What's new
Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • Online forum for sale. Please send Stovebolts PM for details. https://meetchristians.net
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

[_ Old Earth _] matter and energy(and other fallacies of atheism)

W

Wertbag

Guest
The universe by itself, being eternal, without God having made it eternal, is not logical.

Then how does an atheist explain it being eternal? Its not like God, who is supernatural, and is eternal. the atheist comparison of God to matter is not a good comparison, as far as the eternal aspects are concerned.
The universe being eternal would mean no creator was required, and that would be logical wouldn't it?
Surely if we believe that matter is not created or destroyed it only changes form, then an eternal universe fits this? The matter was spread out and due to gravity and other natural laws formed into more solid forms. The universe doesn't have to be supernatural to be eternal, just ever changing. The big bang theory I heard was compressed matter reaching critical mass blows outwards, all the matter always existed just was in a different form from what it is now.

The matter could not have been always there. How did it get there?
changing form, gravity pulling it to where it currently is, movement from other cosmic events.

Why is it there?
If it is natural as believed then there doesn't have to be a purpose.

What caused it to exist?
If its eternal, it doesn't have a cause it always was and always will be just in differing form to what it is now.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
But then you still must explain how it ever even got there/was created?

Having matter as eternal I can't get through the logic.

God being eternal is eternally more logical, but not very understood.

___

if you are saying that its logical that somethings as unsupernatural as matter was always eternal, then God being eternal is a 1000000 times more logical than that idea.

___

I imagine most atheists believe in an eternal universe, becuase it has slightly fewer fallacys than a non-eternal universe idea. But even the universe, without God, being eternal has no way explaining of how it got there. It can change form, but does it have the ability to create itself?

When we look at objects ie, cars, toasters, boats, doors, houses, planes, forks, clothes, computers, etc, we assume that someone created it, we don';t assume it was always there, in that form, or that it was in a another shape, but changed over time to its current shape. Believing the universe was like that is equally ludacris.
 
W

Wertbag

Guest
But then you still must explain how it ever even got there/was created?
No you don't, if its eternal it wasn't created, its always been. There are theories that say the universe could collasp back to a critical mass and create another big bang, thereby the matter has always been and would always be but the universe would reform itself.

if you are saying that its logical that somethings as unsupernatural as matter was always eternal, then God being eternal is a 1000000 times more logical than that idea.
No its not. The basic saying is matter is not created or destroyed it only changes form. That idea means it is eternal. It may have been a gas, a cloud, a liquid or a solid but the base matter still exists. We can see the matter, test the idea and come to that conclusion based on the evidence. We can't base God on any of those same grounds and that it why its not logical but pure faith.

When we look at objects ie, cars, toasters, boats, doors, houses, planes, forks, clothes, computers, etc, we assume that someone created it, we don';t assume it was always there, in that form, or that it was in a another shape, but changed over time to its current shape. Believing the universe was like that is equally ludacris.
Ah the classic stopwatch arguement, it really doesn't hold up. We know the obvious differences between organic and inorganic, man creates inorganic objects and organic objects are created through nature.
The basic matter though always existed. If we take the watch idea, the metal used was mined, refined and shipped to the watch maker who shaped it, the leather strap was taken from a cow, tanned, treated and shaped. The glass for the front was sand that was refined, the battery was mined materials. Even the user manual was a tree that was pulped. We can make matter change form into the everyday things we see, but we still need the basic resources to create those objects.
Its the same with the universe, the basic resources were there, its just a matter of them being shaped into the way we now see it. There is great study into gravity and cosmic events that can shape what we see, and the answers do seem to make sense.
 
R

reznwerks

Guest
matter

Why is it so hard to simply accept the reality that man does not and may not ever know everything there is to know about the universe? This reality does not default to a God must be in back of every mystery we don't understand.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
but if the universe is assumed eternal, then it still had to get there, unless it is supernatural matter, or matter that can create itself or something along those lines. By the way, does anyone beleive that matter(besides living things, is conscious?) This is a weird idea, that I've heard before, I think.

raisinwerks: i'm not saying if we don't know something we should say God did it. Athesits commonly say this, and its a huge misconceoption among atheists.


