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[_ Old Earth _] Monkey Apes Humans by Walking on Two Legs

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Quath

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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=16&u=/ap/20040721/ap_on_fe_st/upright_monkey:

JERUSALEM - A young monkey at an Israeli zoo has started walking on its hind legs only  aping humans  after a near death experience, the zoo's veterinarian said Wednesday.

thumb.xem80107211944.mideast_israel_upright_monkey_xem801.jpg


Natasha, a 5-year-old black macaque at the Safari Park near Tel Aviv, began walking exclusively on her hind legs after a stomach ailment nearly killed her, zookeepers said.

Monkeys usually alternate between upright movement and walking on all fours. A picture in the Maariv daily on Wednesday showed Natasha standing ramrod straight like a human. The picture was labeled humorously, "The Missing Link?"

Two weeks ago, Natasha and three other monkeys were diagnosed with severe stomach flu. At the zoo clinic, she slipped into critical condition, said Igal Horowitz, the veterinarian.

"I was sure that she was going to die," he said. "She could hardly breathe and her heart was not functioning properly."

After intensive treatment, Natasha's condition stabilized. When she was released from the clinic, Natasha began walking upright.

"I've never seen or heard of this before," said Horowitz. One possible explanation is brain damage from the illness, he said.

Otherwise, Horowitz said, Natasha's behavior has returned to normal.

It is funny that a neurological change makes people see the human - chimp connection when there is better evidence from the genetics.

Quath
 
I saw something like this somewhere on Television a few years ago. A chimp was trained to walk upright, IIRC it was a performing circus chimp. I've never heard of brain damage from sickness causing a chimp, or anything else for that matter, to stand up and walk upright.

I wonder too, though, if the sickness it had is really related to its walking upright. It could be coincidence. Could be a hoax, I haven't seen this on the news.

No dought someone will try to make this into evidence of evolution of humans from the apes. It is somewhat ironic that brain damage might allow a chimp to walk upright. Kind of funny.

Heh. Maybe next time I get a serious stomach illness, I might start crawling on all fours.
 
Monkeys often walk on two legs, although they don't often do it for long.

They can't walk as humans do, because the angle of the femur and the distribution of large muscles in the legs and buttocks are different in humans.

So they have to use an inefficient "rocking" gait that makes it a comparatively tiring and slow process.

My guess is that there was some damage to motor centers that produced a weakness in the upper limb muscles used for walking.
 
I think that it is funny that to make a chimp more like a human, you have to give it brain damage.

Quath
 
:Fade-color It's really odd that we rarely ever see a picture of an ape
walking upright,if ever at all,and I have not ever seen it on t.v. or anywhere else.
what is also very strange is why ape's show no signs of human development that they should have if they can turn into humans. Why are
they still so harry and dark skinned,ect.....
what races would they be part of the most often?
human genetics and the genetics of apes is being proven to be very different from one another.
It is strange that we haven't seen not even one ape evolve over the past
6 thousand years. I don't believe they ever will.
 
what is also very strange is why ape's show no signs of human development that they should have if they can turn into humans. Why are
they still so harry and dark skinned,ect.....
what races would they be part of the most often?

This incorrect analysis plays on one of the BIGGEST misconceptions creationists have about evolution....so let me say it clearly.

Humans did NOT evolve from the apes we see today!

Evolution holds that we decended from a common ancestor...we are cousins, not decendents. Over the course of millions of years, evolution does not hold that a chimpanzee will turn into a human....rather that a chimpanzee will evolve into something better suited for whatever environment it lives in.

It does a disservice to the creationist side to keep using this argument.

human genetics and the genetics of apes is being proven to be very different from one another.
It is strange that we haven't seen not even one ape evolve over the past
6 thousand years

6 thousands years is nothing in the evolution timetable....see this link to see what I mean...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9044

Yes, the DNA of apes and humans are different, but only by a very slight degree (we are cousins, remember). We have only been studying genetics and evolution for perhaps 150-200 years, so our window into any slight changes are difficult to perceive.

