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Material Blessings

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mjjcb said:
We'll never agree that Jesus' promises are not physical gifts, but spiritual gifts.
Oh believe me, I go after spiritual blessings with all that I have. The blessing of His presence, of the understanding of His Word, of the opportunity to serve, etc.

I just happen to also believe that God blesses us materially. Would you not agree that the story about my car and about my job were manifestations of material blessings from God? Do you think satan would bless me like that? No, most certainly not. God blessed me because I believe His Word regarding His provision. DO NOT GET ME WRONG, I pretty much live paycheck to paycheck, but I get blessed by God A LOT in the material as well as in the spiritual.

For instance, last night, I asked God "When I confess my sin and repent, is our fellowship instantly restored? Because I always feel distant from you afterwards even though I believe I am forgiven. Is this just condemnation or are you just letting me feel the consequences of my sin even though I have been forgiven?" Well about 20 minutes later, God gave me this incredible revelation of Him as my FATHER. With every fiber of my being I could feel His incredible love for me and understood that He is my FATHER, my PERFECT father. (not just with my head and my heart, but every fiber of my being!). He just poured His love out on me right then and there. Well, that answered my question. He is my Father, and His greatest desire is to fellowship with me. Those feelings I had after confessing were condemnation, not God's punishment. I know that now. I was so on fire after that, I could not stop praising and worshipping Him all night long. His love had been poured into my heart, and worship just flowed out of me. For me, this is the ultimate spiritual blessing, when I am so full of the love of God that worship just wells up in me and I cannot help but praise Him from my heart and spirit for His faithfullness, His love, His provision, His salvation, His lovingkindess, His graciousness, His tender mercies and so on. This is the type of spiritual blessing that I prize above all else. Material blessings cannot even begin to compare.
 

Free

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mjjcb said:
The whole premise of "name it, claim it" theology (besides being flawed IMO) is the problem it can present to faithful Christians.

When I truly came to faith about 20 years ago, I was radically saved. I mean I was shot out of a cannon. I listened to everything, read everything, talked to everyone I could. In my spiritual infancy, I was very impressionable. I had a friend who said he literally heard the voice of God talk to him from time to time. I couldn't say that I had. This led to guilt on my part. "Why am I not hearing His voice? Am I not truly born again?" Eventually I learned enough to put this notion aside. Years later, he would say that he never actually "heard a literal voice". I wanted to call him out and tell him how much it effected me when he wasn't very honest in his spiritual experience, but I just left it alone. That's between him and God.
I think that a possibly larger problem is what this presents to believers in third world countries. Some would just be happy for God to provide their next meal.

I am fairly certain that if one searches, one could find that "name it and claim it"/Word of Faith theology is a very modern, first world, western Evangelical Christian development that began largely as a means to justify ministers getting wealthy off their listeners.

Having said that, I do agree that God blesses people materially but it has nothing to do with such erroneous theology, other than asking for help for what is needed and having faith. He has his reasons as to why some have abundance and some have little.
 

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faithtransforms said:
Would you not agree that the story about my car and about my job were manifestations of material blessings from God? Do you think satan would bless me like that? No, most certainly not.
I certainly couldn't comment on these things you received. I would say that Satan will use anything he can to distract someone's walk. Having material things can, not does, give people a feeling of self reliance. Personally, I can feel myself drifting a bit when things are going very well, and I feel less dependent on Him. Most of the time, this happens slowly without me even knowing it. So I'm going to answer this question of yours more generally. We need to consider everything that we have in our lives. Do they foster a closer relationship with God, or do they distract us. Your job and car sound like they are good, but I could never say. Suppose evil spirits whispered in the ear of your hiring manager that you would be a good fit, and this job turned out to be a "not so good fit" and you worked with people who drew you away. These are all hypotheticals that I suppose don't apply. I thank God for my car and my job, just as you do. But I would say He blesses me no more than if all I had was my faith. It starts and ends there with me.