I also notice noone takes the belief that the universe is/was not eternal. That idea has more fallacys, so it seems atheists are thinking more clearly(albeit, not much) than usual. :biggrin
 
W

Wertbag

Guest
By the way, does anyone beleive that matter(besides living things, is conscious?) This is a weird idea, that I've heard before, I think.
Its a strange idea that I've heard too. There was that idea that the planet or gaia had a life force and a concious, seemed a strange idea that wasn't really based on anything logical that I could see.

but if the universe is assumed eternal, then it still had to get there, unless it is supernatural matter, or matter that can create itself or something along those lines.
If the universe is eternal it didn't have to get there, it always was there. The matter wasn't created, it has always been.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
Oh thtas right, that idea is called gaia, I think its a native american belief? Or some native americans hold that bleif, the earth is a spirit or something, and will purify itself or something.

___

But still, if the matter is not super natural, or has the ability to create itself, how did it get there? You're sounding a little dodgy, unless you beleive that matter has the abilities of God, I see no way it could've been "always there".
 
W

Wertbag

Guest
You seem to have a mental block over this point. The term eternal means: Being without beginning or end, Continuing without interruption; perpetual. You seem to understand the term when applied to God but not to matter. The idea I'm trying to give is that all the matter that we see has always been in some form. Whether it was a cloud of dust, a liquid, a solid or a gas, in some form the matter always was. Even with the idea of a big bang the matter still existed it was just compressed to critical mass.
Maybe its simply the human mind unable to contemplate the infinite? Its impossible to think of an infinite universe, infinite number or infinite time.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
You seem to have a "don't answer the question" mentality. I ask you where did the matter come from? You say it was always there. You will blindly accept that non-supernatural, non-living, non-intelligent matter was always there, but when I say, an intelliegent, supernatural creator exists and is out of time, and as far as we know, always existed, you say that can't be.

You must explain how the matter is eteranl. unless it is God, and has God's powers and abilities, you must explain how, how, how, how, it was always there. How did it get there.

If it was gas,liquid, whatever, how did that get there? Go back as far as you can, and think of how it ever came to existance in the first place.
When you do, answer the question.

I have no trouble imagining infinate God, because I believe He has the supernatural abilties to be eternal. I see no supernatural abilities of matter(there are few exceptions, however).

All I'm trying to say is that matter canot have always been eternal. It is not supernatural. Most people do not think matter is God. Most people do not think that matter is supernatural.

Some people easily beleive that matter was always there, but then they(atheists) say, God being eternal is illogical.

Atheists can never answer this fallacy with facts or logic.

I commend you for trying though, Wertbag. You didn't run away like the other atheists.
 
W

Wertbag

Guest
You seem to have a "don't answer the question" mentality. I ask you where did the matter come from? You say it was always there. You will blindly accept that non-supernatural, non-living, non-intelligent matter was always there, but when I say, an intelliegent, supernatural creator exists and is out of time, and as far as we know, always existed, you say that can't be.
I have answered the question exactly as you asked it. If matter is eternal it was not created. I accept that matter can be eternal as the first law of physics is matter cannot be destroyed or created, therefore it is a fair conclusion that it always has been and always will be. That is an accepted scientific law that explains the whole discussion at its base. You keep going back to this idea that the matter must have been created, but thats the whole idea of eternal matter, it was not created.
The reason I believe matter can be eternal is that we know its properties, we can test the theories and we know how it reacts. Belief in God requires alot more faith as there is no way to test, no way to prove and as far as I can see the only way we can tell that He is eternal is based on ancient writings. Its the old fact vs faith debate.

You must explain how the matter is eteranl. unless it is God, and has God's powers and abilities, you must explain how, how, how, how, it was always there. How did it get there.
If it was gas,liquid, whatever, how did that get there? Go back as far as you can, and think of how it ever came to existance in the first place.
When you do, answer the question.
There is no How, there is no start to an eternal substance. Go back as far as you can and you still have the same matter, the universe still exists just in differing forms. It doesn't need to be supernatural, it doesn't need any of Gods powers, it just has to exist. There is no "first place", eternal means it always was, there is no beginning.

All I'm trying to say is that matter canot have always been eternal.
Why not? If we know it is not created or destroyed then why can it not be eternal?

they(atheists) say, God being eternal is illogical.
Atheists say God being at all is illogical. If the universe is eternal then there was no creation, and no need for a creator, that could be a reason that Christians will argue against an eternal universe.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
Actually, I think it more like this: Matter can be destroyed, energy cannot, it only becomes unusable.

How was the matter eternal? Thats a question that cannot be avoided. If matter is not God, nor has God's abilities of being eteranl, then it cannot be eternal. Unless Matter is your God?

Athesits never have good answers for the fallacys of atheism. Sometimes they give false answers, i.e. life has been created in the labs.

This question, this fallacy is the biggest one of atheism. Most athesits don't even seem to try to answer it. As they dodged for five pages.