This is especially evident in primates, which are relatively long-lived in the animal/plant world. Science, through observing animals and plants with quicker reproductive rates have been able to discover speciation and evolution.

Flies reproduce almost every month, whereas humans its about every 20 years, and chimpanzees I believe it is 12-15 years. Thus, in the short window of even 6,000 years, evolution would be more difficult to discern from the longer-lived animals.
 
ThinkerMan said:
what is also very strange is why ape's show no signs of human development that they should have if they can turn into humans. Why are
they still so harry and dark skinned,ect.....
what races would they be part of the most often?

This incorrect analysis plays on one of the BIGGEST misconceptions creationists have about evolution....so let me say it clearly.

Humans did NOT evolve from the apes we see today!

Evolution holds that we decended from a common ancestor...we are cousins, not decendents. Over the course of millions of years, evolution does not hold that a chimpanzee will turn into a human....rather that a chimpanzee will evolve into something better suited for whatever environment it lives in.

It does a disservice to the creationist side to keep using this argument.

[quote:9a015]human genetics and the genetics of apes is being proven to be very different from one another.
It is strange that we haven't seen not even one ape evolve over the past
6 thousand years

6 thousands years is nothing in the evolution timetable....see this link to see what I mean...

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=9044

Yes, the DNA of apes and humans are different, but only by a very slight degree (we are cousins, remember). We have only been studying genetics and evolution for perhaps 150-200 years, so our window into any slight changes are difficult to perceive.

This is especially evident in primates, which are relatively long-lived in the animal/plant world. Science, through observing animals and plants with quicker reproductive rates have been able to discover speciation and evolution.

Flies reproduce almost every month, whereas humans its about every 20 years, and chimpanzees I believe it is 12-15 years. Thus, in the short window of even 6,000 years, evolution would be more difficult to discern from the longer-lived animals.[/quote:9a015]

:B-fly: That makes absolutely no sense to me!
The Bible says that there is nothing new under the sun.
When God gave instructions to Adam & Eve,they were human beings,not
animals. People use language,and people write words down,animals do not. There are pictures and ancient writings that prove humans were always human beings. Animals do not,even to this very day know how to read and write. random hits and misses on a key board prove this is so with monkeys,dogs,ect.....
We simply cannot denie the evidence of God's design in creation. We were made "A Little" lower than the angels,and animals are lower than humans,yet higher than plants. Everything has an order and rank.
I know liberals wish everything,not just everyone was created equal but that is just not the way God made the creation of the world,and the sooner
people understand and accept this,the better able they will be to understand and accept the truth.
I cannot say that people and plants and all forms of life are created equal. They just are not!!!
God made everyone and everything a certain way. Who ever has a problem with this should talk to God about it.
Being proud and puffed up only leads to sin and ultimately bitterness,and
a hatred for life.
Everyone of God's creation is loved,but they are not all equal.
I am very sorry if some people hate me for saying this,but it's a fact of
life.
Humans were not ever recorded in the bible,history,or any where else as
being Apes or any kind of animal,not ever,amen.
We have no genetic simularities to Apes at all,and that is proven today.
simular genes as simular as you claim humans are to Apes will be able to
reproduce,but they cannot.
The truth is out about that tall tale. We have no simular DNA or genes that
are even close to being like Apes or monkeys or any other animals or species.
 
Humans did NOT evolve from the apes we see today!

Evolution holds that we decended from a common ancestor...we are cousins, not decendents. Over the course of millions of years, evolution does not hold that a chimpanzee will turn into a human....rather that a chimpanzee will evolve into something better suited for whatever environment it lives in.

:Fade-color It really does a dis-service to those who claim evolution to
keep inventing such outrageous claims. Evolution is much more invisable than some people say God is,and there is no evidence for such claims to
support evolution.
http://www.psrast.org/junkdna.htm
http://www.godandscience.org
http://www.jesusislord.com/#evolution
 
When God gave instructions to Adam & Eve,they were human beings,not
animals.

