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netchaplain

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One may have an appearance to obey the Lord Jesus (Jhn 14:23, 24), but it is the test of time that will determine its genuineness, for it will never cease. The Lord Jesus said, “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Mat 24:13). In other words, only whosoever is saved will endure unto the end, as those who are not reborn (saved) will eventually affirm “they were not of us” (1Jo 2:19; 2Ti 3:9, 13; Heb 10:39; also Num 32:23).

The primary manifestation of hypocritical love to God is the absence of love to others (Jhn 13:35)—especially when this concerns our “brother,” which are those within “the household of faith” (Gal 6:10; Eph 2:19; 1Jhn 4:20, 21; also Mat 12:50). Walking in practical love develops from first having the desire to love, which is an inherent ability solely from the Spirit at rebirth (Gal 5:22), using the implanted “life” and “nature” of Christ (Col 3:4, 10; 2Pe 1:4).

It is the ongoing desire to love others that manifests the presence of the indwelling Spirit the most, and as this desire grows within we eventually begin practicing more all the time God’s love to others (again and very important, esp. when it concerns the saved). I believe the well-known acronym JOY describes Scripture’s definition for God’s love best: Jesus, others, then you, i.e. we put Jesus first when we put others before us. This is clearly demonstrated by passages such as Phl 2:3, 4; Ro 12:10; Eph 4:2; 5:21. I’ve found that being concerned how we should respond to others more than being concerned how others respond to us aids well in supporting a more consistent adherence to these truths.

Since the works deriving from walking in the Spirit cannot be practiced one-hundred percent of the time (due to the ongoing indwelling of the “old man”), I believe God’s greatest work in us rests in the retaining of this desire to love (which produces continued growth in it), which then is in us—the crux of His “work” (Phl 2:13). May God give us to remember to keep a constant check on the intentions of our actions, that we may, more all the time, be love-centered; without which our testimony cannot be God-glorifying (Jhn 15:8). God be blessed above all!
 
One may have an appearance to obey the Lord Jesus (Jhn 14:23, 24), but it is the test of time that will determine its genuineness, for it will never cease. The Lord Jesus said, “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Mat 24:13). In other words, only whosoever is saved will endure unto the end, as those who are not reborn (saved) will eventually affirm “they were not of us” (1Jo 2:19; 2Ti 3:9, 13; Heb 10:39; also Num 32:23).
That is correct, We will know if we are in faith, and endure until the end based on how we respond to situations and circumstances in this life. We have to look at everything with spiritual eyes, if we stop doing this then our faith will start to have faults.
 
That is correct, We will know if we are in faith, and endure until the end based on how we respond to situations and circumstances in this life. We have to look at everything with spiritual eyes, if we stop doing this then our faith will start to have faults.
I'm somewhat in agreement here, but it's my understanding that faith can be weak but never fails - Luk 22:32 (not that you mean this), and is always growing in strength. If faith grows not, it's not faith, because it ever brings us forward.
 
One may have an appearance to obey the Lord Jesus (Jhn 14:23, 24), but it is the test of time that will determine its genuineness, for it will never cease. The Lord Jesus said, “He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Mat 24:13). In other words, only whosoever is saved will endure unto the end, as those who are not reborn (saved) will eventually affirm “they were not of us” (1Jo 2:19; 2Ti 3:9, 13; Heb 10:39; also Num 32:23).

1) Jesus said "“He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”

2) You said "only whosoever is saved will endure unto the end,....”

The two statements are not the same.
 
1) Jesus said "“He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”

2) You said "only whosoever is saved will endure unto the end,....”

The two statements are not the same.
They don't seem the same the way I wrote it and is why I wrote it that way, to explain that the sense of the phrase is not saying endure then be saved, but that the saved will endure to show their saved. One who is only professing faith does not have the Spirit to show it because he will eventually and permanently discontinue the hypocrisy.
 
