Let's talk About Heaven

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

A lot of people make the mistake of reading John chapters 14-17 then taking the words of Jesus and applying those words to you, I, and everyone when in fact He was addressing a very specific group. I will totally admit that the whole Heaven promise or should I say invite is difficult to grasp and I am still studying and trying to further my knowledge on the subject, but as I currently understand it, it seems that the Heavenly inheritance was a promise limited by Jesus to an elect few.

It seems the main hope of the human race given in scripture is a resurrection as opposed to a heavenly inheritance. I know we have been taught in religion that after death, heaven awaits, but as one studies the scriptures it seems like it can be correctly concluded that the invitation to heaven was a limited one.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

There seems to be distinctions made in scripture between the righteous. For instance, you have the Bride and then you have the guests. You have the 144,000 and then you have the great multitude. You have the saints that reign with Jesus 1000 years, then you have the other saved ones as well.

I won't pretend to act as if I definately know the meaning of the 1000 years, but I will point out some things I notice about it that often gets overlooked.

Rev 20:4-6
And I saw thrones… and those who sat down on them were the ones who had been executed with axes for testifying about Jesus and for telling about God, and who hadn’t worshiped the wild animal or its image, and who hadn’t received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. Then they were appointed judges, and they came to life and ruled as kings with the Anointed One for a thousand years … this is the first resurrection. 6 Those who have a part in the first resurrection are blest and holy, because the second death doesn’t have any power over them. For, they will be Priests of God and the Anointed One, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.

1. It never says Jesus would reign on the Earth 1000 years.
2. It never limit's Jesus' reign to 1000 years.
3. All it really seems to say is that certain martyred saints would be resurrected from the dead to reign WITH JESUS 1000 years.
4. The reign of Jesus would appear to both pre and post date the 1000 year reign of the chosen ones with Him.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The Promise of a Kingdom

The actual agreement that opened the way for a small number to go to heaven to serve as rulers over the earth, was the one that Jesus made with his faithful Apostles during his last supper. Notice what he said, as recorded at Luke 22:28-30:

‘However, you are the ones who stuck with me during my trials, so I’m making a promise to you, just as my Father made a promise to me, for a Kingdom… that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.’

This sacred promise by Jesus was the first vehicle mentioned in the Bible that allowed men entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. And it wasn’t opened or offered to all mankind, just to certain chosen individuals, starting with Jesus’ eleven faithful Apostles.
This promise was different from the Sacred Agreement that God had made with ‘spiritual Israel’ (all those who claim to be His servants), which was based on the shed blood of Jesus, for that Agreement never promised life in heaven.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

If we read what the Bible says that the hope of the early Israelites was before the time of Jesus, we will see things like what Job said about death:

Job 14:12, ‘So, when man goes to sleep he won’t rise again, until [the stars] are sewn together… they never awaken from sleep.’
Psalm 49:19, 20 says of a man who dies, ‘From generation to generation he’ll go down to his fathers, and through the ages he’ll never see light. For a man of honor does not realize, that he resembles the unthinking cattle, and that he very much like them.’
Psalm 146: 3, 4 says, ‘Do not rely upon rulers… the sons of men who have no salvation. For, His breath goes out; he’s gone from his land; and in that day his thoughts pass away.’

The Bible Hope
Then, what hope did faithful men and women of old (such as King David) have for life after death? They believed that in some future time, God would resurrect them and bring them back to life. And although the faithful man Job was the first to mention his hope of a resurrection, the first person to prophecy about it was a woman, Hannah, the mother of the Prophet Samuel.

1 Samuel 2:7, 8
‘For, Jehovah kills and gives birth to the living;
He takes them to the grave and leads them back out.
It’s Jehovah who makes the poor and the rich;
Yes, He humbles and raises.
He resurrects the needy from the ground,
And He raises the poor from the dirt,
To seat them with the mighty of the people,
Where a throne of glory they’ll inherit.’

And when did they believe that ‘the poor’ would be raised ‘from the dirt?’ Well, Job prayed (at Job 14:13-15 LXX)

‘O that in the grave You had guarded and hid me ‘til You anger had passed away. Please order a time to be set for me when You’ll mention my name once again. Can a man live again after he dies, once the days of his life have past? As for me, I will wait ‘til I live again, when You will call me and I’ll listen.’

So, the clear hope of the earliest servants of God was that He would remember them at some future time and resurrect them back to life, when they may be rewarded for their faithfulness by being appointed kings.

 

[elijah23]

Heaven, I think, is this:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

When you repent, you will understand what heaven is.

 

[Strangelove]

Heaven is:

The physical area from 1mm off the ground right up to the waters above the firmament.

That is heaven.

If I'm not mistaken, our promise is eternal life in the Kingdom OF heaven, that is the Kingdom that comes from or is made in heaven which is New Jerusalem which will land on the New Earth after all the Judgement business takes place on the last day.

