Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Edward]

Romans 8:10
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness./

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead./

Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead./(KJV)

(Too many specific names to be a parable!!)

 

[Edward]

Maybe I wasn't clear. When I said, "all I ask for is a sound argument from Scripture" I meant to lay out a logical argument from the Scriptures. If we just post individual verse without tying them into a logical argument we usually just get what we see so often that being disputes about what the passages mean. What I am referring to is something like what Paul does in Romans where he goes to the Scriptures and lays out a logical argument for justification by faith.

I did. After each verse, I commented on it to perhaps shed more light in laymans terms. Like in

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:/(KJV)

The scripture makes reference to Gods Spirit and mans spirit in the same verse. "The "Spirit" (Gods Spirit, Holy Spirit, same thing) bears witness with "Mans spirit" (part of our spirit/soul/body) that we are the children of God. What could be more clear that man has a spirit of his own, that is separate and distinctly different than the Spirit of God?

 

[Butch5]

Romans 8:10
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness./

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead./

Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead./(KJV)

(Too many specific names to be a parable!!)

The passage from Luke 16 doesn't say anything about a spirit, it doesn't even use the word. Neither does the John 11 passage. I'll have to look more closely at the Romans 8 passage, however, the translators capitalized Spirit which indicated that they believe it is speaking of the Holy Spirit. The context seems to indicate this also.

 

[Edward]

The passage from Luke 16 doesn't say anything about a spirit, it doesn't even use the word. Neither does the John 11 passage. I'll have to look more closely at the Romans 8 passage, however, the translators capitalized Spirit which indicated that they believe it is speaking of the Holy Spirit. The context seems to indicate this also.

Right, but if Lazarus and the rich man died and were buried (V 22) then how could they be conscious in Abrahams bosom, and thirsty and so forth. They were talking, thirsty, could see, hear...they had all of their senses and were conscious enough to have a conversation, but their bodies were in the grave...
It couldn't have been the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit thirsty and asking for mercy? I don't think so brother!

 

[veryberry]

That's not what Paul taught Timothy (and us):

This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, 20among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme (1 Tim 1:18-20 ESV )
​

I hope you mean 'lose' and not 'loose'.

Yes, I meant 'lose'. I do have a bad habbit of misspelling that word...lol.

 

[Gregg]

While I agree that it refers to the whole of those the Father gave Him, I disagree that it's a reference to the church. Consider Jesus's words in John 17.

[Jn chapter 17 removed by Gregg]

Notice Jesus' words in the past tense, 'those thou gavest me.' Those given to Jesus was a specific group of men for the purpose which God had for them. There is nothing else in the Scriptures about anyone else being given to Christ. None of the apostles speak of believers being given to Christ (except for Jesus word there).

"And I have [present active indicative] other sheep which are not of this fold [Gentles]. I must also lead those, and they will hear [3rd person future active indicative] hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd" (John 10:16).

Jesus had other sheep in His possession as He spoke those words. Why? Because they were given to Him, and He possessed them at the time He was speaking. Jesus said "I have . . ."

Accordingly, there are indeed other instances in Scripture about others being given to Christ, and in His possession at the time He spoke. It is a legitimate interpretation from Jn 6:37, "All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will in no way cast out", to say that He was referring both to His direct audience [mostly Jews] and to a future audience [mostly Gentile].

 

[Gregg]

Gregg,

If we're going to get to the truth of Scripture we're going to have to address "all" of the Scripture that deal with a subject. Several people have posted passages from John using the present tense, yet none of them has addressed the passages I posted that speak of eternal life as happening in the future. In a search for the truth we must reconcile all of these passages.

You have John saying the believe has eternal life and you have Jesus saying that eternal life is in the age to come, how do you reconcile these passages. I've already explained how I do. What I said makes sense and fit the Scriptures. What say you?

