More Scripture On An Old Question...

[Edward]

Remember a short while back I had made the assertion that since before we were in the womb He knew us, that we were there talking with the Lord, so we probably agreed to be born into the situation that we were?

Someone posted a scripture that said before my days were, or something to that effect and that seemed to clear it up for me and show me I was wrong about that...I've been wrong before, lol...

Except I wasn't wrong. Yesterday I came across a different scripture that sheds even more light upon this. It's in Proverbs...

Proverbs 8:22-31
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.../

So we were with Him even before the earth was created! I thought this made sense to me...

 

[Michael74]

“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion. Proverbs 8:12 NKJV

Chapter 8 seems to be talking about wisdom, not Adam's descendants.

 

[Edward]

“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion. Proverbs 8:12 NKJV

Chapter 8 seems to be talking about wisdom, not Adam's descendants.

I did see that, and your point is well taken and I can not will not dispute what you say.
But when I ran across that scripture, it indeed seemed to speak to me. I have wondered about this before based on 'He knew us before we were in the womb';...and figured well that means we were with Jesus and talked with Him before we were born here. I even prayed about it. The Lord did speak to me about this and said yes I agreed to come be born on earth into this exact family and situation that I was. And the more I learn about our Lord, the more loving and compassionate and kind that He is, is what I am learning how He is. So if the Lord is so nice, and doesn't force Himself on anyone here on earth then He's the same in heaven to every one there also.

He didn't give me this scripture I posted with regard to speaking to me about this, I just found it and thought it clicked for me and supported my idea about being in heaven in spirit before we got our flesh body. So I may be wrong about this scripture, or perhaps it is one of those multi-layered scriptures with more than one meaning, that can only be revealed through the Holy Spirit? I guess I'll pray about it some more. (If the Lord thought it was important enough to speak to me about, then there probably is a scripture which is about this somewhere!)

 

[Edward]

If you think about it, if we were with the Lord before being born here and agreed to our situation beforehand....the implications of that are astounding to me! That would mean...so many things!

 

[JLB]

Remember a short while back I had made the assertion that since before we were in the womb He knew us, that we were there talking with the Lord, so we probably agreed to be born into the situation that we were?

Someone posted a scripture that said before my days were, or something to that effect and that seemed to clear it up for me and show me I was wrong about that...I've been wrong before, lol...

Except I wasn't wrong. Yesterday I came across a different scripture that sheds even more light upon this. It's in Proverbs...

Proverbs 8:22-31
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.../

So we were with Him even before the earth was created! I thought this made sense to me...

Proverbs 8 is referring to Wisdom.


The Spirit of Wisdom.




JLB

 

[JLB]

If you think about it, if we were with the Lord before being born here and agreed to our situation beforehand....the implications of that are astounding to me! That would mean...so many things!

We were.


For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:29




JLB

 

[Michael74]

I have wondered about this before based on 'He knew us before we were in the womb';

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5 NKJV

 

[Michael74]

There seem to be dramatic differences in time frame between Proverbs and Psalms.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Psalm 116:15 KJV

The subject of Psalm 116 was wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Whatever that means.

When there were no depths, I was brought forth; Proverbs 8:24a KJV

Wisdom was brought forth before there were depths.

While as yet he had not made the earth... Proverbs 8:26a KJV

Wisdom was before the earth. Before the heavens.

When he prepared the heavens, I was there: Proverbs 8:27a KVJ

By contrast, the subject of Psalm 116 was wrought in the lowest parts of the earth, suggesting that the lowest parts of the earth had already been wrought.

 

[tdidymas]

Remember a short while back I had made the assertion that since before we were in the womb He knew us, that we were there talking with the Lord, so we probably agreed to be born into the situation that we were?

Someone posted a scripture that said before my days were, or something to that effect and that seemed to clear it up for me and show me I was wrong about that...I've been wrong before, lol...

Except I wasn't wrong. Yesterday I came across a different scripture that sheds even more light upon this. It's in Proverbs...

Proverbs 8:22-31
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.../

So we were with Him even before the earth was created! I thought this made sense to me...

If you are careful to observe the context of scripture, it is less likely to take it out of context. After examination, please observe:

Prov 8:12 "I, wisdom..."

Solomon is using personification as a vehicle to communicate what wisdom is "saying" to mankind. So then, it is not talking about any preexistence of man. Preexistence of man is an idea foreign to scripture. Just because God chose us before the foundation of the world doesn't mean we existed then. It is "according to His foreknowledge" about what He planned to do. Only Christ is incarnated, we are not. We came into existence at our conception to birth, as all men are.

