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[__ Science __ ] Legalized Polygamy in America? It’s Coming

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Polygamy, polyamory, and other strains of sexual immorality are being explored in America as we drift further from the standard of God’s Word.

Continue reading...
 

wondering

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Sure.
What's the surprise?
No absolute morals means anything goes.
 

jasonc

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Sure.
What's the surprise?
No absolute morals means anything goes.
I was alluding to this in the free will thread.

where one is free to anything so long as its politically correct. where greed is ok. where it is ok to force the rich to help the poor. for the corporates to milk profits and use tax payer subidisied, or in the case of Walmart, encourage the workers to use tanf. we are paying for their health in that case, and the other.

note:im not a statist, but I refuse to ignore the greed that I see. this if it wasn't a political debate type needs a thread.
 

wondering

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I was alluding to this in the free will thread.

where one is free to anything so long as its politically correct. where greed is ok. where it is ok to force the rich to help the poor. for the corporates to milk profits and use tax payer subidisied, or in the case of Walmart, encourage the workers to use tanf. we are paying for their health in that case, and the other.

note:im not a statist, but I refuse to ignore the greed that I see. this if it wasn't a political debate type needs a thread.
Of course.
I'm not sure what free will has to do with greed,,,
but I generally agree with you.

There MUST be absolute morals...
but most believe in subjective morality.
If it feels right to them...they do it.
 

wondering

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I assume Christians won’t be forced to practice polygamy?
Will Christians stop getting divorces?
What does this mean?
Since we get divorced, then it's OK to practice other stuff?
I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure.
 

jasonc

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Of course.
I'm not sure what free will has to do with greed,,,
but I generally agree with you.

There MUST be absolute morals...
but most believe in subjective morality.
If it feels right to them...they do it.
Most addicts never quit and die from it .

View sin like that and you,will see why total depravity has a point .we can't choose to be good and be so good that God must accept us .


We simply can't ,that's what Freddy is arguing .God must want to heal us.
 

wondering

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Most addicts never quit and die from it .

View sin like that and you,will see why total depravity has a point .we can't choose to be good and be so good that God must accept us .


We simply can't ,that's what Freddy is arguing .God must want to heal us.
Fastfredy0 is the only person on this forum that is properly representing calvinism.
Except maybe for some misunderstanding on my part, which will be fixed, he is stating what John Calvin and other reformers taught. Others make statement that are rather confusing to me....

As to no one being able to choose good...
I agree with you that we cannot save ourselves by good works. This is a doctrine that all Christians believe. Faith is necessary.

But the bible does not speak about total depravity that makes man unable to chose good - and God - of his own free will.

There is no scripture in the N.T. regarding TOTAL depravity, but only about man being depraved and being born with the sin nature. Man is depraved, but able to chose God.
Ephesians 1:13

AFTER listening to the message of truth...
Having ALSO BELIEVED....
we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

We listen
We believe
We are saved

The N.T. teaches that we are to take ACTION to become saved...
we must believe....

Nowhere does it state that we are to do NOTHING
because God will do it all for us.
 

jasonc

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Fastfredy0 is the only person on this forum that is properly representing calvinism.
Except maybe for some misunderstanding on my part, which will be fixed, he is stating what John Calvin and other reformers taught. Others make statement that are rather confusing to me....

As to no one being able to choose good...
I agree with you that we cannot save ourselves by good works. This is a doctrine that all Christians believe. Faith is necessary.

But the bible does not speak about total depravity that makes man unable to chose good - and God - of his own free will.

There is no scripture in the N.T. regarding TOTAL depravity, but only about man being depraved and being born with the sin nature. Man is depraved, but able to chose God.
Ephesians 1:13

AFTER listening to the message of truth...
Having ALSO BELIEVED....
we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

We listen
We believe
We are saved

The N.T. teaches that we are to take ACTION to become saved...
we must believe....

Nowhere does it state that we are to do NOTHING
because God will do it all for us.
What exactly does it mean because He first loved us..


1 john 4:19.

Calvinisn doesn't imply you,don't make a decision.

They teach that God wanting you,to be saved makes your life he'll.he allows sin to decimate you .he knowing,that will,one day repent ,ordained the day of it.seeing it long,before you birth .you can't reject it because God forseen it.

