What's new
  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Guest Come and celebrate the birth of Christ by having some ho, ho, ho, holiday fun at the second annual it's the most wonderful time of the year Christmas celebration. Enter Here
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

Bible Study "Lectio Divina"... "praying the Scriptures&qu

C

CatholicXian

Guest
“Lectio Divina†is the practice of “praying the Scriptures†("divine reading"). It is a very popular monastic tradition in the Catholic Church, but is gaining momentum among the laity in recent times. There are all sorts of different methods for doing so, but the general point to read through Scripture slowly and meditatively, and letting the inspired words fill your soul, that you might come to a better understanding of the Scriptures through grace.

Rather than merely reading, or doing most of the "talking" ourselves in prayer, Lectio Divina is mostly about "listening" and being attentive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

All in all, I'm finding it to be a useful tool in prayer and in deepening my relationship with Christ.

I was curious as to whether or not anyone else has attempted such a practice and if they also found it to be fruitful in their discovery of the Scriptures?

In case anyone was interested in starting up the practice the basic format is as follows:

1) Lectio-- reading with our hearts, so to speak. Not reading like we'd read a book or newspaper, but a reverential reading in silence, listening for the promptings of the Holy Spirit pulling our hearts.

2) Meditation. When we come across a word or passage that strikes us in a particular way, we should stop reading and ponder the word or passage... allowing the Word of God to dwell in us and become a part of our thoughts and indeed our very selves.

3) Oratio--prayer, as dialogue with God. In this we should seek to allow ourselves to be changed by God, and to be conformed to His will. To allow that which we have meditated upon to enter our hearts.

4) Contemplation. Finally, we ought to rest in the peace of God. Allowing that which we have meditated upon to rest in our hearts, softening it, and inclining us to do God's will. A quiet practice of silence, simply resting in prayer with the One who loves us.
 
A

amal95

Guest
ooh, I've heard of this before, but haven't tried it with my reading of scripture.

I'll have to try it, esp. since I'm a fast reader, which then makes me sometimes rush through, so this is great cause it's a way to make me slow down and contemplate scripture. I like that this method stresses the importance of listening when reading scripture.
 

Free

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
Messages
13,677
Gender
Male
I have tried it but need to do it some more. I have a hard time staying focused.
 
C

CatholicXian

Guest
I agree it can be a rough start, it was for me as well... I wasn't used to sitting down for a long time and staying completely focused on one thing. But once I got started, it's become something that I look forward to and have found to be very relaxing and enlightened.
 

guibox

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
Re: "Lectio Divina"... "praying the Scripture

CatholicXian said:
There are all sorts of different methods for doing so, but the general point to read through Scripture slowly and meditatively, and letting the inspired words fill your soul, that you might come to a better understanding of the Scriptures through grace.

2) Meditation. When we come across a word or passage that strikes us in a particular way, we should stop reading and ponder the word or passage... allowing the Word of God to dwell in us and become a part of our thoughts and indeed our very selves.
That's interesting. I though only the church could interpret scripture and not any mere mortal who could come away with dissenting beliefs other than what the Holy Catholic Church has interpreted for the people.

Sounds like a dangerous and heretical method to me (as far as the Catholic Church is concerned)

As for the average, non-Papal worshipping Christian, this sounds like a very good method of deepening your walk with Christ.
 
C

CatholicXian

Guest
Re: "Lectio Divina"... "praying the Scripture

guibox said:
CatholicXian said:
There are all sorts of different methods for doing so, but the general point to read through Scripture slowly and meditatively, and letting the inspired words fill your soul, that you might come to a better understanding of the Scriptures through grace.

2) Meditation. When we come across a word or passage that strikes us in a particular way, we should stop reading and ponder the word or passage... allowing the Word of God to dwell in us and become a part of our thoughts and indeed our very selves.
That's interesting. I though only the church could interpret scripture and not any mere mortal who could come away with dissenting beliefs other than what the Holy Catholic Church has interpreted for the people.

Sounds like a dangerous and heretical method to me (as far as the Catholic Church is concerned)

As for the average, non-Papal worshipping Christian, this sounds like a very good method of deepening your walk with Christ.
No need for spite nor sarcasm. The Church encourages "Lectio Divina"...


CCC 1177. The hymns and litanies of the Liturgy of the Hours integrate the prayer of the psalms into the age of the Church, expressing the symbolism of the time of day, the liturgical season, or the feast being celebrated. Moreover, the reading from the Word of God at each Hour (with the subsequent responses or troparia) and readings from the Fathers and spiritual masters at certain Hours, reveal more deeply the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, assist in understanding the psalms, and prepare for silent prayer. The lectio divina, where the Word of God is so read and meditated that it becomes prayer, is thus rooted in the liturgical celebration.