Disregarding your creation belief, humans are animals. Kingdom Animalia, Phylum Chordata, Subphylum Vertebrata, Class Mammalia, Order Primates, Family Hominidae, Genus Homo, Species sapiens. Our species is categorized just like any other living thing.

People use language,and people write words down,animals do not.

So you found one aspect where humans are supperior. Birds can fly; fish can breathe under water; horses can run 40mph. What's your point?

If you're specifically refering to communication, many species have developed methods of communication. We are not the only ones.

There are pictures and ancient writings that prove humans were always human beings.

Is this a joke? What picture proves humans did not evolve from other species? What ancient writing proves humans have not evolved from other species?

Oh, I see. You said "humans have always been humans." This is true. We just evolved from a different species.

Animals do not,even to this very day know how to read and write. random hits and misses on a key board prove this is so with monkeys,dogs,ect.....

Um. Ok. We're still animals. A lot of humans don't know how to read or write. How could we expect a different species to understand a human made system of communication? Although, chimps have learned a lot about numbers and even the alphabet.

We simply cannot denie the evidence of God's design in creation.

Oh, sure you can. In fact its easy. Particularly because there is none. You are using the dreaded method of circular reasoning. Your observation is that the earth exists. Your hypothesis is that god made it. Your evidence is that the earth exists. Do you understand why this is poor logic?


We were made "A Little" lower than the angels,and animals are lower than humans,yet higher than plants.

Feels good to be high on the totem pole, huh? Consider this: What would happen to the animals if all the plants on earth suddenly died? We would die too. What would happen to the plants if all the animals on earth died? Not much. Some that require animals to spread seeds would dwindle or die. Some would die for other reasons, as others took their place. But if all hte animals on earth suddenly died, the plants for the most part woudn't notice a thing. They would probably be a-ok with it.

Our dependance on plants is tremendous. Plant's dependance on us is practically nothing. So we are higher on the totem pole you say?

Everything has an order and rank.

So what are the orders/ranks of the races? Which is superior? Which is inferior?

I know liberals wish everything,not just everyone was created equal but that is just not the way God made the creation of the world,and the sooner people understand and accept this,the better able they will be to understand and accept the truth.

I'm glad you feel some pride that you are better than animals and plants. I'd love to see you at the zoo sometime thumbing your nose at the flamingos childishly chanting "I'm better than you-oo! It says so in the bi-ble!"

I don't think anyone believes we are equal to all living things (vegans, maybe). But most people are able to accept that we are animals. Hey, I'll concede, we're the best animals. Woo-hoo go humans! We're #1 in the animal kingdom!


I cannot say that people and plants and all forms of life are created equal. They just are not!!!

Of course not, everything is different. That's why things are categorized into different species.

Being proud and puffed up only leads to sin and ultimately bitterness,and a hatred for life.

What? Weren't you just saying how we're better than every other living thing? Please clear this up! It sounds like hypocracy.


Humans were not ever recorded in the bible,history,or any where else as being Apes or any kind of animal,not ever,amen.

Hahahaha! History lesson: Writing was developed less than 10,000 years ago. Humans were "apes" (not exactly) millions of years ago. I hope this cleared things up.

We have no genetic simularities to Apes at all,and that is proven today.

I hope you understand I am restraining myself so much. There's a lot of things I want to say, but they would be extremely rude, so I'll just hold it in.

You are wrong. We have significant genetic similarities to primate species. We have a 99% genetic similarity to chimps. Chimps are more closely related to humans than they are to gorillas.

So I don't know who told you that was a proven fact, but you should go back to them and tell them they were wrong.

simular genes as simular as you claim humans are to Apes will be able to
reproduce,but they cannot.

No. If humans and apes could reproduce with viable offspring, they would be the same species. They cannot therefore they are not.

The truth is out about that tall tale. We have no simular DNA or genes that
are even close to being like Apes or monkeys or any other animals or species.