You say you're living pay check to pay check, but in our industrialized modern culture, even the poor would be in the upper percentile of wealth compared to poverty stricken countries and throughout the history of the world. Don't ask me to prove that, and I certainly don't know your situation, but since you have a car, a job and the computer you're reading puts you in a whole different stratosphere from other times and places. I've been on a few mission trips to Brazil's most impoverished areas. It was brutal. I've heard Haiti is the worst of all. Those people no "poor".

Free said:
I am fairly certain that if one searches, one could find that "name it and claim it"/Word of Faith theology is a very modern, first world, western Evangelical Christian development that began largely as a means to justify ministers getting wealthy off their listeners.

Having said that, I do agree that God blesses people materially but it has nothing to do with such erroneous theology, other than asking for help for what is needed and having faith. He has his reasons as to why some have abundance and some have little.
Agreed completely. It would be interesting to do some research to determine when these types of theologies emerged, because they do seem like a relatively new spin, IMO.
 

jasoncran

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simple where they came from, men who are lusting for things and want others to help them get, but not by honest gain!
 

jasoncran

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archangel_300 said:
Last year I got a $450 traffic ticket over a very petty issue. I was able to take traffic school so the point wouldn't go on record.

BUT THEN.....

A few months later the city said they would reverse my traffic ticket and refund me the money + the traffic school cost + interest!!

Was that the prosperity gospel in action?

BUT THEN....

A couple of weeks after I got the notice that the city was going to reverse my traffic ticket, I got another traffic ticket over something very very petty. This time around the letter states I cannot take traffic school.

AND THEN....

My car needed to be fixed...
the dealership tried to pull a fast one on me... (luckily I didn't fall for it)

I got into a minor accident in a parking lot...

Seeing that my faith in God never waivers, what did I do wrong this time around?
sin!
 
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Understand that name it and claim it is not "I want a Cadillac, God you said I would prosper, so give me a cadillac". That is totally unscriptural. But for instance, in Isaiah 53, where it says Jesus bore our griefs, look at the Strong's definition of griefs:

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 02483
Original Word Word Origin
ylx from (02470)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Choliy TWOT - 655a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
khol-ee' Noun Masculine

Definition
sickness


King James Word Usage - Total: 24
sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1

You can see that this word was translated as sickness, desease or sick 20 times, and was only translated as grief 4 times and the only definiton given in Strong's is sickness. I believe that Jesus bore our sicknesses on the cross. He became a curse for us to free us from the curse of the Law. Well part of the curse of the Law was sickness. In Deut 28, God even says all the sicknesses not named here fall under this curse. So he is saying EVERY sickness is under the curse. So I believe I am redeemed of sickness because Jesus became the curse, that we might be free from the curse of the Law. Therefore, when I start to get symptoms of illness, I confess out loud "I am redeemed from the curse, Jesus bore my sickness on the cross, and by His stripes I am healed. Now virus, you leave my body RIGHT NOW in the Holy Name of Jesus Christ." In fact, I did this just yesterday, I was having all the signs of a chest cold, I confessed the above and today all the symptoms are gone.

I would agree though that if there are any nuts in the cereal box, it is among the name it claim it crowd. Most certainly there are many who use this unscripturally. But I believe that what I have described above IS scriptural.

I would never want anyone to believe they are somehow inferior or to think there is something wrong with them and or that they don't have faith. But many ARE unaware how to use faith (again not saving faith, but mountan moving faith, which as I said I will expound upon later once I have searched the scriptures and meditated on it).

What say you on this, my friends? I'm reposting it because I really want to know your opinions on this.
 

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i was wondering when you would bring the healing promise and deuteronomy 28.

hmm why is it we christians claim not be under that law, then claim the blessings of obeying the law. christ fulfilled it not us. he fulfilled then we should be running the gambit with the enemy. its he that does it.

however, that doenst mean we will not suffer loss or are guarenteed freedom from defeat as in we loose a job or something. satan will injure us, that is promised, but in christ we will ultimately have the victory.

funny that verse is meant to the nation of isreal not the christian, for if we failed to fulfill it then what nothing?

think about it. if we fail to have faith in that verse and trust him for that verse wheres that stipulation for that?
 