Jer. 1:5 doesn't mean that Jeremiah existed then. God knew him and us before we were born because of His foreknowledge, not because we existed then. I have had many "revelations" that "clicked" with me in the past, but had to abandon them because I learned what scripture actually teaches.
TD

 

[JLB]

If you are careful to observe the context of scripture, it is less likely to take it out of context. After examination, please observe:

Prov 8:12 "I, wisdom..."

Solomon is using personification as a vehicle to communicate what wisdom is "saying" to mankind. So then, it is not talking about any preexistence of man. Preexistence of man is an idea foreign to scripture. Just because God chose us before the foundation of the world doesn't mean we existed then. It is "according to His foreknowledge" about what He planned to do. Only Christ is incarnated, we are not. We came into existence at our conception to birth, as all men are.

Jer. 1:5 doesn't mean that Jeremiah existed then. God knew him and us before we were born because of His foreknowledge, not because we existed then. I have had many "revelations" that "clicked" with me in the past, but had to abandon them because I learned what scripture actually teaches.
TD

I like your perspective, however, “foreknew” seems to mean that He knew us before we were born.


For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29




JLB

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If you think about it, if we were with the Lord before being born here and agreed to our situation beforehand....the implications of that are astounding to me! That would mean...so many things!

I've heard simular perspectives that we were given our life with our own acceptance or even our choice in the matter. Don' t know if it's true or just sounds true to me, but it makes me wonder quite a bit. It would make sense on the grounds of God's all knowing-ness in conjunction with our free will to choose God or choose anything else in life.

The hard part of this though if if it is real and true, then what does that say about those who due without knowing God? It would be more then choosing a bad decision, a hard life, or a rotten attitude, because all of these things can be in a person's life tgat refine them, challenge them, and help them reach others like them or in their own way to finally finding God and appreciate God all the more. But to have a loose choice on matters you'll do, mistakes and successes, choices, and who knows what else. Who could fathom to choose to not know God? Yet this is a reality that many many people don't know God throughout their lives.

A lot of implications indeed. But I can't help but wonder that it might be true that we all are part of the choice of our lives even before we are born. Or if not choosing it we at least agreed to it in large points of life.

 

[tdidymas]

I like your perspective, however, “foreknew” seems to mean that He knew us before we were born.


For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29




JLB

It's not a stretch to say before we were born is before we existed. It is a stretch to say we preexisted, since nothing in scripture says that. In Ps. 139, David speaks of days being ordained before there was any of them, which implies a beginning of existence. Therefore, from my perspective, the foreknowledge of God has to do with God's plan and purpose from the beginning of creation for those who would be brought into existence in the future of that beginning.

Further, to claim that we preexisted, and for that reason God "knew" us and predestined us in this life, is to deny the idea of Total Depravity, that God found a worthiness in us to elect us apart from others. But such worthiness is denied in Total Depravity. Eph. 2:1-2 implies that before we became believers, we were no different than any other unbeliever. Therefore we have nothing to boast about, not even an idea of a preexistent agreement. God chose us out of His own purpose, not caused by anything in us. Grace is unmerited.
TD

 

[JLB]

Further, to claim that we preexisted, and for that reason God "knew" us and predestined us in this life, is to deny the idea of Total Depravity,

Was Adam totally depraved when he was created?


Were angels totally depraved when they were crested?




JLB

 

[tdidymas]

Was Adam totally depraved when he was created?


Were angels totally depraved when they were crested?




JLB

I take it you don't believe in the doctrine of Total Depravity then?
And then you also don't believe man has a sinful nature?
And thus you don't believe in the fall of man?

If I don't understand your point, can you please clarify?
TD

 

[JLB]

I take it you don't believe in the doctrine of Total Depravity then?

If you show me in the Bible where there is a doctrine of total depravity, then I will believe it.

I believe we are to obey the doctrine of Christ.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Do you believe the scriptures?


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7




JLB

 

[JLB]

And then you also don't believe man has a sinful nature?

I do believe man inherited a sin nature.


I also believe, those who believe the Gospel receive a new divine nature.



JLB

 

[JLB]

If I don't understand your point, can you please clarify?

My first question was fairly simple.


Was Adam totally depraved when he disobeyed God.