Our lives ,already are played out before him.a being outside of time knows us better then we do.he knows what will,do today ,what we did .

You,are stuck in this limited ,finite view of time .I have literally had God interupt ,rmy,life to get me saved .he let me go and go until it was the time.


I,didn't seek him,he sought me .God inmates the marriage .in Jewry as my family can be used.the male proclaims his love for the wife,he comes for the bride ,he takes her to the rabbi to be wed.

Ever wonder why Jesus used Jewish wedding ceremonies ,they rejoice at weddings .my family has a fb page it has a photo of my grandpa and his eight siblings under the chuppa .there are other photos of the dancing ,the plates being tossed,the ceremonial first night together ,the wine drinking with the groom stating his vows to his future wife .

Male leading the woman he loves into the marriage ,of course its but a dark glimmer ,but the bride is happy to become a wife and in those days the parents choose the wives ,a dowry was haggeled amongst men.

I'm,not suggesting that for a marriage but only using the chuppa to show you how God sought after the nation of isReal and the church .


Let the redeemed of the Lord say so,in context originally is about isreal.it applies to the church ,but not only,the church as is real was redeemed .it will be again ,but that's another thread and I may bounce off the church futurists and pastor on this.

God bought is real in exodus ,he redeemed them .there is a few versus on that in the prophets on is real being a bloddied baby girl and being cleansed and redeemed and married to by God .

I am married to a perpetual backslider
 

Fastfredy0

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But the bible does not speak about total depravity that makes man unable to chose good - and God - of his own free will.

There is no scripture in the N.T. regarding TOTAL depravity, but only about man being depraved and being born with the sin nature. Man is depraved, but able to chose God.
Well, TOTAL DEPRAVITY is not a biblical term, just like "the TRINITY" is not a biblical term. Both are the ways theologians organize various passages in the bible to best convey a biblical concept. The 20ish verses I quoted earlier are, I estimate, half the total verses that lead theologians to coin the term TOTAL DEPRAVITY. TRINITY, TOTAL DEPRAVITY ... both are terms that represents the summation of many verses and make communication easier.
I am surprised you don't acknowledge TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Most free willers that know their stuff like you acknowledge it's existence as there are so many verses establishing it. Free willer's defense is "prevenient grace'.

Wesleyans concur that their theology hinges on the doctrine prevenient grace. Robert E. Chiles says that "without it, the Calvinist logic is irrefutable." The two primary differences between prevenient grace and irresistible grace are scope and resistibility. Arminians believe that God draws everyone to Himself, while Calvinists believe that He draws a limited number. Arminians believe that drawing grace can be rejected, while Calvinists believe that drawing grace is always effectual.

Arminian’s define “Prevenient grace” as that the freedom, which was lost in Adam's sin, which is sufficiently restored to enable people to choose salvation. Prevenient grace provides people with the ability to choose or reject God. Prevenient grace does not guarantee that the good will be chosen. It simply provides the opportunity or liberty to choose salvation.

Wesleyans use at least four arguments to support the idea that prevenient grace is a doctrine rooted in Scripture.

Nowhere does it state that we are to do NOTHING
because God will do it all for us.
Agreed. But that does not convey my concept properly. We do something (technical term is Second Cause) because God promotes (controls) that action (technical term is First Cause). I believe and and obey because God loved/selected/elect me first and regenerated me; faith being part of regeneration per Ephesians 2:8-9 (which you did not respond to). Now, I react because of what God did. Example: I put a lit match under your finger. I am the first cause, and you response freely (you do what you desire most at the time) by moving your hand away.
Aside: The Law of Causality states every Effect has a Cause. The statement is self-authenticating. The only thing or being that can cause an effect and itself not be caused (First Cause) must be eternal; else something caused it to be (created it). God is uncreated/eternal; we are created and thus everything we do, think, say must have been caused by something else. Aside: Mormons believe earth and all souls are eternal and therefore have no cause. This is not true in our opinion, but if so could explain "free will" from the LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT. God cannot create something that is NOT-GOD which would be your 'free will'; you have to get it from some other first cause like the mormons do.
 

wondering

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Well, TOTAL DEPRAVITY is not a biblical term, just like "the TRINITY" is not a biblical term. Both are the ways theologians organize various passages in the bible to best convey a biblical concept. The 20ish verses I quoted earlier are, I estimate, half the total verses that lead theologians to coin the term TOTAL DEPRAVITY. TRINITY, TOTAL DEPRAVITY ... both are terms that represents the summation of many verses and make communication easier.
I am surprised you don't acknowledge TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Most free willers that know their stuff like you acknowledge it's existence as there are so many verses establishing it. Free willer's defense is "prevenient grace'.

