Luke 21:20-24 and 70 A.D.

[Quantrill]

I'm not going to go over and over again about Luke 21:20, 21 and Matthew 24 as we have talked it to death only to keep repeating our self. Dispensationalist will never see the Spiritual in the literal scripture by how they are taught to only see the literal in scripture. This is why you reject what we are trying to get you to see that is literal and also prophetic in the Spiritual of end time events.

Dispensationalist only believe that literalsim is the best way to view scripture. They also believe there is no non-literal fulfillment of messianic prophecies in the NT. If a literal interpretation is not used in studying scripture there is no objective standard by which to study scripture.

Dispensationalist hold that the church has not replaced Israel in God's program and that the OT promises to Israel have not been transferred to the Church.

To sum it up dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy and recognizes a distinction between Israel and the Church and organizes the Bible into two different dispensations or administrations.

This is why you reject all the Spiritual prophecies found in the scriptures.

Dispensationalist's do use the 'literal' method of interpreting the Bible. But, this term is somewhat deceptive. If I remember right, it is not a term Dispensationalist's came up with. It is the way those who oppose Dispensationlist's describe us. But, it has stuck so we have to deal with it.

I would point out that 'literal' is not contrary to 'spiritual'. Anything in the Bible that is literal, is spiritual also. For example, the Virgin Birth of Christ. Was that a literal event? Yes it was. Was it spiritual? Yes it was. Because I believe it really and literally occurred just as it says, does not make it less spiritual.

The literal method of interpreting Scripture is not opposed to symbols, metaphors, similes, or allegory as long as that is shown to be the case. But we do not interpret Scripture metaphorically or spiritually. As though what is said is not to be taken literally. As though we must find the true 'spiritual' meaning behind what is said. What is said is spiritual. Every word of the Bible is spiritual.

As a Dispensatinalist, I don't reject the literal fulfillment of prophecy in Scripture. I believe every word of it. Just like the 1000 year millennium you brought up before. I believe it will be just as it says....a 1000 year literal reign of Christ on Earth. I reject the 'spiritualizing' of that to mean it is something other than what it says.

Yes, Dispensationalist's do see the Church and Israel as two separate bodies of believers. I am of the opinion that this belief that we the Church are 'spiritual Israel', is the result of so many years of there being no nation of Israel. Until 1948, there was no visible Israel. Thus Christians would be constantly asked what about Israel? God was not faithful to His promises to her. How can He be trusted. Their answer....God will fulfill His promises because the Church is the true Israel today. But, such an answer was not necessary. They should have just said, God will be true to His promises to Israel, exactly as He said. Just because there is no Israel at present means nothing. There will be. And we see it coming to pass.

Dispensationalist's hold to more than just two dispensations. It is usually agreed that there are 7. And you yourself acknowledge a certain dispensational teaching if you recognize the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Law and Grace. You just don't recognize the other dispensations that we do.

I don't agree with everything dispensational. And there are some hyper-dispensationalist's that I disagree with also. But over all, I agree with it. I believe it is a key to understanding the Scripture. And I believe the Scofield Study Bible is the best Bible to have in understanding the Dispensational view.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

All you gave first was (Zech. 14:1-2). That involves the 'Day of the Lord'. The seven year Tribulation.

The Day of the Lord is certainly not the 7 year tribulation.

There is no such thing as the 7 year tribulation.

The Great tribulation is 3/12 years long, 1260 days, a times time and a half of time.

The Day of the Lord is when Jesus Christ returns with His saints to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture in which He destroys the wicked. This occurs after the tribulation.

That’s why it’s called the Day of Christ.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


That‘s the day of the Lord.




JLB

 

[JLB]

This is proof that (Luke 21:24) is speaking to 70 A.D. For (Luke) says at the end, the Jews are taken captive and led away unto all nations until the 'Times of the Gentiles' is fulfilled.

This is during the great tribulation.

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:22-24


The beginning of the 70th week enabled the Temple to be rebuilt.

In the “middle” of the week the great tribulation begins, where the “prince who is to come” puts an end to sacrifice and offering.