IOW, Did God created Adam as totally depraved?


Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31


Does God see a totally depraved mankind that He created as good?





JLB

 

[tdidymas]

My first question was fairly simple.


Was Adam totally depraved when he disobeyed God.


IOW, Did God created Adam as totally depraved?


Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31


Does God see a totally depraved mankind that He created as good?





JLB

Adam did not lose his natural faculties when he fell. He lost contact with the Spirit as his guide, since he chose to be his own guide, and that is how the sinful nature came to mankind, since his progeny was made in his image (as opposed to God's). So, Adam decided to sin when he was sinless. God did not create Adam with a sinful nature, as that was acquired. The sin nature (principle) is the inclination to sin against God, because there is not a natural following the Spirit function.

Yes, God sees a totally depraved mankind. This is why the wrath of God abides on everyone who is not born again. This is spiritual reality, not natural reality. People often get them mixed up.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I do believe man inherited a sin nature.


I also believe, those who believe the Gospel receive a new divine nature.



JLB

We become partakers of divine nature, we do not receive a divine nature - there is a difference. Partaking of divine nature (2 Pet. 1) means the same thing as drinking of the Spirit. We are drawing from God's divinity. I don't know what you mean by "receive a divine nature." If you mean that we become divine, then I disagree. Glorification is a more perfect state of partaking of divine nature.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

If you show me in the Bible where there is a doctrine of total depravity, then I will believe it.

I believe we are to obey the doctrine of Christ.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


Do you believe the scriptures?


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7




JLB

The only way we rule over sin is by faith. We do not have the power to rule over sin by ourselves or by our own will-power. We must operate by the power of God, since Paul wrote in Rom. 8:13 "if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh..." 1 Jn. 5:4 "this is what overcomes the world, even our faith."

The doctrine of Total Depravity is taught by Paul in various places:
1 Cor. 2:14-15 - "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned." - In context, this means that someone not born again cannot believe and obey the gospel.
Rom. 3:10-18 "There is none righteous, no, not one..." - This is a description of every person who has yet to trust Christ for redemption.
Eph. 2: 3 "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Notice that Paul included himself here, who could boast that according to the law he was blameless (before he was converted). But here he admits that before his conversion he was hopelessly lost in sin and "without God in the world."

These are just a few places of many that show the true condition of man's spiritual nature. Paul uses many such ideas as: "blinded so they cannot see the light of the gospel," "held captive by the devil to do his will," "cannot please God," "sold in bondage to sin," etc. Jesus also said (John 8:32) "He who sins is a slave to sin." John also wrote in 1 John 5:19 "the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (of course, with the exception of Christians).

It is unfortunate that people get this spiritual truth mixed up with what they assess as their natural ability. "I have a natural free-will, therefore I am able to make right moral choices," etc. And so, just as the evolutionist sees a change in variety within a species, they greatly extrapolate change to conclude that man arose out of primordial slime, in the same way people see their minuscule ability to make limited choices in this life and greatly extrapolate it to thinking they can choose to become born again, which only God can do.

The example is Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Jesus said "you must be born again," wherein Nicodemus replied "how do I do that?" Wherein Jesus replied "you can't, only the Spirit can cause it." It is not in our power to choose spiritual rebirth, only God can do it, therefore we have no choice but to trust God to make it happen; or, trust Him to have made it happen. It is this kind of trust in Christ's redeeming power that begins to deliver us from the sins we were enslaved to.

So, that is what Total Depravity means - it is an inability to believe and obey the gospel, and therefore an inability to obey God, until God makes it happen by His unmerited grace. It is an enslavement to sin, from which only the power of Christ can deliver us. Paul describes this in Rom. 7.

Another confusion about this doctrine is that people confuse the pre-regenerate state of total depravity with the post-regenerate state of righteousness in Christ, which is a spiritual condition, not a natural condition. Because they confuse the natural dimension with the spiritual, they then think a Christian is totally depraved after being born again, because he still sees himself commit sins. Again, a confusion. In this life, we are in a process of being sanctified, in which we are becoming more Christlike in character, so we are being delivered from the power of sin, that is from the effects and consequences of the former state of depravity. Another way to say it is being transformed. We have been saved in the spiritual dimension, are being saved in the condition of our soul, and will be saved in body.

If studying the verses I cited in their context (which is not exhaustive, as there are many others throughout both the OT and NT) doesn't convince you of this idea, then I seriously doubt that any discussion will.
TD