CCC 2708. Meditation engages thought, imagination, emotion, and desire. This mobilization of faculties is necessary in order to deepen our convictions of faith, prompt the conversion of our heart, and strengthen our will to follow Christ. Christian prayer tries above all to meditate on the mysteries of Christ, as in lectio divina or the rosary. This form of prayerful reflection is of great value, but Christian prayer should go further: to the knowledge of the love of the Lord Jesus, to union with him.


As regards the interpretation of Scripture... from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC 109. In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.


CCC 110. In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."

CCC 111. But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."
The Vatican Council II indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.

CCC 112. 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.
The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, dosed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.

CCC 113. 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture ("... according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").

CCC 114. 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith. By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

The senses of Scripture
CCC 115. According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

CCC 116. The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."

CCC 117. The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.

CCC 118. A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:
The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith; The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.

CCC 119. "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."



In addition, I'd also mention lastly, that, in all my reading of the Bible I've never come across something that raised concerns about the Catholic Church.
 
O

Orthodox Christian

Guest
Re: "Lectio Divina"... "praying the Scripture

guibox said:
CatholicXian said:
There are all sorts of different methods for doing so, but the general point to read through Scripture slowly and meditatively, and letting the inspired words fill your soul, that you might come to a better understanding of the Scriptures through grace.

2) Meditation. When we come across a word or passage that strikes us in a particular way, we should stop reading and ponder the word or passage... allowing the Word of God to dwell in us and become a part of our thoughts and indeed our very selves.
That's interesting. I though only the church could interpret scripture and not any mere mortal who could come away with dissenting beliefs other than what the Holy Catholic Church has interpreted for the people.

Sounds like a dangerous and heretical method to me (as far as the Catholic Church is concerned)

As for the average, non-Papal worshipping Christian, this sounds like a very good method of deepening your walk with Christ.
Sarcasm- this word comes from a complex Greek term that means "to tear the flesh."
Bite and devour- and stick to the SDA playbook.

Pathetic.
 
O

Orthodox Christian

Guest
Free said:
I have tried it but need to do it some more. I have a hard time staying focused.
I know exactly what you mean- we in the modern Western world are so predisposed to read and, at most, engage in critical thinking. Reflection, on the other hand, is nearly a lost art. I believe that Psalm 119 makes it clear that we are to reflect on the words of scripture, to 'chew' on them, to ruminate on the precepts.

There is a very marked difference between seeking personal illumination from the scripture and creating new doctrine. There are nuances in the scriptures that speak to us in what the Greeks referred to as Chairos time- God's opportune time.

Jesus said that man does not live by bread alone, but by every rhema that comes from God. Rhema is the now word, the Spirit-breathed word. This word must line up with the canon of scripture, of course.

One can only receive rhema through contemplation.
 

guibox

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
Re: "Lectio Divina"... "praying the Scripture

Orthodox Christian said:
Sarcasm- this word comes from a complex Greek term that means "to tear the flesh."
Bite and devour- and stick to the SDA playbook.

Pathetic.
Oi! Lighten up! :o

OC, you would be the first to admit that the most rabid, anti-Catholics on this forum are NOT the Adventists but the rest of the evangelicals here.

For your information, I am much more tolerant and accepting of Catholicism on this forum then most of the others who enjoy bashing it.
I grew up French Catholic until I was 13 and most of my family is Catholic.

I have more respect for Catholicism and Orthodox Christians then most Protestants who claim to be Sola Scriptura but follow their own man made traditions like the Pharisees or the very Catholic teaching they rail against.

I retract my sarcasm in light of sensitivity... ;-)
 

Free

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
Messages
13,677
Gender
Male
Orthodox said:
I know exactly what you mean- we in the modern Western world are so predisposed to read and, at most, engage in critical thinking. Reflection, on the other hand, is nearly a lost art.
And I know exactly what you mean, and I certainly agree. We just don't know how to reflect, we are far too busy this results in too much noise in the soul.

Orthodox said:
There is a very marked difference between seeking personal illumination from the scripture and creating new doctrine. There are nuances in the scriptures that speak to us in what the Greeks referred to as Chairos time- God's opportune time.
Yes, I am familiar with the term Chairos time, such as it is used in Ecclesiastes and the Christian calender. We in Western society and Evangelical Christianity need to learn how to live in Chairos time. I have an amazing prof (of history and Christian spirituality) and he walks in Chairos time. He tells amazing stories of things that happen to him in everyday life...it's just amazing.

It makes me sad that I never grew up with the knowledge of the vast Christian spiritual heritage and have only learned about it in the last couple of years. And it makes it difficult to start. Spiritual disciplines are something I know I need to do, something I know that God is calling me to do, but something that I just don't make the time for; the spirit is certainly willing but the flesh is terribly weak.

I would love to go to a monastery for a week or two to get out of the world and into God. Someday...
 
C

cj

Guest
Free said:
Orthodox said:
I know exactly what you mean- we in the modern Western world are so predisposed to read and, at most, engage in critical thinking. Reflection, on the other hand, is nearly a lost art.
And I know exactly what you mean, and I certainly agree. We just don't know how to reflect, we are far too busy this results in too much noise in the soul.