They don't seem the same the way I wrote it and is why I wrote it that way, to explain that the sense of the phrase is not saying endure then be saved, but that the saved will endure to show their saved. One who is only professing faith does not have the Spirit to show it because he will eventually and permanently discontinue the hypocrisy.
The way Jesus said it, He made salvation conditional upon one enduring, that being those who endure will be saved, those that do not endure will not be saved.

Broader context of Mt 24 is to disciples who will be at Jerusalem before the time of the Roman siege (about 70AD):
Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name’s sake.
And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved
.

"But" being a contrasting word between those that stumble, hate one another, that go astray, whose love wax cold and those who endure.

In the limited commission to the Apostles, Jesus said to them in Mt 10:21-22;
"And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved
."

"to the end" refers to the hatred, persecution would be unto death, hence the endurance must be to the end of life. The present tense of 'endureth' shows it must be ongoing, sustained till the end of life.

2 Tim 2:12 "if (conditional word) we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us:"

Enduring is not a certain, unconditional guarantee for the Christian.
 
To me, the condition is that showing one is saved by continuing (I no longer use the phrase "enduring unto the end" concerning this issue because it is in relation to the tribulation period - Mat 24:13; Mar 13:13).
Mt 24:13 the context is about Jerusalem being under siege and destroyed by the Roman army 70AD. Those Christians in Jerusalem at the time those signs occurred before the siege, if they maintained their faith/endured, they escaped the destruction. Symbolic of escaping the wrath of God by maintaining faith in Christ.
 
Mt 24:13 the context is about Jerusalem being under siege and destroyed by the Roman army 70AD. Those Christians in Jerusalem at the time those signs occurred before the siege, if they maintained their faith/endured, they escaped the destruction. Symbolic of escaping the wrath of God by maintaining faith in Christ.
The Chapter describes a specific global event, which will not only concern unbelieving Jews but the "whole world." Believers always have to endure general Christ-related tribulations (Act 14:22).
 
The Chapter describes a specific global event, which will not only concern unbelieving Jews but the "whole world." Believers always have to endure general Christ-related tribulations (Act 14:22).
Matt 24:1-2 specifically speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem which did happen in about 70AD. Those that endured (Mt 24:9-13) would be the ones to escape. I think it was Josephus who said all Christians did escape this destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army. Again, this being symbolic of escaping the wrath of God by maintaining faith in Christ.
 
The way Jesus said it, He made salvation conditional upon one enduring, that being those who endure will be saved, those that do not endure will not be saved.

Only those who really love him receive the Spirit.

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you."

1 Corinthians 13:7-8 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

I want to focus on the definition of LOVE per the Bible. Love always perseveres according to the Bible. So those of us who truly love God will persevere and especially since he has given us the Spirit of truth to be will us forever!
 
Matt 24:1-2 specifically speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem which did happen in about 70AD. Those that endured (Mt 24:9-13) would be the ones to escape. I think it was Josephus who said all Christians did escape this destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman army. Again, this being symbolic of escaping the wrath of God by maintaining faith in Christ.
The annihilation of Judaism is clearly seen within the first and second verses, and the Lord begins to (after addressing their question concerning the Temple) declare occurrences after that and up to the time that "they (everyone on earth) shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (as He was seen going to heaven - Act 1:11); then "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat 24:30,
31). Unless this is not to what you're referring.

The rest of the Chapter has much debate relating to its exact references. Regardless of what we believe concerning the Chapter, my point is that those who believe cannot return to unbelief if you truly believe. To me it's not as if one needs to be told to keep believing (which is nowhere indicated in Scripture). It stands to reason that genuine believers will never cease to believe, thus the enduring doesn't produce faith but rather is manifesting one has a genuine faith all along.
 
The annihilation of Judaism is clearly seen within the first and second verses, and the Lord begins to (after addressing their question concerning the Temple) declare occurrences after that and up to the time that "they (everyone on earth) shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (as He was seen going to heaven - Act 1:11); then "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Mat 24:30,
31). Unless this is not to what you're referring.