Jesus comes, the righteous and the wicked are judged...the righteouss enter the Kingdom and the wicked are incinerated and destroyed.

(With no Jewish fable, blissfull millenial kingdom on this old Earth to be seen) 2

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The scriptures are pretty definitive in affirming that Heaven is a real place. This place, this heaven though, is not a place that is promised to all who follow Jesus and practice righteousness.

 

[Alabaster]

The scriptures are pretty definitive in affirming that Heaven is a real place. This place, this heaven though, is not a place that is promised to all who follow Jesus and practice righteousness.

Sure it is.

2 Peter 3:13 NLT
But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Sure it is.

2 Peter 3:13 NLT
But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness.

2 Peter's reference to the new heavens is a reference to a new sky just as the reference to the new earth is a reference to the new land, dirt, or ground.

13 and we’re awaiting the new earth and skies that He has promised, in which the righteous will dwell!

As stated above, the scriptures do speak of Heaven (the abode of God's Throne), but that abode is not what has been promised in scripture to the righteous. A select few MAY be privy to such an inheritance, but not all. Based on the texts, it appears that the hope of mankind is a resurrection to life that will be spend on the new earth under the new skies without the stain of sin and corruption.

 

[Alabaster]

2 Peter's reference to the new heavens is a reference to a new sky just as the reference to the new earth is a reference to the new land, dirt, or ground.



As stated above, the scriptures do speak of Heaven (the abode of God's Throne), but that abode is not what has been promised in scripture to the righteous. A select few MAY be privy to such an inheritance, but not all. Based on the texts, it appears that the hope of mankind is a resurrection to life that will be spend on the new earth under the new skies without the stain of sin and corruption.

What is promised is that we will be where Jesus is forever. He is in the heavenly Kingdom now, in the third heaven. However, when the Kingdom is on earth, we will be with Him here.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What is promised is that we will be where Jesus is forever. He is in the heavenly Kingdom now, in the third heaven. However, when the Kingdom is on earth, we will be with Him here.

1 ‘Now, don’t let your hearts be troubled; just have faith in God and have faith in me. 2 There are many places to stay in my Father’s house… if this weren’t so, I wouldn’t have told you that I’m going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I’m going to prepare a place for you, I will also return and take you with me, so you’ll be where I am… 4 and then you’ll know the way to where I’m going.

The promise in the above text is to Jesus' 12 apostles, no one else. The entire context of chapters 14-17 is about them and Jesus with jesus also mentioning a prayer for unity for those who will come later.

 

[Alabaster]

The promise in the above text is to Jesus' 12 apostles, no one else. The entire context of chapters 14-17 is about them.

That is a fallacy.

What Jesus promised to His disciples is also a promise for us...or it wouldn't be included in scripture for the hope of all ensuing generations.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

That is a fallacy.

What Jesus promised to His disciples is also a promise for us...or it wouldn't be included in scripture for the hope of all ensuing generations.

The fallacy is assuming that scripture was directed at future generations as opposed to the contemporaries of the writers. Very little, but some admittedly of what is in scripture is directed at future generation, but the fact is, MOST is not.

Now tell me, how can you in good make the statement you made as if it were fact when it is not supported by scripture? When looking at scripture with an open mind free of preconceptions, one can see, and see pretty clearly that there different promises made to different groups. For example, the apostles were promised 12 thrones to judge the 12 tribes, the martyred saiths were said to be given a 1000 yr reign with Jesus, etc.

 

[Alabaster]

The fallacy is assuming that scripture was directed at future generations as opposed to the contemporaries of the writers. Very little, but some admittedly of what is in scripture is directed at future generation, but the fact is, MOST is not.

That is what Satan would have you believe. The entire Bible is written by God with you in mind, friend.

 

[Free]

When looking at scripture with an open mind free of preconceptions, one can see

As long as one keeps in mind that a mind free of preconceptions is an impossibility.

 

[Strangelove]

The scriptures are pretty definitive in affirming that Heaven is a real place.

Yeah and I just defined it for you.

The physical area from 1mm off the ground right up to the waters above the firmament.

This place, this heaven though, is not a place that is promised to all who follow Jesus and practice righteousness.

Correct. The KINGDOM is the place promised.

 

[Alabaster]

There is the first, second and third heaven, mentioned in scripture.

 

[Strangelove]

There is the first, second and third heaven, mentioned in scripture.

Why is the third heaven above the waters above the firmament in your graphic?

Heaven is the firmament so you cant have firmament above the 'waters above the firmament'.

:....otherwise they wouldn't be the 'waters above the firmament'.

 

[Alabaster]

The third heaven is where the throne of God is.

 

[Strangelove]

The third heaven is where the throne of God is.

Ya....?....?...? I know.

That doesnt address the inaccuracy of your graphic though. :

The entire firmament is between the waters below and the waters above. The throne of God is in heaven so must be below the 'waters above'.