Orthodox said:
There is a very marked difference between seeking personal illumination from the scripture and creating new doctrine. There are nuances in the scriptures that speak to us in what the Greeks referred to as Chairos time- God's opportune time.
Yes, I am familiar with the term Chairos time, such as it is used in Ecclesiastes and the Christian calender. We in Western society and Evangelical Christianity need to learn how to live in Chairos time. I have an amazing prof (of history and Christian spirituality) and he walks in Chairos time. He tells amazing stories of things that happen to him in everyday life...it's just amazing.

It makes me sad that I never grew up with the knowledge of the vast Christian spiritual heritage and have only learned about it in the last couple of years. And it makes it difficult to start. Spiritual disciplines are something I know I need to do, something I know that God is calling me to do, but something that I just don't make the time for; the spirit is certainly willing but the flesh is terribly weak.

I would love to go to a monastery for a week or two to get out of the world and into God. Someday...
Actually, going to a monastery is an expression of the weak flesh.


Why not just retreat ( or actually, Paul calls it a bold move, as in "Come forward boldly to the throne of grace") into your God-given and approved regenerated spirit, Free.

A monastery is nothing, God gave no one a monastery at rebirth,.... but He has given every believer a new spirit.


And this is where one can truly pray-read the word and in this receive revelation.


Pray-reading is as old as the days.


Lets read what Paul had to say to the saints,....

"Therefore since we have such hope, we use much boldness, and are not like Moses, who put a veil on his face so that the sons of Israel would not gaze at the end of that which was being done away with.

But their thoughts were hardened; for until the present day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, it not being unveiled to them that the veil is being done away with in Christ.

Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart;

But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same eimage from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit."



"But....... whenever...... their heart turns to the Lord,....... the veil is taken away.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and....... where..... the Spirit of the Lord is,...... there is freedom."



Believers can read the word, and even-pray-read the word,...... but if their hearts are not turned to the Lord, it is meaningless, as they are still veiled.


And what does it mean to "turn" one's heart to the Lord?

1 Timothy  1 : 5, "But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and out of a good cconscience and out of unfeigned faith;"

A "turned" heart is a pure heart, a single heart without mixture, a heart that seeks only the Lord and takes the Lord as the unique goal. A good conscience is a conscience without offense (Acts 24:16). Unfeigned faith, related to the faith mentioned in v. 4, is faith without pretense or hypocrisy, faith that purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and operates through love (Gal. 5:6). In the trend of the church's decline and in dealing with the different teachings, all these attributes are required for us to have a pure, true, and genuine love.

A "turned" heart is one that is motivated by genuine love, divine love.


To pray-read the word out of form, tradition, or some type of doctrine is not to do so out of a turned heart, but out of self-effort, and God hates it as He hates all thongs that come out of Babylon.



But, if one's heart is turned to the Lord and the veil is thus taken away (the veil is in fact the turned away heart), then lets read what Paul tells us awaits this saint,....

Ephesian 1: 17-23,

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, ccording to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this cage but also in that which is to come; And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all."


And even more to the point.....

Ephesian 2:18-22,

"For through Him we both have access in bone Spirit unto the Father.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone; In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit."

IN WHOM YOU (MEANING ALL OF US) ARE BEING BUILT UP TOGETHER INTO>>>>>>>>>> A DWELLING PLACE OF GOD IN SPIRIT"


And what is this dwelling place of God in spirit????


Isaiah  25 : 7

"And on...... this mountain........ He will swallow up The covering that covers up all the peoples, Even the veil that veils all the nations."


Can anyone tell us what "THIS MOUNTAIN" is called?


And why do I ask?

Because this "mountain" on which the covering that covers up, even the veil that veils, will be swallowed up, is essentially one and the same as, "...... is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit."


No need to go to a monastery, when we have a God-given mountain.


In love,

cj
 
O

Orthodox Christian

Guest
cj said:
Free said:
Orthodox said:
I know exactly what you mean- we in the modern Western world are so predisposed to read and, at most, engage in critical thinking. Reflection, on the other hand, is nearly a lost art.
And I know exactly what you mean, and I certainly agree. We just don't know how to reflect, we are far too busy this results in too much noise in the soul.

Orthodox said:
There is a very marked difference between seeking personal illumination from the scripture and creating new doctrine. There are nuances in the scriptures that speak to us in what the Greeks referred to as Chairos time- God's opportune time.
Yes, I am familiar with the term Chairos time, such as it is used in Ecclesiastes and the Christian calender. We in Western society and Evangelical Christianity need to learn how to live in Chairos time. I have an amazing prof (of history and Christian spirituality) and he walks in Chairos time. He tells amazing stories of things that happen to him in everyday life...it's just amazing.

It makes me sad that I never grew up with the knowledge of the vast Christian spiritual heritage and have only learned about it in the last couple of years. And it makes it difficult to start. Spiritual disciplines are something I know I need to do, something I know that God is calling me to do, but something that I just don't make the time for; the spirit is certainly willing but the flesh is terribly weak.