Untrue. Are you making this up? Or did someone tell you this? I'm not trying to be rude; I'm asking a serious question. If you made it up, you should take a biology course. If someone told it to you (you should still take that course) but go back to whomever it was and tell them they were dead wrong.
 
BenjaminTC said:
Disregarding your creation belief, humans are animals. Kingdom Animalia, Phylum Chordata, Subphylum Vertebrata, Class Mammalia, Order Primates, Family Hominidae, Genus Homo, Species sapiens. Our species is categorized just like any other living thing.
When this was made up, it was made to appease the religious. So humans were given their own genus. However, if this were re-done, we should be of the genus "Pan". So we should be "pan sapiens" not "homo sapiens." This is the same genus with chimps.

A good article on this is at http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20030519/chimp.html. Some quotes from it are

"Chimps are more like a human than a gorilla," said Goodman. "The traditional classifications need revising because, as scientists, we've been working under antiquated notions, such as Aristotle's 'Great Chain of Being,' in which animals were arranged in scales according to their degrees of 'perfection' beneath humans."

Goodman added, "In terms of culture, social behavior, language and other factors, we share many things in common with chimpanzees."

"Richard Dawkins perhaps provided the best visual for our link to chimps," Fouts told Discovery News. "Imagine taking the hand of your grandmother, who was holding the hand of her grandmother and so on down the line. 155 miles out, one of the women would be holding the hand of a chimpanzee."


Quath
 
Quath said:
BenjaminTC said:
Disregarding your creation belief, humans are animals. Kingdom Animalia, Phylum Chordata, Subphylum Vertebrata, Class Mammalia, Order Primates, Family Hominidae, Genus Homo, Species sapiens. Our species is categorized just like any other living thing.
When this was made up, it was made to appease the religious. So humans were given their own genus. However, if this were re-done, we should be of the genus "Pan". So we should be "pan sapiens" not "homo sapiens." This is the same genus with chimps.

A good article on this is at http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20030519/chimp.html. Some quotes from it are

"Chimps are more like a human than a gorilla," said Goodman. "The traditional classifications need revising because, as scientists, we've been working under antiquated notions, such as Aristotle's 'Great Chain of Being,' in which animals were arranged in scales according to their degrees of 'perfection' beneath humans."

Goodman added, "In terms of culture, social behavior, language and other factors, we share many things in common with chimpanzees."

"Richard Dawkins perhaps provided the best visual for our link to chimps," Fouts told Discovery News. "Imagine taking the hand of your grandmother, who was holding the hand of her grandmother and so on down the line. 155 miles out, one of the women would be holding the hand of a chimpanzee."


Quath

Great post Quath......the genus classification is quite interesting...you learn something new everyday.

Thanks for sharing.
 
the orders/ranks of the races? Which is superior? Which is inferior?

:o What a silly joke!!!
:Fade-color If this is how you learn and understand things,no wonder you are confused !!!
http://www.ex-atheist.com
 
ThinkerMan said:
Quath said:
BenjaminTC said:
Disregarding your creation belief, humans are animals. Kingdom Animalia, Phylum Chordata, Subphylum Vertebrata, Class Mammalia, Order Primates, Family Hominidae, Genus Homo, Species sapiens. Our species is categorized just like any other living thing.
When this was made up, it was made to appease the religious. So humans were given their own genus. However, if this were re-done, we should be of the genus "Pan". So we should be "pan sapiens" not "homo sapiens." This is the same genus with chimps.

:B-fly: I believe you have this all wrong. For sinful,unrepenting man-kind,their Father is the Father of lies. He is satan the one known as the devil. You may want to try to find out the genus of fallen angels along with
fallen man,o.k?,because this world of fantasy you have made for yourself
is really not helping you make any sense out of reality.
Animals have no simular DNA to humans and no genetics at all that are even close to that of human beings.
Put down the fairy tale rags,and wake up!!!
 
Quath said:
BenjaminTC said:
Disregarding your creation belief,
"Chimps are more like a human than a gorilla," said Goodman. "The traditional classifications need revising because, as scientists, we've been working under antiquated notions, such as Aristotle's 'Great Chain of Being,' in which animals were arranged in scales according to their degrees of 'perfection' beneath humans."