But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
Revelation 11:2


Here we see a rebuilt Temple during the tribulation and the Gentiles are in the outer court and the city.



JLB

 

[Quantrill]

The Day of the Lord is certainly not the 7 year tribulation.

There is no such thing as the 7 year tribulation.

The Great tribulation is 3/12 years long, 1260 days, a times time and a half of time.

The Day of the Lord is when Jesus Christ returns with His saints to gather His people at the resurrection and rapture in which He destroys the wicked. This occurs after the tribulation.

That’s why it’s called the Day of Christ.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


That‘s the day of the Lord.




JLB

You ignore the very verses you have been giving me. (Zech. 14:1-2) "Behold the day of the LORD cometh,...." And it goes on to describe the terribleness of it.

Plus, (Joel 1:15) "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

(Joel 2:1-2) "...for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness...."

The 'Day of the Lord' certainly involves the judgments upon unbelieving Israel and the world. It is not just the Second Coming of Christ.

And, I disagree with your whole time table concerning the end time events.

But, the point I was making before was that (Zech. 14:1-2) which you like to quote, is a period of judgement. It is not the Second Coming. It is still the 'Times of the Gentiles'. When Christ returns, that will end the time of the Gentiles and Jerusalem is no longer under Gentile rule.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

This is during the great tribulation.

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:22-24


The beginning of the 70th week enabled the Temple to be rebuilt.

In the “middle” of the week the great tribulation begins, where the “prince who is to come” puts an end to sacrifice and offering.

But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
Revelation 11:2


Here we see a rebuilt Temple during the tribulation and the Gentiles are in the outer court and the city.



JLB

No, it's not. At the end of the Tribulation Christ returns and delivers Israel. In (Luke 21:24) the Jews are led away captive unto all nations. That is 70 A.D.

Different warnings. (Luke 21:20) Different end results. (Luke 21:24) Because it is two different sieges.

Plus, with your interpretation, Christ never answered the disciples question about the destruction of the Temple. And that is the Temple Christ referred to in His day. And that Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

Dispensationalist's do use the 'literal' method of interpreting the Bible. But, this term is somewhat deceptive. If I remember right, it is not a term Dispensationalist's came up with. It is the way those who oppose Dispensationlist's describe us. But, it has stuck so we have to deal with it.

I have to respectfully disagree with what you believe here.

Dispensationalism - en.m.wikipedia.org

The first systematic expression of dispensationalism was formulated by the father of dispensationalism by John Nelson Darby sometime during the late 1820's and 1830's in British Isles in whom began the dispensation movement. Darby's development was the culmination of various influences which produced within his thought one of the most literal approaches to Bible interpretation in history and a theology which distinguishes God's plan for Israel from God's plan for the Church. The most well known feature of dispensational theology is the much debated pretribulation rapture theory. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something. Darby was succeeded by the theologian C. I. Scofield, Harry A. Ironside, Lewis Sperry Chafer, William R. Newell and Miles J. Stanford, each of whom identified Pentecost (Acts 2) with the start of the Church as distinct from Israel.

Grace Movement Dispensationalist believe the Church started later in Acts and emphasize the beginning of the Church with the ministry of Paul. Advocates of this "mid-Acts" position identify the start of the Church occurring between the salvation of Saul in Acts 9 and the Holy Spirit's commissioning of Paul in Acts 13. The "Acts 28" posits that the Church began in Acts 28 where the Apostle Paul quotes Isaiah 6:9, 10 concerning the blindness of Israel, announcing that the salvation of God is sent to the Gentile world, Acts 28:28. (Anybody interested in dispensationalism can read more at that site.)

In light of all of this information can you explain with scripture God's plan for Israel from God's plan for the Church?

Once again, the fullness of the Gentiles makes up all of Israel that will be saved. As Ephraim mixed himself up with other nations that was a foreshadowing of the Gentiles being grafted into Israel meaning all of Israel will be saved that have faith in God as being part of the covenant God made with Abraham, Genesis 12:1-3; 48:17-19; Hosea 7:8. Jesus told the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel first in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria and then to the ends of the world, Acts 1:8; 8:14-17, Samaria is the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel as both Jew and Gentiles both dwelt there, Galatians 3:28, 29.