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jasoncran said:
i was wondering when you would bring the healing promise and deuteronomy 28.

hmm why is it we christians claim not be under that law, then claim the blessings of obeying the law. christ fulfilled it not us. he fulfilled then we should be running the gambit with the enemy. its he that does it.

however, that doenst mean we will not suffer loss or are guarenteed freedom from defeat as in we loose a job or something. satan will injure us, that is promised, but in christ we will ultimately have the victory.

funny that verse is meant to the nation of isreal not the christian, for if we failed to fulfill it then what nothing?

think about it. if we fail to have faith in that verse and trust him for that verse wheres that stipulation for that?
Jason, my love, I did NOT refer to the blessings of Deut 28. I referred to the curse. And it is clear in Galations 3 that Jesus became a curse for us so that we would be freed from the curse of the Law.
 

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i was taught that we had the blessing of that verse. not the curse, i used to be into what you say. i often didnt pray for healing but rather spoke to the illness and spoke the promises into existence.
ie i needed a job, souls saved, etc
 
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jasoncran said:
i was taught that we had the blessing of that verse. not the curse, i used to be into what you say. i often didnt pray for healing but rather spoke to the illness and spoke the promises into existence.
ie i needed a job, souls saved, etc
Why did you stop? Did it not work? Speaking to the illness, I mean? Like I did in my recent post. I spoke to that emerging chest cold, I believe scripturally, and its gone. No trace left. Do you think that is wrong?
 

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faithtransforms said:
jasoncran said:
i was taught that we had the blessing of that verse. not the curse, i used to be into what you say. i often didnt pray for healing but rather spoke to the illness and spoke the promises into existence.
ie i needed a job, souls saved, etc
Why did you stop? Did it not work? Speaking to the illness, I mean? Like I did in my recent post. I spoke to that emerging chest cold, I believe scripturally, and its gone. No trace left. Do you think that is wrong?
hmm, when i grew away, i just stopped and when i came back i looked at the verses on that. and listening the man ken graves who looked at healing and prayer alittle different.

we are promised healing all the time. but that is another thread. you can beat a cold simply by rest if caught early enough, not to say that doenst work(pray)
the problem i have now is this, are we jesus to speak for salvation( i did that too)prayed and claimed salvation for lost ones,and i spoke to engine parts to fix them.

when you look at the apostles they prayed not commanded the healings. with your line of thought we have the healing and we remind the illness of that. my line is this no, we are afflicted by that and we need the lord to heal and we look to him.

the problem is this, how do we know the will of God so perfectly that we can speak things into being all the time.
 

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ah, i also found that the preachers that preached that junk were often involved some scandal (paula white, hinn, and also joyce meyer)
the later is what killed me on this most.

shes states in her book the battle field of the mind that we have to renew our mind daily but changing habits and so on. i tried that in the flesh and failed,i prayed to the problem and nothing, i wanted to be delivered of a habit that plaques me even now.
i vaguely rember that we can be trained to be defeated by the devil.
 
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jasoncran said:
faithtransforms said:
jasoncran said:
i was taught that we had the blessing of that verse. not the curse, i used to be into what you say. i often didnt pray for healing but rather spoke to the illness and spoke the promises into existence.
ie i needed a job, souls saved, etc
Why did you stop? Did it not work? Speaking to the illness, I mean? Like I did in my recent post. I spoke to that emerging chest cold, I believe scripturally, and its gone. No trace left. Do you think that is wrong?
hmm, when i grew away, i just stopped and when i came back i looked at the verses on that. and listening the man ken graves who looked at healing and prayer alittle different.

we are promised healing all the time. but that is another thread. you can beat a cold simply by rest if caught early enough, not to say that doenst work(pray)
the problem i have now is this, are we jesus to speak for salvation( i did that too)prayed and claimed salvation for lost ones,and i spoke to engine parts to fix them.

when you look at the apostles they prayed not commanded the healings. with your line of thought we have the healing and we remind the illness of that. my line is this no, we are afflicted by that and we need the lord to heal and we look to him.

the problem is this, how do we know the will of God so perfectly that we can speak things into being all the time.