Wesleyans concur that their theology hinges on the doctrine prevenient grace. Robert E. Chiles says that "without it, the Calvinist logic is irrefutable." The two primary differences between prevenient grace and irresistible grace are scope and resistibility. Arminians believe that God draws everyone to Himself, while Calvinists believe that He draws a limited number. Arminians believe that drawing grace can be rejected, while Calvinists believe that drawing grace is always effectual.

Arminian’s define “Prevenient grace” as that the freedom, which was lost in Adam's sin, which is sufficiently restored to enable people to choose salvation. Prevenient grace provides people with the ability to choose or reject God. Prevenient grace does not guarantee that the good will be chosen. It simply provides the opportunity or liberty to choose salvation.

Wesleyans use at least four arguments to support the idea that prevenient grace is a doctrine rooted in Scripture.


Agreed. But that does not convey my concept properly. We do something (technical term is Second Cause) because God promotes (controls) that action (technical term is First Cause). I believe and and obey because God loved/selected/elect me first and regenerated me; faith being part of regeneration per Ephesians 2:8-9 (which you did not respond to). Now, I react because of what God did. Example: I put a lit match under your finger. I am the first cause, and you response freely (you do what you desire most at the time) by moving your hand away.
Aside: The Law of Causality states every Effect has a Cause. The statement is self-authenticating. The only thing or being that can cause an effect and itself not be caused (First Cause) must be eternal; else something caused it to be (created it). God is uncreated/eternal; we are created and thus everything we do, think, say must have been caused by something else. Aside: Mormons believe earth and all souls are eternal and therefore have no cause. This is not true in our opinion, but if so could explain "free will" from the LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT. God cannot create something that is NOT-GOD which would be your 'free will'; you have to get it from some other first cause like the mormons do.
I agree with your first part and how you understand the differences.
I don't know if I'm an Arminian but for discussin purposes I don't mind if you use that term. I'll go with it. I like Wesleyan better since I know those teachings.

Not sure about your second part but it's very late now and it'll have to wait.
Guess this is page 8.....
'night.
 

Avigdor

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Well, TOTAL DEPRAVITY is not a biblical term, just like "the TRINITY" is not a biblical term. Both are the ways theologians organize various passages in the bible to best convey a biblical concept. The 20ish verses I quoted earlier are, I estimate, half the total verses that lead theologians to coin the term TOTAL DEPRAVITY. TRINITY, TOTAL DEPRAVITY ... both are terms that represents the summation of many verses and make communication easier.
I am surprised you don't acknowledge TOTAL DEPRAVITY. Most free willers that know their stuff like you acknowledge it's existence as there are so many verses establishing it. Free willer's defense is "prevenient grace'.

Wesleyans concur that their theology hinges on the doctrine prevenient grace. Robert E. Chiles says that "without it, the Calvinist logic is irrefutable." The two primary differences between prevenient grace and irresistible grace are scope and resistibility. Arminians believe that God draws everyone to Himself, while Calvinists believe that He draws a limited number. Arminians believe that drawing grace can be rejected, while Calvinists believe that drawing grace is always effectual.

Arminian’s define “Prevenient grace” as that the freedom, which was lost in Adam's sin, which is sufficiently restored to enable people to choose salvation. Prevenient grace provides people with the ability to choose or reject God. Prevenient grace does not guarantee that the good will be chosen. It simply provides the opportunity or liberty to choose salvation.

Wesleyans use at least four arguments to support the idea that prevenient grace is a doctrine rooted in Scripture.


