Living stones, vineyards, and the end of all things...

[Stormcrow]

The purpose of this thread is to get people to see a consistent thread that runs throughout the prophecies of both the Old and New Testaments.

Dispensationalism and Futurism both point to the Olivet Discourse, in particular, and Revelation, in general, as proof that the kingdom will be restored to Israel and that Jesus will return at some "soon" but unspecified time in our future to reign from a physical throne in Jerusalem.

The thread you are about to read (if you dare) shatters that myth.

For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. 1 Peter 2:4-8 (NASB)

Peter didn't mince words: disbelievers and the disobedient were appointed to doom. But it's not the doom the dispy/futurist sees when they read this passage. The dispy/futurist view believes this verse applies to disbelievers and the disobedient of all time, and while that may be true on one level, that is not what this passage is referring to.

Peter (and Paul, in Romans 9, as well as Luke in Acts 4) cites this passage about the stone that was rejected from Psalm 118:22. It's the same Psalm Jesus is quotes in Matthew 21:

Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'? Matthew 21:42 (NASB)

Jesus is the first one in the New Testament to tie the rejection of the "chief cornerstone" (Him) to Israel (something Paul does later in Romans 9), and He (Jesus) puts this rejection in the context of the parable of the vineyard:

"Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey. Matthew 21:33 (NASB)

Think Jesus didn't know the words of the prophets He inspired them to write? The parable of the vineyard comes from Isaiah's song of the vineyard in Isaiah 5:

Let me sing now for my well-beloved A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard. My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill. He dug it all around, removed its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it And also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, But it produced only worthless ones. Isaiah 5:1-2 (NASB)

If I could collimate the following passages - one from Matthew 21 and the other from Isaiah 5 - you would see that they are both referring to judgment on disbelief and disobedience, not of all mankind as the dispy/futurist believes, but of judgment upon Israel!

"When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce. "The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third. "Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them. "But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' "But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' "They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

"Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?" They *said to Him, "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end [kakos apollumi: cruel destruction], and will rent out the vineyard to other vine-growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons." Matthew 21:34-41 (NASB)

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. Matthew 21:43-45 (NASB)

(The woes of Matthew 23 were directed at them, too, and Jesus specifically tells them "...all these things will come upon this generation" literally meaning the generation of those to whom He was speaking.)

So how do we know this "taking of the kingdom away from Israel and its corrupt, apostate priesthood" is about judgment and destruction? Because we have precedent for it in Isaiah 5, the song of the vineyard Jesus cites in Matthew 21!

"And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge between Me and My vineyard. "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones? "So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard: I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed; I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground. "I will lay it waste; It will not be pruned or hoed, But briars and thorns will come up. I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it." For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel And the men of Judah His delightful plant. Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress. Isaiah 5:3-7 (NASB)

Isaiah 5:1-7 was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon in 586 BC. Matthew 21 through 25 were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD.

Matthew 21-25 is not about the restoration of Jerusalem; Revelation 8-22 is not about the restoration of Jerusalem: both are about its destruction and judgment: the same "doom" to which Peter writes that they are appointed when Christ returns!

The end of all things is near...1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men [the same disbelieving and disobedient men to whom he refers earlier!]. 2 Peter 3:7 (NASB)

This "end of all things" to which Peter refers - like the disbelievers and disobedient to which he refers in chapter 2 - is not the end of all time and the universe as we know it! It's about the doom that would come on those who killed the Son mistakenly thinking that they might keep the "vineyard" (kingdom)! (John 11:47-52).

Peter tells us how this all ends:

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. 1 Peter 2:9-10 (NASB)

The "end" to which all the apostles pointed was not the end of the planet and universe as we know it: it was the end of the old covenant kingdom which was taken away from Israel when it was destroyed and judged in 70 AD!

Finally, on 1 Peter 2:9-10...

See these words, "so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light? It's an allusion to Daniel 12:3...

"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. Daniel 12:3 (NASB)

The work of producing fruit for the kingdom continues to this very day and will continue - as Daniel writes - "forever and ever" because the new covenant kingdom of Christ will endure "for all ages to come." (Daniel 7:18).

We, the "living stones", are a royal priesthood of the new covenant kingdom of Christ - which exists now and forevermore - because the old covenant priesthood was violently disbanded in 70 AD. Forever.

Two ages: Mosaic and Messianic. Two kingdoms: kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Christ. Two covenants: Law and Faith. Two women: Hagar (Israel) and Sarah (the Church.) Two Jerusalems: earthly and heavenly. Two women: idolatrous harlot and heavenly bride. Two mountains: Sinai and Zion. Two temples: earthly and heavenly. All of the old has been swept away for the sake of the new. You can read more about the contrast and comparison of these "twos" in Hebrews and Revelation.

Too long. Done.

 

[Stormcrow]

To recap, in case the thread of prophecy was lost in all of the passages I cited in the OP:

The "doom" to which disbelievers and the disobedient were appointed in 1 Peter 2:4-8:

Is the same "wretched end" the chief priests and Pharisees said would come upon those who killed the landowner's Son (themselves) in Matthew 21:33-45;

Is the same "guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth" that would fall upon that generation in Matthew 23:34-38;

Is the same "vengeance" Luke wrote would "fulfill all that was written" in Luke 21:20-24;

Is the same "vengeance" the souls under the altar are crying out for in Revelation 6:9-11;

Is the same "great tribulation" that would befall Jerusalem in Matthew 24:15-21;

Is the same "pestilence, mourning, and famine" and "burning with fire" in Revelation 18:4-8;

Is the same judgment of Revelation 18:20;

Etc, etc, etc.