Where do I have Jesus saying "that eternal life is in the age to come"? I have certainly not said that it begins in the future, as I have only stated that eternal life begins now for the believer. I think you have been confusing me with someone else in your last couple of responces.

Simply, believers have eternal life, and it never ends. They continue to possess that same eternal life in the future . . . OSAS

 

[Gregg]

(sarcastic)Well apparently the blood of Christ covers all sin except the sin of unbelief. Sin is just to powerful. Guess the grace of God doesn't abound after all. Poor people who got deceived and fell into unbelief has no hope....I mean yea, Christ died for our sins and all, but in reality salvation is all on us(/sarcastic)

Like I said, It is impossible to loose your salvation once you have been justified unto eternal life. God has made it where he himself cannot unjustify once justified without going against his very nature. But, though saved, you can have lose of reward.

Well stated veryberry!

 

[Butch5]

I did. After each verse, I commented on it to perhaps shed more light in laymans terms. Like in

Romans 8:16
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:/(KJV)

The scripture makes reference to Gods Spirit and mans spirit in the same verse. "The "Spirit" (Gods Spirit, Holy Spirit, same thing) bears witness with "Mans spirit" (part of our spirit/soul/body) that we are the children of God. What could be more clear that man has a spirit of his own, that is separate and distinctly different than the Spirit of God?

I can address that but that's not what I was talking about. I understand you're giving me passages of Scripture and your commentary on them. This is what we usually do. What I was getting at when I spoke of making a Biblical case, is going to the Scriptures and laying out a logical argument. We can see Paul do this in Romans 3 and 4 when he makes the case that a man is justified by faith and not the works of the Law.

 

[Butch5]

Where do I have Jesus saying "that eternal life is in the age to come"? I have certainly not said that it begins in the future, as I have only stated that eternal life begins now for the believer. I think you have been confusing me with someone else in your last couple of responces.

Simply, believers have eternal life, and it never ends. They continue to possess that same eternal life in the future . . . OSAS

Hi Gregg, I didn't say you have Jesus saying that. Jesus did say that eternal life is in the age to come. Here's the problem as I see it. Some have posted John saying we have (present tense) eternal life now. However, Jesus said eternal life is in the age to come. If we are to come to the truth of Scripture we need to reconcile these passages. So, the question is how do we reconcile these passages?

 

[Butch5]

"And I have [present active indicative] other sheep which are not of this fold [Gentles]. I must also lead those, and they will hear [3rd person future active indicative] hear My voice; and there will be one flock, one Shepherd" (John 10:16).

Jesus had other sheep in His possession as He spoke those words. Why? Because they were given to Him, and He possessed them at the time He was speaking. Jesus said "I have . . ."

Accordingly, there are indeed other instances in Scripture about others being given to Christ, and in His possession at the time He spoke. It is a legitimate interpretation from Jn 6:37, "All that the Father gives to Me shall come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will in no way cast out", to say that He was referring both to His direct audience [mostly Jews] and to a future audience [mostly Gentile].

Hi Gregg,

I have to disagree. Firstly, the other sheep are not defined, to say they are Gentiles is speculation. Is it possible that they are Gentiles, Maybe. However, I think it's doubtful since Jesus said that He had only come to the Jews. He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[Butch5]

Right, but if Lazarus and the rich man died and were buried (V 22) then how could they be conscious in Abrahams bosom, and thirsty and so forth. They were talking, thirsty, could see, hear...they had all of their senses and were conscious enough to have a conversation, but their bodies were in the grave...
It couldn't have been the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit thirsty and asking for mercy? I don't think so brother!

The reference to the Holy Spirit was a Romans not the Luke passage.

27 And they are laid with the giants that fell of old, who went down to Hades with their weapons of war: and they laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities were upon their bones, because they terrified all men during their life. (Eze 32:27 LXE)

Do people take their weapons of war to the place you believe the rich man went. Or, is this passage talking about the giants of old being buried with their weapons of war?