If something exists, it had to get there, the question is how? Science cannot determine the answer, the answer is that it was created. If God did not exist, and create, there would be nothing. zilch, nothing, we wouldn't be debating this now if that were true.

What about the so considered "accurate" dating systems. date matter to see if its eternal? A long strecth I guess. I don't think any matter has ever been scientifically determined to have always been there.
 
S

SyntaxVorlon

Guest
If something exists, it had to get there, the question is how? Science cannot determine the answer, the answer is that it was created. If God did not exist, and create, there would be nothing. zilch, nothing, we wouldn't be debating this now if that were true.
Ah, so christians have determined this answer? How have they tested it? corroborated it? Reviewed it?
All you have determined is that there must have been a starting point, you have not shown it to be necessary that this starting point was your god or any other or even a god at all.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
SyntaxVorlon said:
If something exists, it had to get there, the question is how? Science cannot determine the answer, the answer is that it was created. If God did not exist, and create, there would be nothing. zilch, nothing, we wouldn't be debating this now if that were true.
Ah, so christians have determined this answer? How have they tested it? corroborated it? Reviewed it?
All you have determined is that there must have been a starting point, you have not shown it to be necessary that this starting point was your god or any other or even a god at all.
I came to the conclusion that my God did by other ways. As long as you are an atheist, being closeminded, I won't get into the discussions like that. We wouldn't ever make progress. Not now...

I still believe that to the unbiased person, the conclusion will be that the universe was created by someone. They have to determine who did, by other ways. Science won't do it. I've never known science to show who God is anyway....

If God didn't exist, I do not beleive we would have any religions at all. No nothing as a matter of fact.
 
S

SyntaxVorlon

Guest
"as a matter of fact"
Strong words, as a matter of accuracy it ought to be "a matter of faith on the part of myself[F-Bop]"

I came to the conclusion that my God did by other ways. As long as you are an atheist, being closeminded, I won't get into the discussions like that. We wouldn't ever make progress. Not now...
If you're not willing to discuss it that means that you are conceding that part of the debate as one you cannot substatiate or even make a case for. If you can't make a case, a convincing one no less, for your MAJOR premise your conclusion cannot be reached using your premises.

I still believe that to the unbiased person, the conclusion will be that the universe was created by someone. They have to determine who did, by other ways. Science won't do it. I've never known science to show who God is anyway..
Your belief does nothing to convince me. You've shown no argument, you've presented no reason to believe, and you've got no support.
 
C

cubedbee

Guest
Featherbop said:
Actually, I think it more like this: Matter can be destroyed, energy cannot, it only becomes unusable.

How was the matter eternal? Thats a question that cannot be avoided. If matter is not God, nor has God's abilities of being eteranl, then it cannot be eternal. Unless Matter is your God?

Athesits never have good answers for the fallacys of atheism. Sometimes they give false answers, i.e. life has been created in the labs.

This question, this fallacy is the biggest one of atheism. Most athesits don't even seem to try to answer it. As they dodged for five pages.

If something exists, it had to get there, the question is how? Science cannot determine the answer, the answer is that it was created. If God did not exist, and create, there would be nothing. zilch, nothing, we wouldn't be debating this now if that were true.

What about the so considered "accurate" dating systems. date matter to see if its eternal? A long strecth I guess. I don't think any matter has ever been scientifically determined to have always been there.
Even if an atheist admits to you that there must be a creator, that creator doesn't logically need to be God. When you say God, you are speaking of a personal omnipotent omniscient being. There could just as well be a blind force that eternally creates universes. Or there could be some sort of all-powerful being, but we could be a pimple on his nose that is about to be popped, not a universe that he carefully and lovingly created. Even if you can prove the universe must have been created, you have proved nothing about the attributes of the creator. Ultimately, God is unprovable and must be taken on faith.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
SyntaxVorlon said:
"as a matter of fact"
Strong words, as a matter of accuracy it ought to be "a matter of faith on the part of myself[F-Bop]"

I came to the conclusion that my God did by other ways. As long as you are an atheist, being closeminded, I won't get into the discussions like that. We wouldn't ever make progress. Not now...
If you're not willing to discuss it that means that you are conceding that part of the debate as one you cannot substatiate or even make a case for. If you can't make a case, a convincing one no less, for your MAJOR premise your conclusion cannot be reached using your premises.