I would love to go to a monastery for a week or two to get out of the world and into God. Someday...
Actually, going to a monastery is an expression of the weak flesh.


Why not just retreat ( or actually, Paul calls it a bold move, as in "Come forward boldly to the throne of grace") into your God-given and approved regenerated spirit, Free.

A monastery is nothing, God gave no one a monastery at rebirth,.... but He has given every believer a new spirit.


And this is where one can truly pray-read the word and in this receive revelation.


Pray-reading is as old as the days.


Lets read what Paul had to say to the saints,....

"Therefore since we have such hope, we use much boldness, and are not like Moses, who put a veil on his face so that the sons of Israel would not gaze at the end of that which was being done away with.

But their thoughts were hardened; for until the present day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant, it not being unveiled to them that the veil is being done away with in Christ.

Indeed unto this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart;

But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same eimage from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit."



"But....... whenever...... their heart turns to the Lord,....... the veil is taken away.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and....... where..... the Spirit of the Lord is,...... there is freedom."



Believers can read the word, and even-pray-read the word,...... but if their hearts are not turned to the Lord, it is meaningless, as they are still veiled.


And what does it mean to "turn" one's heart to the Lord?

1 Timothy  1 : 5, "But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and out of a good cconscience and out of unfeigned faith;"

A "turned" heart is a pure heart, a single heart without mixture, a heart that seeks only the Lord and takes the Lord as the unique goal. A good conscience is a conscience without offense (Acts 24:16). Unfeigned faith, related to the faith mentioned in v. 4, is faith without pretense or hypocrisy, faith that purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and operates through love (Gal. 5:6). In the trend of the church's decline and in dealing with the different teachings, all these attributes are required for us to have a pure, true, and genuine love.

A "turned" heart is one that is motivated by genuine love, divine love.


To pray-read the word out of form, tradition, or some type of doctrine is not to do so out of a turned heart, but out of self-effort, and God hates it as He hates all thongs that come out of Babylon.



But, if one's heart is turned to the Lord and the veil is thus taken away (the veil is in fact the turned away heart), then lets read what Paul tells us awaits this saint,....

Ephesian 1: 17-23,

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him, the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, ccording to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this cage but also in that which is to come; And He subjected all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His Body, the fullness of the One who fills all in all."


And even more to the point.....

Ephesian 2:18-22,

"For through Him we both have access in bone Spirit unto the Father.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone; In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit."

IN WHOM YOU (MEANING ALL OF US) ARE BEING BUILT UP TOGETHER INTO>>>>>>>>>> A DWELLING PLACE OF GOD IN SPIRIT"


And what is this dwelling place of God in spirit????


Isaiah  25 : 7

"And on...... this mountain........ He will swallow up The covering that covers up all the peoples, Even the veil that veils all the nations."


Can anyone tell us what "THIS MOUNTAIN" is called?


And why do I ask?

Because this "mountain" on which the covering that covers up, even the veil that veils, will be swallowed up, is essentially one and the same as, "...... is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit."


No need to go to a monastery, when we have a God-given mountain.


In love,

cj
I sincerely doubt that you have ever been to a monastery, CJ, so I expect and assume that you are speaking out of prejudice and ignorance.
Prove me wrong....




From my very earliest days as an adult Christian, I have taken times of retreat with God. I have done so alone and together with others.

I have also spent time at a monastery, and it was incomparable. To spend time with people whose entire lives are dedicated solely to prayer and to service, in a space reserved for same, is truly heavenly.

Clearly, in the Old Covenant, God set apart priests and Levites, and of these, there were those who were set apart to minister in the Temple, thos set apart to minister in music and in prayer. Prophetic Scripture states clearly that even in the New Covenant, He "would take some for priests and Levites."

Finally, your exegesis regarding the Temple and the mountain is off the mark completely. The Temple of which Paul and Peter spoke of is the ekklesia, it is collective, and it is spoken of without reference to time. The mountain is referenced in Hebrews also, and it is the Church.

Neither of these have anything to do with prayer retreats,; neither advocate for or against when, where, and how.
 
O

Orthodox Christian

Guest
Free said:
Orthodox said:
I know exactly what you mean- we in the modern Western world are so predisposed to read and, at most, engage in critical thinking. Reflection, on the other hand, is nearly a lost art.
And I know exactly what you mean, and I certainly agree. We just don't know how to reflect, we are far too busy this results in too much noise in the soul.

Orthodox said:
There is a very marked difference between seeking personal illumination from the scripture and creating new doctrine. There are nuances in the scriptures that speak to us in what the Greeks referred to as Chairos time- God's opportune time.
Yes, I am familiar with the term Chairos time, such as it is used in Ecclesiastes and the Christian calender. We in Western society and Evangelical Christianity need to learn how to live in Chairos time. I have an amazing prof (of history and Christian spirituality) and he walks in Chairos time. He tells amazing stories of things that happen to him in everyday life...it's just amazing.

