where he was.


JLB
 
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