[quote:0be1c]I still believe that to the unbiased person, the conclusion will be that the universe was created by someone. They have to determine who did, by other ways. Science won't do it. I've never known science to show who God is anyway..
Your belief does nothing to convince me. You've shown no argument, you've presented no reason to believe, and you've got no support.[/quote:0be1c]

When I said "matter of fact" I meant as a matter of fact I believe. It is a fact that I believe.

I won't take this topic off subject any longer. I've tolerated your dodginess enough. Make your own topic and challenge me if you want, but don't de-rail mine.

I've got plenty of support for what I believe. You don't. That is all. I won't try to convince you of something you are closeminded too with evidence and proof I can't give to you.

Simple as that. I didn't videotape my miracles. I haven't written down a complete synopsis and reasons of what and why i believe what I do. I have not recored my experiances(I don't even keep a journal of personal things). Sorry, can't do it.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
cubedbee said:
Featherbop said:
Actually, I think it more like this: Matter can be destroyed, energy cannot, it only becomes unusable.

How was the matter eternal? Thats a question that cannot be avoided. If matter is not God, nor has God's abilities of being eteranl, then it cannot be eternal. Unless Matter is your God?

Athesits never have good answers for the fallacys of atheism. Sometimes they give false answers, i.e. life has been created in the labs.

This question, this fallacy is the biggest one of atheism. Most athesits don't even seem to try to answer it. As they dodged for five pages.

If something exists, it had to get there, the question is how? Science cannot determine the answer, the answer is that it was created. If God did not exist, and create, there would be nothing. zilch, nothing, we wouldn't be debating this now if that were true.

What about the so considered "accurate" dating systems. date matter to see if its eternal? A long strecth I guess. I don't think any matter has ever been scientifically determined to have always been there.
Even if an atheist admits to you that there must be a creator, that creator doesn't logically need to be God. When you say God, you are speaking of a personal omnipotent omniscient being. There could just as well be a blind force that eternally creates universes. Or there could be some sort of all-powerful being, but we could be a pimple on his nose that is about to be popped, not a universe that he carefully and lovingly created. Even if you can prove the universe must have been created, you have proved nothing about the attributes of the creator. Ultimately, God is unprovable and must be taken on faith.
Yes, and thats why atheists are hypocrites. They reject faith in God, but will have faith in very absurd things. Evolution of sorts spring to mind.
 
W

Wertbag

Guest
If matter is not God, nor has God's abilities of being eteranl, then it cannot be eternal.
This pretty much sums up the problem we have with this discussion. You are unable to comprehend anything being eternal apart from God, whereas I'm saying I can see matter being eternal is also a possibility that doesn't require a diety of any kind. I have answered this question and there is no fallacy, it is simply that you cannot understand this viewpoint because of your belief in God.

What about the so considered "accurate" dating systems. date matter to see if its eternal?
Dating methods tell us when material was formed or deformed, but its impossible to date a single atom. We can look at the amount of different materials joined together or the decay rates of those materials, but going deeper and looking at the individual parts that make up the matter will give us no information as to age.

Yes, and thats why atheists are hypocrites. They reject faith in God, but will have faith in very absurd things.
Pretty much the base of every christian vs atheist arguement (and vice versa) ever. Atheists can't understand how you can believe in an invisible, unprovable being, or put faith in a book that is so widely argued about. In return christians can't understand how atheists can believe in evolution, how they can fail to see the works of God and how they can reject the teachings of the church.
To each side the other looks illogical, both think the other is deluded and I can't see that ever changing.
Its almost impossibe for any one person to be able to answer all the questions, you'd need to be a biologist, chemist, archiologist, historian, geologist and a dozen other fields of science all rolled into one. All we can do is each make our own decisions based on the evidence given to us.
 

Featherbop

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2003
Messages
1,444
Wertbag, its not almost impossible for someone to answer all the questions, it is impossible.

I'm saying since God is supernatural, having His abilities, and knowledge and power, and etc, I see easily that God exists, and is eternal.

I don't see matter with God's abilities. I don't see how matter could be eternal. Unless it is supernatural and has the abilities of God, or is God, it won't work. I see it even more absurd that people beleive that a random big bang happened and then a planet suitable for life formed and then complex ife developed for no reason.

Everyone has to assume something. I assume God exists and is eternal. Atheists assume that God is not real and that matter is eternal. They don't continue to make assumtions to even try to make atheism make sense. I suppose thats because atheists must deny anything not made of matter.

You seem to be unable to see the illogic of matter on its on, being eternal. It had to have a starting point, because you have not claimed that matter is in anyway suopernatural or having God-like abilities. Its simple matter.

It really bugs me how atheists never will give logical answers to this fallacy. oh well
 
Top