Goodman added, "In terms of culture, social behavior, language and other factors, we share many things in common with chimpanzees."

Quath


:roll: I don't think so!
Greasy monkey love is the closest you can ever get to being related to the
Ape's. What is so odd is why anyone in their right mind would pick the most sex crazed animals to call a relative even if they did believe in evolution?,and why would they also choose the very ones who make the
biggest display of it?

http://www.carmical.net/articles/monkey.html

http://www.enlightened.org.uk/ev07-man.html
 
blueeyeliner said:
Animals have no simular DNA to humans and no genetics at all that are even close to that of human beings.
Put down the fairy tale rags,and wake up!!!
What is a fairy tale? Somethging with observation of experiments behind it or a an old story taken as fact despite evidence against it?

If you are not afraid of the truth, you can look up studies on how similar human and animal DNA is.

What is so odd is why anyone in their right mind would pick the most sex crazed animals to call a relative even if they did believe in evolution?
For one, scientists did not pick our ancestor. The date led them to it. For another, humans are sex craved. What other animal mates when they are not fertile? As far as I know, pygmy chimps are the animals that act the mist like humans sexually.

Quath
 
blueeyeliner said:
the orders/ranks of the races? Which is superior? Which is inferior?

:o What a silly joke!!!
:Fade-color If this is how you learn and understand things,no wonder you are confused !!!
http://www.ex-atheist.com

You are the one that said everything has a rank. By your logic, there should be one to the races. You could have simply said, "Ok, not everything." You just defied your own logic because you said, "Everything has an order and rank."

How about responding to anything else I said? I showed everything you said to be wrong, but you did not respond to anything but this. Got anything else to say?
 
Quath said:
blueeyeliner said:
Animals have no simular DNA to humans and no genetics at all that are even close to that of human beings.
Put down the fairy tale rags,and wake up!!!
What is a fairy tale?

:B-fly: Oh',so you really don't know?
Don't you find it odd that in the last days pagan Babylonian practices are
going to return,and that evolution is among them?
Evolution is pagan,and it's always been a part of pagan religion.
As a real christian,I believe that evolution will become as popular as it did
in ancient times,maybe even more so in the last days,and that it will be a big part in the one world global religious system of the New World Order.
The joining together of all religious beliefs is happening,and Religion is
growing faster than ever before. Note,I didn't say true religion!
Q',I know you'll soon discover this is really happening and know for yourself. I believe you will be saved in The Tribulation if not before then.
These are the times now when all thr true children of God must prepare for whats ahead in the near future. We must prepare mentally and every
way we can,and use the freedom we still have left,because it's the christian like me that will be hated the most and accused of standing in the way of world peace. I believe destiny gave a good description about it
in one of her posts earlier.
If you are forced into accepting a false religious belief,what then?
If you accept pagan evolution you already are an easy target for the
global government thats coming. Please investigate before it's too late!
 
BenjaminTC said:
blueeyeliner said:
the orders/ranks of the races? Which is superior? Which is inferior?

:o What a silly joke!!!
:Fade-color If this is how you learn and understand things,no wonder you are confused !!!
http://www.ex-atheist.com

You are the one that said everything has a rank. By your logic, there should be one to the races. You could have simply said, "Ok, not everything." You just defied your own logic because you said, "Everything has an order and rank."

How about responding to anything else I said? I showed everything you said to be wrong, but you did not respond to anything but this. Got anything else to say?

:B-fly: HELLO"....... I didn't respond to anything else you wrote because
it merely just made no sense to me. You jumped to your own assumptions
so fast,and you don't even understand my post!
All creation has an order. Humans of all races share that order. Humans all came from Adam & Eve. If you think I defied my own logic,just amagine what I think you did to your own!!!
 