It makes me sad that I never grew up with the knowledge of the vast Christian spiritual heritage and have only learned about it in the last couple of years. And it makes it difficult to start. Spiritual disciplines are something I know I need to do, something I know that God is calling me to do, but something that I just don't make the time for; the spirit is certainly willing but the flesh is terribly weak.

I would love to go to a monastery for a week or two to get out of the world and into God. Someday...
I also grew up bereft of the spiritual heritage of silence and contemplation. Fortunately, I met someone about 10 years ago, back in my days as an Evangelical, who became a father in my life. He is an Anglican priest with Charismatic leanings, and He strongly encouraged group retreats and silent prayer. He himself does at least two or more (individual) prayer retreats of 3 days or more. So I have adopted and continued the practice over these years.

We still spend a weekend together in prayer and meditation each month.

I was able to spend a week at a monastery in New England 2 years ago. It was a life-changing experience. The environment there allowed me to spend time alone in prayer with God- but three to four times per day, we'd gather in the Church and pray the liturgy together. Also, we took meals together, so I was able to interact with the monks and occasionally with the nuns.

One monk in particular helped me to find peace on a few unresolved issues that had been nagging me.

Anyway, as you said faithfully and truthfully, the flesh is weak, even in the inspiration of the spirit. It is not easy to stop the spin and just settle down to prayer for a day- let alone a week. Like fasting, it is a discipline, a muscle that must be strengthened. Many people try to jump right into it, and, like an overweight and out of shape person who suddenly begins spending 2 hours a day in the gym, they become overwhelmed and discouraged, and burn out.

I pray that God supplies and meets your desires for Him, including time at a monastery. I'm convinced He will, in ways beyond our comprehension

James
 
C

cj

Guest
Orthodox Christian said:
I sincerely doubt that you have ever been to a monastery, CJ, so I expect and assume that you are speaking out of prejudice and ignorance.
Prove me wrong....
No need to, the Lord knows.

He also knows that you're to quick in your speaking.

Orthodox Christian said:
From my very earliest days as an adult Christian, I have taken times of retreat with God. I have done so alone and together with others.
Wondeful, but many do this out of the natural and thus the experience is one of mixture, which God hates.

Orthodox Christian said:
I have also spent time at a monastery, and it was incomparable. To spend time with people whose entire lives are dedicated solely to prayer and to service, in a space reserved for same, is truly heavenly.
Absolute foolishness and completely unscriptural.

Satanist can do the same.

Typical of your Eastern Orthodox "must see the outward to be impressed" way, so you are impressed by the seeming facade of a monastery. But what of the inward reality?

Orthodox Christian said:
Clearly, in the Old Covenant, God set apart priests and Levites, and of these, there were those who were set apart to minister in the Temple, thos set apart to minister in music and in prayer. Prophetic Scripture states clearly that even in the New Covenant, He "would take some for priests and Levites."
Sure, expoxe your nakedness by lumping in the old way with the new way.

God has set all believers "apart" OC,........ by a worshipper of the dead Nicolaitian system would pay no attention to this.

You attend to the petticoats of your false priests while paying little attention to the need of God in you.

Orthodox Christian said:
Finally, your exegesis regarding the Temple and the mountain is off the mark completely. The Temple of which Paul and Peter spoke of is the ekklesia, it is collective, and it is spoken of without reference to time. The mountain is referenced in Hebrews also, and it is the Church.

Neither of these have anything to do with prayer retreats,; neither advocate for or against when, where, and how.
My silly fellow, the mountain is Zion, and your spirit is Zion.

In your blindness it is you who missed the mark by missing the point.


Believers need only "retreat" into their spirit.


But that said, following the pattern of the Lord, He who is God, we all should find a quiet place away from others every once in awhile. But don't misunderstand me again, for it is by the Spirit you are lead by the Lord to where He would have you go. The commercial thought behind going to a monastery has nothing to do with being lead by the Spirit, and every thing to do with following the crowd.

BTW,..... ever been to a little island called Trinidad?

In love,
cj
 
O

Orthodox Christian

Guest
Orthodox Christian said:
I sincerely doubt that you have ever been to a monastery, CJ, so I expect and assume that you are speaking out of prejudice and ignorance.
Prove me wrong....
CJ said:
No need to, the Lord knows.
So you admit speaking about something you've never experienced- or to put it another way, running your mouth about something you don't have the first clue about.


CJ said:
He also knows that you're to quick in your speaking.
It's not that I'm quick in my speaking- you're just cramped with pangs of competition in your thinking. Add to that your willingness to give unsolicited opinions about things you nothing of, throw in a dash of abusive speech, and we have the train wreck that is your post (s).