The rest of the Chapter has much debate relating to its exact references. Regardless of what we believe concerning the Chapter, my point is that those who believe cannot return to unbelief if you truly believe. To me it's not as if one needs to be told to keep believing (which is nowhere indicated in Scripture). It stands to reason that genuine believers will never cease to believe, thus the enduring doesn't produce faith but rather is manifesting one has a genuine faith all along.

You posted "those who believe cannot return to unbelief if you truly believe"

Then why all the verses that warn the Christian about falling into unbelief if such were not possible?

The book of Hebrews for example is filled with warnings to Hebrew Christians about becoming apostates, backsliding into Judaism away from Christianity, Heb 2:1-4; Heb 3:12; Heb 4:1,11.
 
You posted "those who believe cannot return to unbelief if you truly believe"

Then why all the verses that warn the Christian about falling into unbelief if such were not possible?

The book of Hebrews for example is filled with warnings to Hebrew Christians about becoming apostates, backsliding into Judaism away from Christianity, Heb 2:1-4; Heb 3:12; Heb 4:1,11.
Ugh, I think I need to start a conversation about the path one travels in their faith journey. There is so much disagreeing with believers falling into unbelief. I think if you haven't been given total revelation, you are in danger of being one of those who could start to not believe. Maybe those verses are for those who haven't been sanctified.

Even in the book of Revelation........the warnings to the churches rebuke them for their handling of the truth and misguiding people. The only church that has it right is Philadelphia. Revelation 3:7 "To the angel of the church of Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

It goes on to say we have little strength......like a remnant. Very tiny.
 
You posted "those who believe cannot return to unbelief if you truly believe"

Then why all the verses that warn the Christian about falling into unbelief if such were not possible?

The book of Hebrews for example is filled with warnings to Hebrew Christians about becoming apostates, backsliding into Judaism away from Christianity, Heb 2:1-4
These passages describes how much more important what Jesus spoke concerning the grace of salvation is compared to what angels spoke (Exo 3:2 – everything God did in the OT was by angels) concerning the condemnation of the Law. Then 2 suppositions are presented (not accusations), i.e. “How shall we escape” and “if we neglect.” “We” intends all who would “neglect salvation,” e.g. by not believing it, like many of the Israelites did through disobedience (Act 7:53), which was often due to unbelief (all were disobedient but many remained in unbelief); and this after the learning of the Law (Decalogue, where the Law began), which God delivered by an angel (“word spoken by angels” – He 2:2).

"An evil heart of unbelief" exists in all, and is here exhorted not to continue in it or let it rule or dominate to keep you in unbelief. It also must be realized that this was given to them when just learning of the Gospel, so the many warnings or admonishments in Scripture were due to many believers being vulnerable in their walk, all being novices in the faith at that time. If we notice, nearly all of the NT's instructions were to keep converted Jews aware of the forces of oppositions that repeatedly made attempts to distract and confuse them, which could never succeed, they being Spirit-indwelt.

“Lest any of you should seem to come short of it;” either of the promise, or the rest promised; which if understood of the heavenly glory, the sense is, that though true believers shall not come short of that, yet they may "seem" to others to do so; and therefore should be careful of their lives and conversations, that they might not seem to come short; and this they should do, for the glory of God, the honor of Christ and his Gospel, and the good of others; but if the rest, and the promise of it, intend the Gospel and its dispensation, the meaning is, that saints should be concerned so to behave, that they might not seem to fail of the doctrine of the grace of God, and to be disappointed of that rest and peace promised in it." Gill

Heb 4:11
"Lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief;" into the sin of unbelief, and into punishment through it, as the Israelites did; who sinning, their carcasses fell in the wilderness, and they entered not into God's rest, as he swore they should not: true believers may fall into sin, and from a degree of the exercise of grace, and of the steadfastness of the Gospel; but they cannot finally and totally fall away, because they are kept by the power of God; yet they may so fall, as to come short, or at least seem to come short of enjoying the rest and peace of the Gospel state: external professors may fall from the Gospel, and the religion they have professed, and come short of the glory they expected; and fall into just and deserved punishment, in like manner as the unbelieving Israelites did." Gill

I know some do not like Gill but I sited him in the interest of being most explanatory.
 
