Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Gregg]

Read the passage. What gets built on the foundation of Christ are believers in Christ, not your personal works of obedience.

Paul is saying the workers who build on the foundation of the household (the building) of Christ "must be careful how they build" (1 Corinthians 3:10 NASB). If a worker builds using perishable materials (wood, hay, straw, stubble, etc.) those parts of the building of Christ will not pass through the coming Judgment, but will be burned up. But if a worker puts people into place on the foundation of Christ made of precious jewels, gold, silver, etc. they will survive the fire of the coming Judgment.

So he's saying it's important that workers on the building, like himself, build the temple of Christ in a way that will result in reward for the builder. If he, or anybody else, builds people up into a false gospel, that work--those people--will be shown for what it is because it will perish in the Judgment.

The point being, what reward is there for Paul to build the Corinthians up with a false gospel into a building on the foundation of Christ that is perishable and which will not survive the Judgment? None, of course. He will have nothing to show for his labor. His labor will have been in vain. His work--the Corinthians--will be burned up at the Judgment and he'll have no crown of believers placed into the building of Christ in the kingdom for him to glory in.

The passage is NOT about disobedient, but saved people having their works burned up and not stored up for them because those works, or lack of works, did not pass some test of authenticity, while they themselves remain saved and enter kingdom minus any praiseworthy obediences.

"1 Are you not my work in the Lord?" (1 Corinthians 3:1 NASB)

"1 Therefore, my beloved brethren whom I long to see, my joy and crown..." (Philippians 4:1 NASB)

"19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20 For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB)

Especially note this passage:

"15 ...so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. " (1 Thessalonians 2:19 NASB)


Our responsibility as believers is to prove ourselves to be a blameless and innocent children of God. We do that by being blameless and innocent. If you don't do that the person who led you to Christ will have no reward to show for his labor in placing you in the building of Christ because you will not survive the fire of the Judgment to come because you were not blameless and innocent, not "holding fast the word of life".

You have to hold fast to what you have in this life through living a blameless life (not sinless, but blameless, covered by the blood of Christ) in order to be saved on the Day of Judgment, and so the person who led you to Christ will have reward for his labor in the gospel. But OSAS says that these rewards for service are for doing obedient things with the right attitude and motivation, and that is what gets burned up at the Judgment for believers if they were not done for the right reason, while you remain saved. It's easy to see from the passage, and other supporting passages that is NOT what Paul is teaching.

1 Corinthians 3:8-15 is not a OSAS passage.

Your commentary contradicts your commentary.

"If the work of anyone which he built remains, he will receive a reward. If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire" (1Cor 3:14-15 LITV).

 

[Danus]

Do you think non-OSAS is saying something terribly different than this?

Non-OSAS says you have the responsibility to continue to believe in Christ, just as you had the responsibility to first believe in him. It's the exact same believing. Just a continuation of that believing. But I'm told that the responsibility to continue to believe is an evil work of my flesh....even though it's the exact same, unbroken, uninterrupted believing I did to get saved in the first place.



My plan is to believe. Believing is manifested in obedience. To think that one can purposely be disobedient and think they're continuing in the belief that saves, they are deceived. This is James' point. If you think believing unto justification can mean not obeying God then you are embracing a faith that can not save you. And if anyone thinks he's talking about just kingdom reward, and not salvation, remember the context is justification.



"44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..." (John 6:43 NASB)

What you have to explain is how this means I come automatically and I have no choice whether to listen and respond to the call, or not. John himself explains in 1 John 5:9-10 NASB how there are those who hear the testimony of the Holy Spirit, but don't respond, and who are actually calling the Holy Spirit a liar by not to believing.



There are those who simply refuse the power of the Holy Spirit to believe and be saved. That doesn't mean man saves himself. It simply means they don't want righteousness and as a result lose out on the capacity to be empowered to trust in Christ and live in righteousness. They will be fruitless--that fruitlessness being the evidence of their rejection and denial of Christ. They will be burned, not saved. It doesn't matter if they believed before and were fruitful. What matters is they forfeited that which can, or did, make them fruitful for the Master and arrived at the Judgment without any fruit (no oil, no increase in talents...).