Agreed. But that does not convey my concept properly. We do something (technical term is Second Cause) because God promotes (controls) that action (technical term is First Cause). I believe and and obey because God loved/selected/elect me first and regenerated me; faith being part of regeneration per Ephesians 2:8-9 (which you did not respond to). Now, I react because of what God did. Example: I put a lit match under your finger. I am the first cause, and you response freely (you do what you desire most at the time) by moving your hand away.
Aside: The Law of Causality states every Effect has a Cause. The statement is self-authenticating. The only thing or being that can cause an effect and itself not be caused (First Cause) must be eternal; else something caused it to be (created it). God is uncreated/eternal; we are created and thus everything we do, think, say must have been caused by something else. Aside: Mormons believe earth and all souls are eternal and therefore have no cause. This is not true in our opinion, but if so could explain "free will" from the LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT. God cannot create something that is NOT-GOD which would be your 'free will'; you have to get it from some other first cause like the mormons do.
And we do choose. We make a choice at some point that we believe in Jesus of the Bible and His saving work for us. That's how people operate as created by God. And many,many many of us (Me too in the beginning) think that it was our choice that saved us. And that is ok, it is what most have been taught. But the reason we chose Jesus was because in His wonderful mercy and grace, He made us both willing and able. He regenerated our fallen heart, gave us a new birth, without which no one would be saved.
Second causes.
 

Fastfredy0

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I agree with your first part and how you understand the differences.
I don't know if I'm an Arminian but for discussin purposes I don't mind if you use that term. I'll go with it. I like Wesleyan better since I know those teachings.

Not sure about your second part but it's very late now and it'll have to wait.
Guess this is page 8.....
'night.
Your with Wesleyan ... hmmm .. read https://davidfwatson.me/2019/02/18/did-john-wesley-affirm-total-depravity/ ... it says what I said (not that it makes me right) ... That Wesley was basically in agreement with Calvin in regards to TOTAL DEPRAVITY ... goes on to say he gets past the issue with 'preventing grace' (most call it pervenient grace in my readings)
Maybe I can get Wesley to change your mind about the existence of 'pervenient grace'. :pray
 
Last edited:

Fastfredy0

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And we do choose. We make a choice at some point that we believe in Jesus of the Bible and His saving work for us. That's how people operate as created by God. And many,many many of us (Me too in the beginning) think that it was our choice that saved us. And that is ok, it is what most have been taught. But the reason we chose Jesus was because in His wonderful mercy and grace, He made us both willing and able. He regenerated our fallen heart, gave us a new birth, without which no one would be saved.
Second causes.
Total agreement with you (not that that makes us right). I also believed it was my sole responsibility to believe when I was much younger, I thought I had to participate with God's work (synergism) to be saved. Scripture and good teachers convinced me otherwise. (of course, the synergist's would say "bad" teachers (smile)

One of many verses showing faith is given us by God:
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle (special messenger, personally chosen representative) of Jesus Christ, To those who have received and possess a precious faith of the same kind as ours ... Note: definition of "received" is: be given, presented with, or paid (something)
 
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What does this mean?
Since we get divorced, then it's OK to practice other stuff?
I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure.
My opinion is that Christians should live as Christians. I don’t expect perfection but in too many ways we resemble the rest of the world way too much. Our divorce rates is one.
Seems we should concentrate on shoring up our marriages. I don’t believe in polygamy. But I also don’t know that we have reason to expect the world to act like it accepts the standards of the Bible. Especially when we don’t do the best job at it ourselves.
There are many cases where we do this. Railing against stores that have “Happy Holidays” signs instead of “Merry Christmas”. We can say “Merry Christmas”, they can do what they want.
We are supposed to understand what we need is the Holy Spirit’s aid, received when we are reconciled to God through Christ, to begin to walk with Him as we should.
For some reason we push for legal/political statutes thinking we can get unbelievers to behave morally.
I don’t recall anything in the NT where Christians are pushing to control the cultures around them through coercion, or political action or legislation.
It’s done by cooperating with God in telling individuals about Christ with strong credibility by living like He has done some special something in them.
 

Barnaby

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You raise some interesting points, Bull of the Woods. There is a huge difference between Christianity and Christendom
 

wondering

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What exactly does it mean because He first loved us..