These passages describes how much more important what Jesus spoke concerning the grace of salvation is compared to what angels spoke (Exo 3:2 – everything God did in the OT was by angels) concerning the condemnation of the Law. Then 2 suppositions are presented (not accusations), i.e. “How shall we escape” and “if we neglect.” “We” intends all who would “neglect salvation,” e.g. by not believing it, like many of the Israelites did through disobedience (Act 7:53), which was often due to unbelief (all were disobedient but many remained in unbelief); and this after the learning of the Law (Decalogue, where the Law began), which God delivered by an angel (“word spoken by angels” – He 2:2).

Heb 2:1 "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip."

The "we" is a reference to those Hebrew Christians and includes the writer of Hebrews (probably Paul) also includes himself in this "we". (Paul said of himself in 1 Cor 9:21 he too come become a reprobate.) Those never really saved cannot let slip away what they never had. Paul is speaking about apostates in Heb 2:1 not just any unbeliever but those that once believed/Christians but let slip becoming apostates.

Heb 2:3 "How shall we (Christians/believers) escape, if we (become apostates by) neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"

The Hebrew epistle is written to those Hebrews that converted to Christianity, who had no spiritually matured as they should have warning them about backsliding into Judiasim becoming apostates.

You posted ""We” intends all who would “neglect salvation,” Again, Hebrews is specifically dealing with those who converted, who became believing Christians.

netchalain said:
"An evil heart of unbelief" exists in all, and is here exhorted not to continue in it or let it rule or dominate to keep you in unbelief. It also must be realized that this was given to them when just learning of the Gospel, so the many warnings or admonishments in Scripture were due to many believers being vulnerable in their walk, all being novices in the faith at that time. If we notice, nearly all of the NT's instructions were to keep converted Jews aware of the forces of oppositions that repeatedly made attempts to distract and confuse them, which could never succeed, they being Spirit-indwelt.

Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

Paul is not addressing all people in general in Heb 3;12. Again, he is specifically addressing Christians. A person never saved has always been in unbelief, always separated from God. Hence this verse is addressing the believing (Hebrew) Christian who is of God and warning about falling into unbelief and becoming separated from God which is spiritual death.
Paul here is warning about apostasy which if OSAS were true there would be no such thing as apostasy.

Under the OT law of Moses the Jews were God's children/sons (Ex 4:22); loved by God and were His chosen people (Deut 7:7-8; Hosea 11:1); they were a holy people (Deut 14:1-2) but were eventually cast off by God (Romans 11) and spiritually lost (Rom 10:1-3). This would not be possible if OSAS were true.

netchaplain said:
“Lest any of you should seem to come short of it;” either of the promise, or the rest promised; which if understood of the heavenly glory, the sense is, that though true believers shall not come short of that, yet they may "seem" to others to do so; and therefore should be careful of their lives and conversations, that they might not seem to come short; and this they should do, for the glory of God, the honor of Christ and his Gospel, and the good of others; but if the rest, and the promise of it, intend the Gospel and its dispensation, the meaning is, that saints should be concerned so to behave, that they might not seem to fail of the doctrine of the grace of God, and to be disappointed of that rest and peace promised in it." Gill

Heb 4:1 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
Heb 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

Again Christians are being addressed in these verses and are warned about INADVERTANLY coming short of it, fall after the example of unbelief.
The word "seem" does not mean they just have the appearance of failing to gain this rest (salvation) but carries the idea of unintentionally missing it.....