Orthodox Christian said:
From my very earliest days as an adult Christian, I have taken times of retreat with God. I have done so alone and together with others.
CJ said:
Wondeful, but many do this out of the natural and thus the experience is one of mixture, which God hates.
And now you really show your ignorance. In point of fact, there is no "many" when it comes to prayer retreats. The practice is nearly extinct among Evangelical Protestants, and not a whole lot better among Catholics and Orthodox.

Orthodox Christian said:
I have also spent time at a monastery, and it was incomparable. To spend time with people whose entire lives are dedicated solely to prayer and to service, in a space reserved for same, is truly heavenly.
CJ said:
Absolute foolishness and completely unscriptural.
More abject ignorance, speaking from pride and utter darkness

CJ said:
Satanist can do the same.
Yes, and they can type tripe and gripe on the interwurb too.
CJ said:
Typical of your Eastern Orthodox "must see the outward to be impressed" way, so you are impressed by the seeming facade of a monastery. But what of the inward reality?
At length you speak about that which you admit not having experienced, investigated, perhaps even observed on television. If I was you, I'd be feeling the fool right now.

And you've got it quite backwards. We Orthodox are not impressed by those who claim to be of Christ, yet tear and bite at the very Bride of He whom they say they love.

I'm speaking not of Protestants in general, but of you specifically.

Orthodox Christian said:
Clearly, in the Old Covenant, God set apart priests and Levites, and of these, there were those who were set apart to minister in the Temple, thos set apart to minister in music and in prayer. Prophetic Scripture states clearly that even in the New Covenant, He "would take some for priests and Levites."
CJ said:
Sure, expoxe your nakedness by lumping in the old way with the new way.
Well, Marcion, we do not 'do away' with the Old Testament as you would. We see a connection between the Old and the New, with the New being that which is the full revelation of the Old. I quote scripture, and you dismiss it because it's Old Covenant.

Telling, that.

CJ said:
God has set all believers "apart" OC,........ by a worshipper of the dead Nicolaitian system would pay no attention to this.
Further, unimpeachable evidence of your rank ignorance. Nicholas was an antinomian, someone who tried to draw the people away into sexual immorality. You, of course, having read some knucklehead on the 'net who says this means "conquerer of the people"- and thus mean the Catholics- I tell you truthfully, your slim thread of credibility has snapped like a breadstick.

And I have said it before- I worship God and God alone. To insist that I do otherwise is nothing more than a personal attack- and a weak one at that.

CJ said:
You attend to the petticoats of your false priests while paying little attention to the need of God in you.
I believe the expression is coattails, but perhaps the pastors wear petticoats in your church?
Nothing would surprise me at this point.

Orthodox Christian said:
Finally, your exegesis regarding the Temple and the mountain is off the mark completely. The Temple of which Paul and Peter spoke of is the ekklesia, it is collective, and it is spoken of without reference to time. The mountain is referenced in Hebrews also, and it is the Church.

Neither of these have anything to do with prayer retreats,; neither advocate for or against when, where, and how.
CJ said:
My silly fellow, the mountain is Zion, and your spirit is Zion.
Read the whole verse and get learnt
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect
CJ said:
In your blindness it is you who missed the mark by missing the point.


Believers need only "retreat" into their spirit.
But that said, following the pattern of the Lord, He who is God, we all should find a quiet place away from others every once in awhile.
And thus you contradict yourself.

CJ said:
But don't misunderstand me again, for it is by the Spirit you are lead by the Lord to where He would have you go. The commercial thought behind going to a monastery has nothing to do with being lead by the Spirit, and every thing to do with following the crowd.
ROFL- "following the crowd"
Do you know how many people actually go spend time in a monastery? It is an undertaking engaged by almost no one in this age of "I can just retreat in the spirit" ---which actually means I can still watch my tv and plug into the net and eat 3 big meals and ...and...

Sort of misses the point

CJ said:
BTW,..... ever been to a little island called Trinidad?

In love,
cj
Can't say that I have. Why?
 

guibox

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
Orthodox Christian said:
CJ said:
You attend to the petticoats of your false priests while paying little attention to the need of God in you.
I believe the expression is coattails, but perhaps the pastors wear petticoats in your church?
Nothing would surprise me at this point
:-D

HAHAHAHA!!!! OC you kill me!

Sorry cj, but I suggest you quit while you're behind. I have to agree with OC on this entire argument when it comes to the illogic and contradictory notions of your post.

'petticoats' - 'chuckle'
 
C

CatholicXian

Guest
Free said:
Orthodox said:
I know exactly what you mean- we in the modern Western world are so predisposed to read and, at most, engage in critical thinking. Reflection, on the other hand, is nearly a lost art.
And I know exactly what you mean, and I certainly agree. We just don't know how to reflect, we are far too busy this results in too much noise in the soul.