1 john 4:19.

Calvinisn doesn't imply you,don't make a decision.
Of course calvinism implies we don't make a decision.
If Piper can state that God has predetermined everything from the beginning,,,how could YOU say that God did not?

According to Calvinism, we do not make any decision...
they are all made for us.

Not only that,,,but we have nothing to do whatsoever with deciding to be saved.
What do you think UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION means? It means GOD chooses us based on NOTHING AT ALL...it's at His whim. YOU have no choice as to whether or not you are saved.
If you don't believe this then you cannot call yourself a calvinist or should you be going to a calvinist church.

Does that sound like a loving God to you?


They teach that God wanting you,to be saved makes your life he'll.he allows sin to decimate you .he knowing,that will,one day repent ,ordained the day of it.seeing it long,before you birth .you can't reject it because God forseen it.
This would be IRRESISTIBLE GRACE.
Because God FORESAW something does NOT mean He caused that something to happen.
It must means He KNEW it would happen.

Our lives ,already are played out before him.a being outside of time knows us better then we do.he knows what will,do today ,what we did .
I agree with this.
But you keep switching back and forth...this is NOT what you said just above.
above you said that we CANNOT reject God when He gives us salvation because He foresaw it.

You,are stuck in this limited ,finite view of time .I have literally had God interupt ,rmy,life to get me saved .he let me go and go until it was the time.


I,didn't seek him,he sought me .God inmates the marriage .in Jewry as my family can be used.the male proclaims his love for the wife,he comes for the bride ,he takes her to the rabbi to be wed.

Ever wonder why Jesus used Jewish wedding ceremonies ,they rejoice at weddings .my family has a fb page it has a photo of my grandpa and his eight siblings under the chuppa .there are other photos of the dancing ,the plates being tossed,the ceremonial first night together ,the wine drinking with the groom stating his vows to his future wife .

Male leading the woman he loves into the marriage ,of course its but a dark glimmer ,but the bride is happy to become a wife and in those days the parents choose the wives ,a dowry was haggeled amongst men.

I'm,not suggesting that for a marriage but only using the chuppa to show you how God sought after the nation of isReal and the church .
Great. When God is speaking about election, He means the election of Israel from which He would reveal Himself. I agree with this. But you've again changed your mind from personal salvation to corporate salvation.


Let the redeemed of the Lord say so,in context originally is about isreal.it applies to the church ,but not only,the church as is real was redeemed .it will be again ,but that's another thread and I may bounce off the church futurists and pastor on this.

God bought is real in exodus ,he redeemed them .there is a few versus on that in the prophets on is real being a bloddied baby girl and being cleansed and redeemed and married to by God .

I am married to a perpetual backslider
At least we can agree about Israel.
I'm sorry about your spouse.
Some of us have spouses that are not even saved....

So do you think God PREDESTINED your wife to be a perpetual backslider?
Does this give God glory?
 

jasonc

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Yes
Of course calvinism implies we don't make a decision.
If Piper can state that God has predetermined everything from the beginning,,,how could YOU say that God did not?

According to Calvinism, we do not make any decision...
they are all made for us.

Not only that,,,but we have nothing to do whatsoever with deciding to be saved.
What do you think UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION means? It means GOD chooses us based on NOTHING AT ALL...it's at His whim. YOU have no choice as to whether or not you are saved.
If you don't believe this then you cannot call yourself a calvinist or should you be going to a calvinist church.

Does that sound like a loving God to you?



This would be IRRESISTIBLE GRACE.
Because God FORESAW something does NOT mean He caused that something to happen.
It must means He KNEW it would happen.


I agree with this.
But you keep switching back and forth...this is NOT what you said just above.
above you said that we CANNOT reject God when He gives us salvation because He foresaw it.


Great. When God is speaking about election, He means the election of Israel from which He would reveal Himself. I agree with this. But you've again changed your mind from personal salvation to corporate salvation.



At least we can agree about Israel.
I'm sorry about your spouse.
Some of us have spouses that are not even saved....

So do you think God PREDESTINED your wife to be a perpetual backslider?
Does this give God glory?
Isreal,is called that a perpetual backslider
 
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