And these verses - and many, many more in the New Testament - were all fulfilled in 70 AD, when Jesus Christ - the only one worthy to open the book of judgment against Israel - did so using the armies of Rome to do it; just as the Father had judged Jerusalem and Judah in 586 BC.

 

[Jock]

The Heavenly Jerusalem is sill being built with its living stones.

Of what purpose is the Heavenly Jerusalem when it is completed.


Eph 2:19

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22

In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[Stormcrow]

The Heavenly Jerusalem is sill being built with its living stones.

Of what purpose is the Heavenly Jerusalem when it is completed.


Eph 2:19

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21

In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22

In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

What does your reply really have to do with the original post?

 

[Jock]

What does your reply really have to do with the original post?

Abraham waited for a city built by God before He would inherit a place which is later described as a Heavenly country, but still a country, and it was a land on which he had walked in the past.


Heb 11:8

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

When will this happen?

Jock

 

[Stormcrow]

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

When will this happen?

Already did.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24 (NASB)

 

[Hitch]

Already did.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel. Hebrews 12:22-24 (NASB)

I am shcoked SHOCKED I say that Jock has not responded to this outrage.

Anyone can see that the past tense is used here and the writer took care to name Sion, the city of the living God, and 'Heavenly Jerusalem' so how can you claim this is an accomplished fact??


Errr hmmm ahhhh Jock where are you????

 

[Hitch]

Sad that so much of what passes for christian eschatology is based on ideas directly contrary to divine revelation.

 

[Stormcrow]

Sad that so much of what passes for christian eschatology is based on ideas directly contrary to divine revelation.

Sad but not surprising. Two thousand years ago, the Father revealed Himself in the Son: the epitome of divine revelation. They got that wrong, too. 2

 

[Stormcrow]

I am shcoked SHOCKED I say that Jock has not responded to this outrage.

Here's a little poem for you, Hitch, in honor of the way we are viewed by some here:

I'm a happy little heretic
Sitting at my keys,
Banging out the verses
That they call heresies.

 

[Jock]

Sure the believers of the time had come to the Heavenly Jerusalem above, but they who believe are still coming to that city.

However that city is still being built with its members and will be revealed at the return of Christ.

I gave you the scripture and you can examine the tenses in it,--

Eph 2:20



And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21



In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22



In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


You have not dealt with my question, which is-

Abraham is promised to inherit a Heavenly country which he had walked upon in his lifetime.

He waited for the appearing of this Heavenly City before he would inherit that country.---

Heb 11:8



By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9



By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10



For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Heb 11:13



These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:14



For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
J

 

[Hitch]

Sure the believers of the time had come to the Heavenly Jerusalem above, but they who believe are still coming to that city.

However that city is still being built with its members and will be revealed at the return of Christ.

I gave you the scripture and you can examine the tenses in it,--

Eph 2:20



And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21






For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
J

Aint literalism grand?

 

[Stormcrow]

You have not dealt with my question...

I already did here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=44839&p=684166&viewfull=1#post684166

If and when you actually phrase your next question in the form of a question, I will likely deal with it, too.

 

[Jock]

I already did here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=44839&p=684166&viewfull=1#post684166

If and when you actually phrase your next question in the form of a question, I will likely deal with it, too.

Ok so you can not deal with the fact that a Heavenly City is appear before Abraham is to inherit a country upon which he walked in his day.


Jock

 

[Hitch]

Ok so you can not deal with the fact that a Heavenly City is appear before Abraham is to inherit a country upon which he walked in his day.


Jock

A true believer knows the promise to Abe was fulfilled in the bringing of salvation to Israel and the world.

 

[Jock]

A true believer knows the promise to Abe was fulfilled in the bringing of salvation to Israel and the world.

Wrong.

The reason why do you do not believe God meant what He said, is so you can ignore what He said.


Heb 11:39



And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40






God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Php 3:11



If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12



Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13



Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14



I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Hitch]

Wrong.

The reason why do you do not believe God meant what He said, is so you can ignore what He said.


Heb 11:39



And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40






God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Php 3:11



If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12



Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13



Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14



I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Get a grip .

The 'promise' was fulfilled in the coming of Messiah, obviously those who looked forward to that event received not (the fulfillment*) the promise.

We do not look forward to that event.

* added

 

[Jock]

The promise to Abraham and all the saints since was that they would live in a Heavenly City, reigning over a Holy land in which the spirit of the Lord would cover as the waters cover the sea.

Hebrews ch 11 Zech ch 14.

Jock.

 

[Hitch]

The promise to Abraham and all the saints since was that they would live in a Heavenly City, reigning over a Holy land in which the spirit of the Lord would cover as the waters cover the sea.

Hebrews ch 11 Zech ch 14.

Jock.

This version is a little more specific;


68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

 

[Jock]

This version is a little more specific;


68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

One passage of scripture does not remove the truth of another.

Christ will return and restore all things, only the wicked will perish.


Act 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21


Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Since the world began, God had said this even before the first Kingdom of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden fell down..

Surely you can find it?

The original command never accomplished yet--

Gen 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.



Jock