 

[for_his_glory]

You ignore the very verses you have been giving me

Zechariah 14:1-11 is the prophecy God gave to Zechariah that will be fulfilled on the day of the Lord during the battle of Gog and Magog being the battle of Armageddon that occurs on the last day when Christ returns and plants His feet on the mount of Olives. Rev 20:7-10 is the fulfillment of the prophecy God gave to Zechariah in Zechariah 14:

Because you are a dispensationalist you have been blinded in part as you have never been taught this before as you believe the theories Darby taught and the likes of him that have been teaching these theories since the early 1800's. You reject all the many scriptures we have given you about this prophecy as you choose to reject the scriptures instead of taking the time to study them. It is you that is ignoring the scriptures for what God has already spoken as you put a man's theories over the truths found in the scriptures. This is what we are trying to get you to see how dispensationalist are in great error of the scriptures.

 

[Quantrill]

I have to respectfully disagree with what you believe here.

Dispensationalism - en.m.wikipedia.org

The first systematic expression of dispensationalism was formulated by the father of dispensationalism by John Nelson Darby sometime during the late 1820's and 1830's in British Isles in whom began the dispensation movement. Darby's development was the culmination of various influences which produced within his thought one of the most literal approaches to Bible interpretation in history and a theology which distinguishes God's plan for Israel from God's plan for the Church. The most well known feature of dispensational theology is the much debated pretribulation rapture theory. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something. Darby was succeeded by the theologian C. I. Scofield, Harry A. Ironside, Lewis Sperry Chafer, William R. Newell and Miles J. Stanford, each of whom identified Pentecost (Acts 2) with the start of the Church as distinct from Israel.

Grace Movement Dispensationalist believe the Church started later in Acts and emphasize the beginning of the Church with the ministry of Paul. Advocates of this "mid-Acts" position identify the start of the Church occurring between the salvation of Saul in Acts 9 and the Holy Spirit's commissioning of Paul in Acts 13. The "Acts 28" posits that the Church began in Acts 28 where the Apostle Paul quotes Isaiah 6:9, 10 concerning the blindness of Israel, announcing that the salvation of God is sent to the Gentile world, Acts 28:28. (Anybody interested in dispensationalism can read more at that site.)

In light of all of this information can you explain with scripture God's plan for Israel from God's plan for the Church?

Once again, the fullness of the Gentiles makes up all of Israel that will be saved. As Ephraim mixed himself up with other nations that was a foreshadowing of the Gentiles being grafted into Israel meaning all of Israel will be saved that have faith in God as being part of the covenant God made with Abraham, Genesis 12:1-3; 48:17-19; Hosea 7:8. Jesus told the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel first in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria and then to the ends of the world, Acts 1:8; 8:14-17, Samaria is the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel as both Jew and Gentiles both dwelt there, Galatians 3:28, 29.

Well, just what do you 'respectfully' disagree with? That you disagree with me doesn't bother me. Yet your explanation doesn't respond to the two sentences you quoted from me, out of the many I wrote. I already said that we use the literal method of interpretation. So? Big deal.

Don't ask me questions when you intentionally ignore most of post #(81).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Zechariah 14:1-11 is the prophecy God gave to Zechariah that will be fulfilled on the day of the Lord during the battle of Gog and Magog being the battle of Armageddon that occurs on the last day when Christ returns and plants His feet on the mount of Olives. Rev 20:7-10 is the fulfillment of the prophecy God gave to Zechariah in Zechariah 14:

Because you are a dispensationalist you have been blinded in part as you have never been taught this before as you believe the theories Darby taught and the likes of him that have been teaching these theories since the early 1800's. You reject all the many scriptures we have given you about this prophecy as you choose to reject the scriptures instead of taking the time to study them. It is you that is ignoring the scriptures for what God has already spoken as you put a man's theories over the truths found in the scriptures. This is what we are trying to get you to see how dispensationalist are in great error of the scriptures.

Says you.

I don't doubt (Zech. 14:1-11) is a prophecy God gave to Zechariah that will be fulfilled on the day of the LORD. I am against what you and others are attributing to that 'Day'.