No. I simply want to take full advantage of it. That is man's responsibility. Those who don't will show their rejection of that grace by the fact that they are fruitless. But OSAS says you don't have to be fruitful to be saved. It means nothing in regard to the grace you received. You will only lose reward. But the Bible says if you are fruitless you have rejected the grace of God's forgiveness somewhere along the line. That's a bad thing. You can't be saved without God's forgiveness. That's the only way to be saved. Fruitfulness is how we know if you are clinging to the only way a person can be saved--the forgiveness of their sins. You have to be found clinging to and trusting in that forgiveness on the Day of Wrath to be saved by that forgiveness.



They forgot the grace they had received, and as a result trampled it underfoot treating it as an unholy thing. Their fruitlessness being the evidence of that. Peter says purposely being fruitful means remembering the forgiveness you have received. OSAS says I don't have to be fruitful in a remembering of the grace I have received. I'll be saved nonetheless. It says fruitless people will NOT be thrown into the furnace, even though the Bible plainly says they will.



Some soil is such that it will support life seeded in/on it, and watered. Other soil will not. That is the difference. The Bible plainly teaches this.

The grace of God is the seed, and the watering, not the soil. The seed is spread everywhere in the world. The soil is the fundamental potential of the heart for the love, or hatred for righteousness in a person. You're essentially saying God purposely determines who will have soil 1,2,3, and 4 ahead of time by his own sovereign design. I say the potential of the soil realized in any one person when it gets planted and watered is based on the person themselves, not on what potential of soil God restricted them to. If he did determine soil types by design then that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for him to say he desires all men to be saved and come to the truth. IMPOSSIBLE.



Surely you can see now this is not about improving on God's grace. It's simply being of a type of soil that God's grace will thrive in, and embrace, bringing that grace to fruition in all the fruit of the Spirit. Some soil is simply not going to do that. It will not support righteous life planted in it for the reasons given in the parable--love of other things, trials and tribulations, etc. If we don't purposely bother to nurture what God has planted in us we are showing what kind of soil we really are and if that soil will be burned in the end, or not (Hebrews 6:7-8 NASB).

Then why are you placing any value on your choice for God, when your choice for God is worth nothing in terms of salvation?

If you're going to say man chooses to be save or he does not choose to be saved, then you're giving man this option and again, placing salvation on man, not on Christ. Then saying you can just walk away from it. If you can walk away from salvation by your choice then that salvation is worthless.

If you can loose your salvation, then your salvation is worthless to begin with. Its' of no value since it can be so easily lost. ....That's your Hope? That's the strength of your faith? Your only assurance is what you do, and not what God has done for you. That's the message you have? .... I sure hope that you, by your own effort, take full "advantage" of what Jesus Christ has done for you, because apparently what He has done is not enough, and your going to take advantage of it, and somehow make it even more that what it is by producing fruit yourself, even though Gods word say He's the one do that in you...yet you think your doing it.

Your placing the effectiveness of salvation on yourself. I prefer to place it where it belongs, on Christ, and I honer Him and Love Him for what He has done for me, and I live for Him, by Him, by His mercy and grace and the Love He has poured out for me because I know when I face God I do not deserve it. I did not do it, or effect it, or keep it, nor can I. It is Him and Him alone.

 

[JLB]

And still do. Its been asked, what verse clearly shows that a believer who stops having faith is Condemned, judged and thrown in the Lake of Fire?

Or specifically says," For this loss of faith you have lost your salvation."

Or specifically says," you have stopped overcoming and have lost your salvation."

It's been asked, what verse shows you can stop believing and fall away, and still be saved.

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith

... this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith


Stop having faith, and you stop overcoming!

Without faith, it is impossible to please God!

WHATEVER is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23


He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." ' Revelation 2:11

And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- Revelation 2:26


... this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33


These are promises, and warnings from Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

It's been asked, what verse shows you can stop believing and fall away, and still be saved.

4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith

... this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith


Stop having faith, and you stop overcoming!

Without faith, it is impossible to please God!