Orthodox said:
There is a very marked difference between seeking personal illumination from the scripture and creating new doctrine. There are nuances in the scriptures that speak to us in what the Greeks referred to as Chairos time- God's opportune time.
Yes, I am familiar with the term Chairos time, such as it is used in Ecclesiastes and the Christian calender. We in Western society and Evangelical Christianity need to learn how to live in Chairos time. I have an amazing prof (of history and Christian spirituality) and he walks in Chairos time. He tells amazing stories of things that happen to him in everyday life...it's just amazing.

It makes me sad that I never grew up with the knowledge of the vast Christian spiritual heritage and have only learned about it in the last couple of years. And it makes it difficult to start. Spiritual disciplines are something I know I need to do, something I know that God is calling me to do, but something that I just don't make the time for; the spirit is certainly willing but the flesh is terribly weak.

I would love to go to a monastery for a week or two to get out of the world and into God. Someday...
I hope you get do that someday, Free. My experience in visiting a Monastery for a retreat was very graced.

During my semester abroad I went to a Monastery near Vienna during a weekend pretty early on in the semester, hoping to sort out the rush of being in a completely different culture, trying to study, and traveling... it turned out to be one of the best things I did abroad.

At first, the silence was CRAZY... and it was so hard to just sit and be still. I actually paced the Stations of the Cross (situtated going up a large hill overlooking much of the countryside) for a long time just trying to calm myself down and take it all in... I was in Europe, still studying, was planning a trip to Croatia the next weekend, and was completely blown away by the history of the Church in Europe. Almost every church one walks into over there is steeped in history... it was overwhelming. Eventually though, just being away from everything for a little while and not having to worry about anything but my relationship with God was such a blessing. It really gave me a lot of time not only to think and meditate on the presence of God, but also to just sit and be in the presence of God for a while.
 
O

Orthodox Christian

Guest
Re: "Lectio Divina"... "praying the Scripture

guibox said:
Orthodox Christian said:
Sarcasm- this word comes from a complex Greek term that means "to tear the flesh."
Bite and devour- and stick to the SDA playbook.

Pathetic.
Oi! Lighten up! :o

OC, you would be the first to admit that the most rabid, anti-Catholics on this forum are NOT the Adventists but the rest of the evangelicals here.
True enough. I don't know if you ever saw the movie '28 days later'- but there were these raging, destructive, murderous zombies who attacked everything that moved.
They were gentle and reasonable compared to some I've encountered here.

guibox said:
For your information, I am much more tolerant and accepting of Catholicism on this forum then most of the others who enjoy bashing it.
I grew up French Catholic until I was 13 and most of my family is Catholic.

I have more respect for Catholicism and Orthodox Christians then most Protestants who claim to be Sola Scriptura but follow their own man made traditions like the Pharisees or the very Catholic teaching they rail against.

I retract my sarcasm in light of sensitivity... ;-)
Fair enough, and well stated.
 
C

cj

Guest
Orthodox Christian said:
So you admit speaking about something you've never experienced- or to put it another way, running your mouth about something you don't have the first clue about.
No OC, if you were to take a little more time and read without your veil of offended feelings perhaps you might understand that my response was directed at your obnoxious suggestion that I "prove" something to you.

Orthodox Christian said:
It's not that I'm quick in my speaking- you're just cramped with pangs of competition in your thinking. Add to that your willingness to give unsolicited opinions about things you nothing of, throw in a dash of abusive speech, and we have the train wreck that is your post (s).
No OC, you are to quick in your speaking,... as demonstrated once again in your first response; as in both the above response and that in the post before it is most obvious that you focused on something that was not in my speaking.

You are wrought with pride and the offended feelings that pride comes with OC, typical of persons who have given their soul to the folly ways of religion.

Orthodox Christian said:
And now you really show your ignorance. In point of fact, there is no "many" when it comes to prayer retreats. The practice is nearly extinct among Evangelical Protestants, and not a whole lot better among Catholics and Orthodox.
"Retreats" are uncommon among today's beliving body?

What rock do you live under OC?

Orthodox Christian said:
More abject ignorance, speaking from pride and utter darkness
Show us all the scripture that says otherwise OC,....... come on, oh lord of so much religious knowledge,....... show us the scripture that declares "That to spend time with people whose entire lives are dedicated solely to prayer and to service, in a space reserved for same, is truly heavenly."


Fact is, you can't,.... cause there are none,.... oh ye who would attempt to put words in the Lord's mouth.

Orthodox Christian said:
Yes, and they can type tripe and gripe on the interwurb too.
Absolutely, we see this constantly in the speaking of the worshippers of religion.


Orthodox Christian said:
At length you speak about that which you admit not having experienced, investigated, perhaps even observed on television. If I was you, I'd be feeling the fool right now.
Yes, OC,..... I understand how your pride would cause this in you.

Again OC you have exposed your high opinion of yourself, typical of those who falsely believe as those the Lord spoke of in the book of Revelation, the Laodicians.

You remember them?

OC, refer to my first sentence and then perhaps you might have a change of heart towards who really is the fool here.