What makes the 'likes of you' better than the likes of Darby, Scofield, Schafer, and others? Perhaps I should be wary of the likes of you.

I am not ignoring Scripture. My method of interpretation is far different than yours as I explained in post #(81). Which you ignored.

Again, our method of interpretation is not the same. There is no way we can agree. You can say I am in error all you want. Means nothing. You don't interpret the Scripture the way Dispensationalist's do. That is,... you and the 'likes of you'.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

Says you.

I don't doubt (Zech. 14:1-11) is a prophecy God gave to Zechariah that will be fulfilled on the day of the LORD. I am against what you and others are attributing to that 'Day'.

What makes the 'likes of you' better than the likes of Darby, Scofield, Schafer, and others? Perhaps I should be wary of the likes of you.

I am not ignoring Scripture. My method of interpretation is far different than yours as I explained in post #(81). Which you ignored.

Again, our method of interpretation is not the same. There is no way we can agree. You can say I am in error all you want. Means nothing. You don't interpret the Scripture the way Dispensationalist's do. That is,... you and the 'likes of you'.

Quantrill

Then we are done and you have a good evening.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Concerning the Olivet Discourse I believe you have two sieges of Jerusalem in view. This is found in (Matt. 24), (Mark 13), and (Luke 21).

I believe these verses in (Luke 21:20-24) speak to 70 A.D. for several reasons. For one, Jesus specifically was addressing the temple that existed when He prophesied of it's destruction. (Luke 21:6) So, somewhere there must be an answer to the disciples response question of "when shall these things be?", and how it pertains to the destruction of that existing temple. (21:7)

(Matt. 24) covers more thoroughly the siege of Jerusalem which will occur at the end of the age. And (Mark 13) covers the same but not as thoroughly. (Luke) addresses briefly the Tribulation, (21:8-11) and the return of Christ. (21:25-28) But Luke also speaks of the coming destruction of 70 A.D. when the temple is destroyed. (Luke 21:20-24)

The warning given by Christ as to when the disciples should flee in (Matt) and (Mark) relates to the 'abomination of desolation' being set up in the temple. (Mark 13:14) (Matt. 24:15) And this relates specifically to the end time event of the Tribulation spoken of by Daniel. (Dan. 9:27)

But note that in (Luke 21:20) the warning given involves Jerusalem surrounded by armies. "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." There was no abomination set up in the Temple in 70 A.D. But Jerusalem was surrounded. And, as most are aware, Christians in Jerusalem at that time remembered this warning by Christ. God provided for them miraculously, having the Roman army retreat briefly. The Christians made the most of it and escaped to Pella. The Roman army came back and destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.

Note also that the end result of these sieges of Jerusalem is different. In (Luke), the end result is the Jews are destroyed, killed, led away captive, till the "Times of the Gentiles" be fulfilled. But in (Matt) and (Mark), the end result is the return of Christ and deliverance. (Matt. 24:29-31) (Mark 13:24-27). (Luke) does present the Second Coming of Christ, (Luke 21:25-28), but only after the 'Times of the Gentiles' are fulfilled. (21:24)

It is for these reasons that I believe (Luke 21:20-24) speak to 70 A.D.

Quantrill

The times of the Gentiles has not been fulfilled. That takes place at the end of the 42 month occupation of the Gentiles found in Revelation. At that time the beast kills the two witnesses, the Jews are led away captive into the nations, the resurrection takes place.

Zech 14 confirms the Jews shall be led away captive when the Lord comes.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

There is no captivity at the end of the Tribulation. There is no continuance of the 'Times of the Gentiles'.

That is the end in (Luke 21:24).

Quantrill

There is a captivity that begins when Jesus comes. Not everyone in Jesus's kingdom are saved. Those in his kingdom who commit sin or do not belong to him are cast out. The Jews in Jesus's kingdom who do not belong to him will go into captivity and exile.

Zechariah 14:2 KJV: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be

biblehub.com

Zechariah 14:3 KJV: Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

biblehub.com

Zechariah 14:4 KJV: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great v

biblehub.com

As verse 14:2 states, they will be led away into captivity. Exile if you wish.