WHATEVER is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23


He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." ' Revelation 2:11

And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations-- Revelation 2:26


... this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33


These are promises, and warnings from Jesus Christ.


JLB

Still no lake of fire for a believer, or loss of salvation stated.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." ' Revelation 2:11

Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5 NASB

 

[JLB]

Still no lake of fire for a believer, or loss of salvation stated.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." ' Revelation 2:11

Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5 NASB

Stop believing Jesus is the Son of God, you are no longer overcoming the world.

JLB

 

[chessman]

Not. Jesus failed to mention "your points", so that's a good clue that they aren't germane to His point. I accept His points, not the points of others.

...
Totally off the wall. The plants had no root because of moisture, not anything to do with light.

Wrong. Moisture AND sunlight were their problem.

Mark 4:6 And when the sun rose it was scorched, and because ...
​

It's a point some miss.

​

 

[DRS81]

Stop believing Jesus is the Son of God, you are no longer overcoming the world.

JLB

It's impossible for a born again christian to stop believing Jesus is the Son of God. Impossible JLB.

Victory is already complete. You're not overcoming the world, Jesus overcame the world FOR YOU.

John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

 

[gr8grace3]

Stop believing Jesus is the Son of God, you are no longer overcoming the world.

JLB

I agree with you on that. In Fact I believe the majority of believers are not overcoming the world in their experiential sanctification.

What is not stated in scripture is......Stop believing and you lose salvation,lose eternal life and are condemned to the eternal lake of fire.

 

[JLB]

It's impossible for a born again christian to stop believing Jesus is the Son of God. Impossible JLB.

Victory is already complete. You're not overcoming the world, Jesus overcame the world FOR YOU.

John 16:33 "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

When you show the scripture that says its impossible for a born again Christian to stop believing then your point will be valid.

So far all we have seen from you is your opinion.

Jesus over came the world by obeying His Father.

We overcome the world the same way, our faith.

Stop having faith in Jesus and you will stop overcoming.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree with you on that. In Fact I believe the majority of believers are not overcoming the world in their experiential sanctification.

What is not stated in scripture is......Stop believing and you lose salvation,lose eternal life and are condemned to the eternal lake of fire.

What is stated is if you believe for a while then fall away, you will not produce fruit.

Still no lake of fire for a believer, or loss of salvation stated.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." ' Revelation 2:11

Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5 NASB

What is the point Jesus makes by saying - he who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death ?

If those who overcome avoid the second death, what happens to those who do not overcome?

What conclusion should we draw from these words?

JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

What is stated is if you believe for a while then fall away, you will not produce fruit.


What is the point Jesus makes by saying - he who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death ?

If those who overcome avoid the second death, what happens to those who do not overcome?

What conclusion should we draw from these words?

JLB

It is the difference between positional truth and experiential truth for the believer.

We overcome this world in our position in Christ, because He overcame the world. This is what becomes soooooooo confusing in this debate. In our progressive/experiential position we are still in this world and have to grow in grace and knowledge in order to personally/spiritually grow while we are alive.....to gain those rewards/blessings that the Lord WANTS to bless us with.

We have to discern what verses are talking about salvation and what verses are talking about the believers Spiritual growth.

And thank you JLB, an honest question that looks as if you are really curious and wondering.

 

[gr8grace3]

Just a reminder, because I can even lose sight of this. This whole debate depends on the Character and nature of our God. And loss of salvation attacks and demeans Gods character and nature.

Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU," Heb 13:5 NASB

If I,Being a man, told a friend or a child that ,"I will never leave you nor forsake you." and they did something like,ohhh, lets say left me. And I left them, I would be called a liar by anyone on this planet.

Gods Character and nature is at stake in this debate, and loss of salvation is a direct attack on Him and His Character.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
None of the things you list will save you. They AREN'T necessary FOR salvation, but they ARE necessary for spiritual growth of the believer. That's the difference that you seem not to understand.

So now Christ has become a commodity and not a person when you say it's necessary only for spiritaul growth.

Nothing in your response was relevant to what I said. What in the world are you talking about??