"Again, the word "haply" injects the idea of inadvertence. Alas, it must be supposed that the far greater part of Christians falling away from faith in Christ do so unintentionally. Few indeed ever decide boldly against the Lord, and move decisively against him; but, on the contrary, they allow inattention to spiritual things, carelessness in attending worship, neglect of daily prayer and study of the Word, and encroachments upon their time due to worldly and pleasure-loving friends to divert their attention first, and later their whole life and conduct from the path of honor and duty. It is hard to imagine a more urgent and persistent warning than the one given here." Coffman Commentaries

Even Presbyterian preacher Albert Barnes says of 'seem' in Heb 4:1 "The word “seem” here is used as a form of gentle and mild address, implying the possibility of thus coming short. The word here - δοκέω dokeō- is often used so as to appear to give no essential addition to the sense of a passage, though it is probable that it always gave a shading to the meaning. Thus, the phrase “esse videatur” is often used by Cicero at the end of a period, to denote merely that a thing “was” - though he expressed it as though it merely “seemed” to be. Such language is often used in argument or in conversation as a “modest” expression, as when we say a thing “seems” to be so and so, instead of saying “it is."
 
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Adam Clarke on Heb 4:1 and 'seem': Lest any of us should actually come short of it; i.e. miss it. See the note on the verb δοκειν, to seem, Luke 8:18;

Luke 8:18 KJV "Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have."


Clarke's comments on Luke 18:8:

Even that which he seemeth to have - Or rather, even what he hath. Ὁ δοκει εχειν, rendered by our common version, what he seemeth to have, seems to me to contradict itself. Let us examine this subject a little.

  1. To seem to have a thing, is only to have it in appearance, and not in reality; but what is possessed in appearance only can only be taken away in appearance; therefore on the one side there is no gain, and on the other side no loss. On this ground, the text speaks just nothing.

  • It is evident that ὁ δοκει εχειν, what he seemeth to have, here, is equivalent to ὁ εχει, what he hath, in the parallel places, Mark 4:25; Matthew 13:12; Matthew 25:29; and in Luke 19:26.
  • It is evident, also, that these persons had something which might be taken away from them.

  • For the word of God, the Divine seed, was planted in their hearts.
  • It had already produced some good effects; but they permitted the devil, the cares of the world, the desire of riches, and the love of pleasure, to destroy its produce.
  • The word δοκειν is often an expletive: so Xenophon in Hellen, vi. ὁτι εδοκει πατικος φιλος αυτοις, Because he seemed to be (i.e. Was) their father's friend. So in his Oeeon. Among the cities that seemed to be (δοκουσαις, actually were) at war. So Athenaeus, lib. vi. chap. 4. They who seemed to be (δοκουντες, who really were) the most opulent, drank out of brazen cups.
5. It often strengthens the sense, and is thus used by the very best Greek writers. Ulpian, in one of his notes on Demosthenes' Orat. Olinth. 1, quoted by Bishop Pearce, says expressly, το δοκειν ου παντως επι αμφιβολου ταττουσιν οἱ παλαιοι, αλλα πολλακις και επι του αληθευειν . The word δοκειν is used by the ancients to express, not always what is doubtful, but oftentimes what is true and certain. And this is manifestly its meaning in Matthew 3:9; Luke 22:24; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 7:40; 1 Corinthians 10:12; 1 Corinthians 11:16; Galatians 2:9; Philippians 3:4; and in the text. See these meanings of the word established beyond the possibility of successful contradiction, in Bishop Pearce's notes on Mark 10:42, and in Kypke in loc. See also the notes on Matthew 13:12; (note).
 
on Heb 4:1
Just wanted to share my opinion on Hebrews 4. I don't know if this will address your point here, but I see it that in the first verse Paul was not assuming that all to whom he was speaking were believers, but is expressing his desires that none of those he was speaking to ("any of you") would miss entering God's salvation (rest). In verse 2 Paul shows that though the Gospel of Christ was preached unto all of them ("us"), it only "profited" the believers in the Gospel, as the following verse shows that those who "have believed do enter" into His rest (salvation).
 
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