Orthodox Christian said:
And you've got it quite backwards...... We Orthodox..... are not impressed by those who claim to be of Christ, yet tear and bite at the very Bride of He whom they say they love.
You..... "We Orthodox" have no part of the Bride.

The very uttered phrase "We Orthodox" is akin to slapping Jesus in the face.

"We Orthodox"..... "We Orthodox"...... "We Orthodox"...... "We Orthodox"...... "We Orthodox"..... "We Orthodox"...... "We Orthodox"...... "We Orthodox"...... is a stench in the nostrils of God, the stench of rotting human flesh.

OC,...... your words alone prove you are not of the Bride.

Orthodox Christian said:
I'm speaking not of Protestants in general, but of you specifically.
Ohhh...... I quake in my boots at your threat.

OC, you're in darkness thus you speak much darkness.

Orthodox Christian said:
Well, Marcion, we do not 'do away' with the Old Testament as you would.
See, and now you would attempt to place words in my mouth.

I guess if you are ignorant enough to do this with Jesus, you would have even less thought about doing it with little old me.

Read again oh darkened one, I said nothing about "doing away" with the Old Testament.

But I understand why you would lie.

Orthodox Christian said:
We see a connection between the Old and the New, with the New being that which is the full revelation of the Old. I quote scripture, and you dismiss it because it's Old Covenant.
No, you lie again.

Its not that you "see" a connection between the two, but that you would try to once again bring God's people into the bondage of the Old by corrupting the New.

Satan can quote scripture OC,..... its not his words but what the words contain, death rather than life.

The religious speak words seeped in death.

Orthodox Christian said:
Further, unimpeachable evidence of your rank ignorance. Nicholas was an antinomian, someone who tried to draw the people away into sexual immorality. You, of course, having read some knucklehead on the 'net who says this means "conquerer of the people"- and thus mean the Catholics- I tell you truthfully, your slim thread of credibility has snapped like a breadstick.
"Some knucklehead",....... how you exalt yourself in the manner of your father, oh son in darkness.

BTW,..... the term the way of the Nicolaitian encompasses any who would put themselves above another, this includes Rome and her daughter harlots.... and is seen in such as what you just exposed yourself as doing.

Orthodox Christian said:
And I have said it before- I worship God and God alone. To insist that I do otherwise is nothing more than a personal attack- and a weak one at that.
Your words suggest somethimg different OC...... Over and over again.

Your use of the term "We Orthodox" is simply more proof of this.

You worship what you think you are. This is not true worship of He who is.

Orthodox Christian said:
I believe the expression is coattails, but perhaps the pastors wear petticoats in your church?
In the sense you mean, I have no pastor but One.

And as for petticoats, perhaps if you put a little more thought into it you might come to understand the deeper meaning behind my use of the word petticoat.

Orthodox Christian said:
Nothing would surprise me at this point.
Whatever dude, you kissed a guy.

Orthodox Christian said:
Finally, your exegesis regarding the Temple and the mountain is off the mark completely. The Temple of which Paul and Peter spoke of is the ekklesia, it is collective, and it is spoken of without reference to time. The mountain is referenced in Hebrews also, and it is the Church.

Neither of these have anything to do with prayer retreats,; neither advocate for or against when, where, and how.
Orthodox Christian said:
Read the whole verse and get learnt......
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect
I stand by what I said.

Your scriptural ignorance doesn't change a thing of the truth.

Orthodox Christian said:
And thus you contradict yourself.
No, not at all. Jesus nor Paul set a pattern of "retreating" to a monastery.

A quiet place is simply a place away from distractions.

The way of your religion though, is to attempt to institutionalize this in a way that affords control over the seeking believer. It is the way of the Nicolaitian.

And its a stench in God's nostrils.

Orthodox Christian said:
ROFL- "following the crowd"
Do you know how many people actually go spend time in a monastery? It is an undertaking engaged by almost no one in this age of "I can just retreat in the spirit" ---which actually means I can still watch my tv and plug into the net and eat 3 big meals and ...and...
And here we see the institutionalization that has become a tower of worship in your fallen mind.

Lets listen closely for the underlying motive,.....

"Do you know how many people actually go spend time in a monastery? It is an undertaking engaged by almost no one in this age...."

Oh, how your words declare your worship of this false altar.

OC, Satan will call it by whatever term necessary,...... monastery, retreat,.... it matters not how the human sees it. What matters is that Satan gets folks to fall into it.

Orthodox Christian said:
Can't say that I have. Why?
There is a monastery there, one that is considered to be the oldest active monastery in the Carribbean.

Perhaps you can add it to your list of institutional pursuits.


In love,
cj
 
C

cj

Guest
guibox said:
Sorry cj, but I suggest you quit while you're behind. I have to agree with OC on this entire argument when it comes to the illogic and contradictory notions of your post.
Guibox, darkness is darkness, whether it is uttered from your mouth or OC's mouth.

What heed should I pay to such?

None.

In love,
cj
 

2020 Hosting Fee

Total amount
$532.00
Goal
$667.40
Top