Brother these are not only necessary for spiritual growth but also to know Him personallly and there are no other ways where you can know Christ other than the things which I have mentioned.

Why would anyone think that spiritual growth doesn't involve a deeper knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ? Of course it does.

Paul never said I want to grow spirtually but he did say that I want to know Christ more and more and the only thing he wanted to know was Christ.

Same thing, obviously. btw, he wanted all his audiences to grow spiritually. Rom 12:1,2.

 

[FreeGrace]

I never said that we need prayer, bible-reading and fellowship in order to be saved. All I said is they can't be excluded. Simple logic when you read the bible how can you escape the truth where it's written clearly that By grace through faith you are saved.

I don't. And I didn't, either. Apparently you're not understanding much of what I post.

Why do you want to exclude things which bring Christ closer to you.

I don't. I can't imagine why you think I do.

Why do you want to make it as an option and compromise the sacrifices of the apostles and early believers who fought with their lives to preserve the word of God so that you can read it and known more of Him.

I'm not making anything an option. You're very confused.

Salvation is by grace through faith. Then, the new believer needs to grow up spiritually. That's where your list comes in.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's been asked, what verse shows you can stop believing and fall away, and still be saved.

The better question is this: what verse actually SAYS that those who cease to believe cease to be saved. Please share.

 

[FreeGrace]

Stop believing Jesus is the Son of God, you are no longer overcoming the world.

JLB

Yet, there is nothing in Scripture that says that those who don't overcome the world lose their salvation. So why should anyone believe that claim?

 

[FreeGrace]

Wrong. Moisture AND sunlight were their problem.

Mark 4:6 And when the sun rose it was scorched, and because …​

And because…what? The plant had no root.
​

It's a point some miss.

How come Jesus never said that moisture and sunlight were their problem? And why are trying so hard to add to Jesus' parable?

 

[FreeGrace]

When you show the scripture that says its impossible for a born again Christian to stop believing then your point will be valid.

The same applies to your view: when you show the Scripture that says when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. It's that simple.

So far all we have seen from you is your opinion.

So far, all I've seen is your opinion. No verses to back up your opinion.

[QUOET]Jesus over came the world by obeying His Father.

We overcome the world the same way, our faith.

Stop having faith in Jesus and you will stop overcoming.JLB[/QUOTE]
Yet, there is no equivalence to overcoming the world and being saved. The overcomers represent believers who have experiential sanctification, or spiritual growth. Many believers have not become overcomers.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is the difference between positional truth and experiential truth for the believer.

We overcome this world in our position in Christ, because He overcame the world. This is what becomes soooooooo confusing in this debate. In our progressive/experiential position we are still in this world and have to grow in grace and knowledge in order to personally/spiritually grow while we are alive.....to gain those rewards/blessings that the Lord WANTS to bless us with.

We have to discern what verses are talking about salvation and what verses are talking about the believers Spiritual growth.

And thank you JLB, an honest question that looks as if you are really curious and wondering.

Also, Scripture deals with overcoming in 2 separate ways.

First, Jesus claims that He has overcome the world - Jn 16:33. Those who are in Christ have positionally overcome the world as well.

1 Jn 5:4,5 indicate that believers have overcome the world through faith. This overcoming is positional.

Then, in Rev 2:7,11,17,26, 3:5,12,31 and 21:7, overcoming is linked to works or deeds. This refers to overcoming in the sense of our actions, unlike positional overcoming, which is based upon Christ, who overcame the world by His death for the sins of all of humanity.

 

[gr8grace3]

The same applies to your view: when you show the Scripture that says when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. It's that simple.


So far, all I've seen is your opinion. No verses to back up your opinion.

[QUOET]Jesus over came the world by obeying His Father.

We overcome the world the same way, our faith.

Stop having faith in Jesus and you will stop overcoming.JLB

Yet, there is no equivalence to overcoming the world and being saved. The overcomers represent believers who have experiential sanctification, or spiritual growth. Many believers have not become overcomers.[/QUOTE]


I need to quit. I read your stuff and I look like an amateur. Correct me along the way Brother.