14 I will deliver them out of the power of Hades, and will redeem them from death: where is thy <1> penalty, O death? <2> O Hades, where is thy sting? (Hos 13:14 LXE)

Do people get delivered from that place you believe the rich man went to, or is this passage speaking of being delivered from the grave?

13 For if I remain, Hades is my habitation: and my bed has been made in darkness. (Job 17:13 LXE)

Was Job expecting to go to the place you believe the rich man went. or is this a reference to the grave?

10 Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do, do with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Hades wither thou goest. (Ecc 9:10 LXE)

The word device here is translated from a Greek word that means reasoning. According to Solomon there is no reasoning in Hades. If that's the case how did the rich man reason with Abraham?

18 For she has fixed her house near death, and guided her wheels near Hades with the giants. (Pro 2:18 LXE)

How does one guide their wheels towards the place you believe the rich man went?

48 {088:48} What man is there who shall live, and not see death? shall any one deliver his soul from the hand of Hades? Pause. (Psa 89:48 LXE)

This passage indicate that all men go into Hades, do all men go to the place where you believe the rich man went.

15 {054:15} Let death come upon them, and let them go down alive into Hades, for iniquity is in their dwellings, in the midst of them. (Psa 55:15 LXE)

According to this passage people can go alive into Hades, can living people go to the place where you believed the rich man went.

LXE Genesis 37:35 {037:34} And all his sons and his daughters gathered themselves together, and came to comfort him; but he would not be comforted, saying, I will go down to my son mourning to Hades; and his father wept for him. (Gen 37:35 LXE)

Did Jacob expect to go to the place you believe the rich man went? He thought Joseph was dead, If Hades is a you said, of torment, did Jacob expect his son to be there?

There are more but I think this shows that Hades is the grave.

If Hades is the grave as these passages indicate it's no surprise to see Lazarus and the rich man there.

 

[Edward]

The reference to the Holy Spirit was a Romans not the Luke passage.

27 And they are laid with the giants that fell of old, who went down to Hades with their weapons of war: and they laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities were upon their bones, because they terrified all men during their life. (Eze 32:27 LXE)

Do people take their weapons of war to the place you believe the rich man went. Or, is this passage talking about the giants of old being buried with their weapons of war?

14 I will deliver them out of the power of Hades, and will redeem them from death: where is thy <1> penalty, O death? <2> O Hades, where is thy sting? (Hos 13:14 LXE)

Do people get delivered from that place you believe the rich man went to, or is this passage speaking of being delivered from the grave?

13 For if I remain, Hades is my habitation: and my bed has been made in darkness. (Job 17:13 LXE)

Was Job expecting to go to the place you believe the rich man went. or is this a reference to the grave?

10 Whatsoever thine hand shall find to do, do with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Hades wither thou goest. (Ecc 9:10 LXE)

The word device here is translated from a Greek word that means reasoning. According to Solomon there is no reasoning in Hades. If that's the case how did the rich man reason with Abraham?

18 For she has fixed her house near death, and guided her wheels near Hades with the giants. (Pro 2:18 LXE)

How does one guide their wheels towards the place you believe the rich man went?

48 {088:48} What man is there who shall live, and not see death? shall any one deliver his soul from the hand of Hades? Pause. (Psa 89:48 LXE)

This passage indicate that all men go into Hades, do all men go to the place where you believe the rich man went.

15 {054:15} Let death come upon them, and let them go down alive into Hades, for iniquity is in their dwellings, in the midst of them. (Psa 55:15 LXE)

According to this passage people can go alive into Hades, can living people go to the place where you believed the rich man went.

LXE Genesis 37:35 {037:34} And all his sons and his daughters gathered themselves together, and came to comfort him; but he would not be comforted, saying, I will go down to my son mourning to Hades; and his father wept for him. (Gen 37:35 LXE)

Did Jacob expect to go to the place you believe the rich man went? He thought Joseph was dead, If Hades is a you said, of torment, did Jacob expect his son to be there?