That makes absolutely no sense to me!
The Bible says that there is nothing new under the sun.
When dealing with people who obviously don't take the Bible as literal truth, Blueeyeliner, I'm wondering why you insist on appealing to it, as if you can make a point by saying, "The Bible says this." Obviously, one of the things in question when dealing with evolution is the literal interpretation of the Bible, so using Bible-says-so arguments aren't going to be effective.

believe you have this all wrong. For sinful, unrepenting man-kind, their Father is the Father of lies. He is Satan the one known as the devil. You may want to try to find out the genus of fallen angels along with fallen man,o.k?,because this world of fantasy you have made for yourself is really not helping you make any sense out of reality.
Just out of curiousity, Blueeyeliner, what is the difference between a supernatural Biblical figure and an imaginary figure that doesn't exist? In other words, what makes Satan real and the Boogie Man unreal?
This is just for clarification, because you seem pretty darn convinced that this devil you keep mentioning is a real entity, and I simply don't see it that way.

Animals have no simular DNA to humans and no genetics at all that are even close to that of human beings.
Put down the fairy tale rags and wake up!!!
1. We are animals, as has already been pointed out in this discussion.
2. Yes, some animals do have similar DNA to humans, especially the chimps. I mean, just flat out denying it isn't going to make this false. You're trying to deny a confirmed fact here.
3. Similar to the question I made above, what makes the Bible real and a fairy tale unreal? Explain.
4. Shouting and using excessive exclamation points doesn't make one's case more convincing.

Don't you find it odd that in the last days pagan Babylonian practices are going to return, and that evolution is among them?
Evolution is pagan,and it's always been a part of pagan religion.
As a real christian, I believe that evolution will become as popular as it did in ancient times, maybe even more so in the last days, and that it will be a big part in the one world global religious system of the New World Order. .
Evidence please. Where are you getting this from? Where are the ancient Babylonian documents showing that evolution is part of the ancient pagan religion of the Babylonians? Where are you getting this information?

I didn't respond to anything else you wrote because it merely just made no sense to me. You jumped to your own assumptions so fast,and you don't even understand my post!
Finally we get to this. Listen, Blue. It's not fair to accuse your opponent of not understanding your posts and then not explain further. You might want to actually talk about the parts that you think he's not understanding, so that we may benefit from your argument and understand what you're trying to get across.
I would also like to know what parts of his posts "merely just made no sense" to you.

And one of the single biggest things that creationists will get wrong again and again is that they treat the theory of evolution as though it's a anti-theistic propoganda machine. The theory of evolution is not the theory that God doesn't exist. There's nothing about evolution that addresses God or says that he doesn't exist. No one said that you can't have God and evolution at the same time. It just may be a case of re-evaluating which parts of the Bible you take literally and which parts you take figuratively.
Creationists are always trying to assert that in a God-created universe, there can be no evolution. Well, in the words of the great Danish physicist Neils Bohr: stop telling God what to do.
 
Mr. Neil said:
That makes absolutely no sense to me!
The Bible says that there is nothing new under the sun.
When dealing with people who obviously don't take the Bible as literal truth, Blueeyeliner, I'm wondering why you insist on appealing to it, as if you can make a point by saying, "The Bible says this." Obviously, one of the things in question when dealing with evolution is the literal interpretation of the Bible, so using Bible-says-so arguments aren't going to be effective.

:B-fly: Who taught you about evolution? Who do you believe is right
about evolution?
What you tried to do was take various quotes I made and make them
look silly,but why would you do that if you knew something that I
didn't know?
The boogie man and other characters were made up by men.
No man would ever write a book like the holy bible unless God told
them to do it,because none of them could live by it,much less expect
others to do it.
you cannot allow yourself to believe their is a God and a price to pay
for doing evil and for doing wrong.
You just cannot accept God,and there is a great big reason for this,and we all have reasons when it concerns such things,so I truly believe you
cannot accept God because you do not want to be punished for sin.
Perhaps you fear you cannot change? well,you are right! You cannot do it,not alone. You need God and his son,amen.
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-194.htm
http://www.resurrectisis.org/PaganEvolution.htm
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-234.htm
 
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