Acts 3, "Then Peter said , Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk." That's not really a prayer.

With regard to speaking things into being, that should only be done in line with scripture. When I speak something, I speak scripture. I don't say to my dog "In the name of Jesus, you go lie down." But as I said, I believe Jesus bore our sicknesses on the cross (and I personally think I made a pretty strong case for that), therefore I speak to the illness that I am redeemed from the curse, that by Jesus stripes I am healed, and virus go from me NOW in Jesus name. I am speaking scripture to the enemy essentially. The same way Jesus did when He was tempted in the wilderness. The only way we know God's will is by His Word, and sometimes personal revelation, but speaking to things into should be speaking scripture. Saying, "God, you said I would prosper. I want a cadillac in Jesus name." THAT'S UNSCRIPTURAL and is of the enemy.
 

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was he speaking to that illness? no. but that may be poor word translations as well.
 
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jasoncran said:
was he speaking to that illness? no. but that may be poor word translations as well.
No, he wasn't speaking to the illness. But he wasn't praying either. He commanded that man to rise up and walk. That's the point I was making. He also said, "such as I have I give thee", meaning he had the power of Jesus inside him, as we do also.
 
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jasoncran said:
ah, i also found that the preachers that preached that junk were often involved some scandal (paula white, hinn, and also joyce meyer)
the later is what killed me on this most.

shes states in her book the battle field of the mind that we have to renew our mind daily but changing habits and so on. i tried that in the flesh and failed,i prayed to the problem and nothing, i wanted to be delivered of a habit that plaques me even now.
i vaguely rember that we can be trained to be defeated by the devil.
I am going to be starting a thread on spiritual warfare. I am reading an excellent book right now, called "The Invisible War...What Every Christian Needs to Know about Satan, Demons, and Spiritual Warfare." If you care to share the habit that is plaguing you, send me a pm, I may be able to help.

I'm not saying you didn't do this, but just in case. When you renew your mind, it is not just by reading the bible in a general way. When you have a habit plaguing you, you must find a scripture pertaining to that and meditate on it until it becomes part of you. Until so much faith rises up in you that you BELIEVE that scripture is true and that it is true for YOU and you BELIEVE you are delivered of it BEFORE the deliverance manifests. There is a difference between faith/believing and hoping or positive thinking. When that scripture becomes a part of you, you know that you know that you know that what God's Word has said will come to pass. His Word does not return to Him void. I don't know if I'm explaining this very well. This kind of faith is VERY difficult to get to because it requires so much denial of the flesh. First you have to force yourself to meditate on that scripture over and over and over and over until the breakthrough comes. Then you have to believe before the healing/deliverance manifests. This is VERY hard on the flesh. We want to walk by sight, not by faith. This is a type of spiritual warfare. But there is more than that. If you are still being plagued by a habit that is ungodly after praying all these years, it is not just your flesh, there is demonic influence there. I've got to go right now before my vet closes and get some of my cat's ridiculously expensive prescription cat food. Will write more later. One last thing though, I love the way the amplified bible defines faith in Heb 11:1 "faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses." This is kind of showing what I mean by believing healing/deliverance is yours before it actually manifests in the physical. But again there is a difference between faith/believing and hoping/positive thinking. Hope this didn't sound condescending, you may know all this, but I felt led to share it.
 

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that sounds familiar to battlefield of mind.in part.
 
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jasoncran said:
that sounds familiar to battlefield of mind.in part.
Yeah, I tried to read that book, but it just didn't hold my attention. I think I read about half of it. Maybe she does discuss some of that in the book, but like you said, in part. I don't think she quite got into it like I did on this post.
 

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it was 10 yrs ago when i read that. i think even before i went to college in 2000.
 
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