There are more but I think this shows that Hades is the grave.

If Hades is the grave as these passages indicate it's no surprise to see Lazarus and the rich man there.

Give me a day or so to look at these passages more closely. i don't want to answer too quickly.

 

[Gregg]

Hi Gregg, I didn't say you have Jesus saying that. Jesus did say that eternal life is in the age to come. Here's the problem as I see it. Some have posted John saying we have (present tense) eternal life now. However, Jesus said eternal life is in the age to come. If we are to come to the truth of Scripture we need to reconcile these passages. So, the question is how do we reconcile these passages?

First of all, all Scripture is already reconciled. It is that we need to see [and perceive] it from a proper vantage point. Eternal life for believer begins in the present and continues into the age to come.

 

[Gregg]

Hi Gregg,

I have to disagree. Firstly, the other sheep are not defined, to say they are Gentiles is speculation. Is it possible that they are Gentiles, Maybe. However, I think it's doubtful since Jesus said that He had only come to the Jews. He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Gentiles lived in Israel at the time of Christ - and He ministered to them: the Roman soldier(s), the Greek Syro-phenocian woman in Mk 7:26, and the Samaritan woman [perhaps part Gentile] in Jn 4, etc.

 

[Butch5]

First of all, all Scripture is already reconciled. It is that we need to see [and perceive] it from a proper vantage point. Eternal life for believer begins in the present and continues into the age to come.

Gregg,

What I meant was that we have to reconcile all of the passages with out theology. If eternal life begins in the present, one, why do believers die and two how do you reconcile that statement with these words from Jesus?

29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." (Luk 18:29-30 NKJ

In this passage Jesus contrasts the things believers will receive in this present age and the age to come. Eternal life is in the age to come according to this statement from Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

Gentiles lived in Israel at the time of Christ - and He ministered to them: the Roman soldier(s), the Greek Syro-phenocian woman in Mk 7:26, and the Samaritan woman [perhaps part Gentile] in Jn 4, etc.

I don't disagree with that. However, as I said in the other post, the other fold is not identified. All we can do is speculate who they are, there is no way we can say with certainty that it is any particular group.

 

[gr8grace3]

1 John 5:13~~These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

"you have"~~

echeteἔχετεyou haveV-PIA-2P

Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Present.......Continuous action in the present.
Mood: Indicative.......This mood is a mood of certainty with respect to the completion of the action of the verb
Voice: Active

Person: 2nd Person
Number: Plural



(John 3:36) “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

"Hath"
echó: to have, hold
Original Word: ἔχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: echó
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
Short Definition: I have, hold, possess
Definition: I have, hold, possess.

Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Present.......Continuous action in the present.
Mood: Indicative.......This mood is a mood of certainty with respect to the completion of the action of the verb
Voice: Active

Person: 3rd Person
Number: Singular

 

[Butch5]

1 John 5:13~~These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

"you have"~~

echeteἔχετεyou haveV-PIA-2P

Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Present.......Continuous action in the present.
Mood: Indicative.......This mood is a mood of certainty with respect to the completion of the action of the verb
Voice: Active

Person: 2nd Person
Number: Plural



(John 3:36) “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

"Hath"
echó: to have, hold
Original Word: ἔχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: echó
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
Short Definition: I have, hold, possess
Definition: I have, hold, possess.

Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Present.......Continuous action in the present.
Mood: Indicative.......This mood is a mood of certainty with respect to the completion of the action of the verb
Voice: Active

Person: 3rd Person
Number: Singular

Hi Gr8grace,

I'm aware of that, however, that must be reconciled with the other passages. Jesus said that eternal life is received in the age to come.

 

[chessman]

Give me a day or so to look at these passages more closely. i don't want to answer too quickly.

If you have a chance, will you also post the Scripture/verse that says; Truly, Truly I say unto you that I will never use real names in a parable?

(Too many specific names to be a parable!!)