More Scripture On An Old Question...

[JLB]

Yes, God sees a totally depraved mankind. This is why the wrath of God abides on everyone who is not born again. This is spiritual reality, not natural reality. People often get them mixed up.
TD

If Cain was then totally depraved, as you say, he still had the ability to choose to sin or not.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7



JLB

 

[JLB]

We become partakers of divine nature, we do not receive a divine nature - there is a difference. Partaking of divine nature (2 Pet. 1) means the same thing as drinking of the Spirit. We are drawing from God's divinity. I don't know what you mean by "receive a divine nature." If you mean that we become divine, then I disagree. Glorification is a more perfect state of partaking of divine nature.
TD

We all of like precious faith, have been given all things that pertain to eternal life and godliness, so that we may continue to be transformed into the image of His Son.

This process is for born again Christians who have received His divine power so that we may obey Him and be partakers of the divine nature, in this process of becoming His sons.



To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 1:1-4


This is the work of the Holy Spirit, dwelling within the believer, to empower us to become sons of God.


But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12



JLB

 

[JLB]

The doctrine of Total Depravity is taught by Paul in various places:
1 Cor. 2:14-15 - "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit, for they are spiritually discerned." - In context, this means that someone not born again cannot believe and obey the gospel.

Not true at all.

In fact it’s completely backwards.

The only way for a person who is not born again, to become born again, is to obey the Gospel.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:21-22


It is by the power of the Holy Spirit, when the Gospel is preached, that we are able to obey the truth.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


This is how faith operates.

Faith comes when we hear the Gospel message.

We then must obey what we hear, that produced faith, for it to be activated to produce the intended divine result.

First comes the hearing of faith, then we respond in obedience.


Faith without this obedient response is dead.



JLB

 

[tdidymas]

Not true at all.

In fact it’s completely backwards.

The only way for a person who is not born again, to become born again, is to obey the Gospel.

According to 1 Cor. 2:14-15 a person not born again cannot obey the gospel. A person must first be made spiritual in order to understand the spiritual nature of the gospel. In order to rely on God's supernatural working, you first have to have been initiated with spiritual understanding and wisdom, which is the gift of God.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:21-22

This happens after conversion

It is by the power of the Holy Spirit, when the Gospel is preached, that we are able to obey the truth.

Exactly why a person must be born again first.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16

Exactly why a person must be born again in order to believe, it is by the power of God, not by man's "free will."

This is how faith operates.

Faith comes when we hear the Gospel message.

Agreed, and faith comes as a divine gift - Eph. 2:8

We then must obey what we hear, that produced faith, for it to be activated to produce the intended divine result.

Faith produces obedience, so you seem to have it backward here. We respond to God, not the other way.

First comes the hearing of faith, then we respond in obedience.

agreed.

Faith without this obedient response is dead.
JLB

James is saying that faith w/o "fruit meet unto repentance" is dead - that is, just a theory, not real. Genuine faith is that which proves itself by the works of love.

You must first believe in God's love before you can exercise it. You must first believe in Christ's redemption before you can obey the message. It is the gift of God, not a gift from ourselves.

Therefore, if you are denying the doctrine of spiritual Total Depravity for people in the natural state (not born again), then this is where our paths diverge.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

We all of like precious faith, have been given all things that pertain to eternal life and godliness, so that we may continue to be transformed into the image of His Son.

This process is for born again Christians who have received His divine power so that we may obey Him and be partakers of the divine nature, in this process of becoming His sons.



To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2 Peter 1:1-4


This is the work of the Holy Spirit, dwelling within the believer, to empower us to become sons of God.


But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12



JLB

I agree with this.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

If Cain was then totally depraved, as you say, he still had the ability to choose to sin or not.


If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7



JLB

There is another description of total depravity by comparing the 2 different spiritual conditions of Adam:

1. Before Adam fell, he had ability to sin and ability to not sin.
2. After Adam fell, he had ability to sin, but NOT ability to not sin.

State 2 is what we find ourselves in, even as believers.

"Total Depravity" might not be a clear and representive term for the idea. Especially since so many people, including Christians, are confused about it. I would prefer the idea of unregenerate for the unbeliever and regenerate for the believer. The unregenerate do not have ability to obey God in the spiritual domain, since they are dead in sin.

And since faith pleases God (is obedience), the unregenerate do not have the ability to believe in Christ (that is, trust Him for redemption from sin). It takes an act of God for that gift to be imparted to a person in which they can exercise it to obey the gospel.

This is why Paul defines grace in this manner: (Eph. 2) "Even while we were dead in sin, God raised us up and seated us in the heavenly places in Christ (by grace are we saved)."

It is then that we are enabled to obey the gospel by trusting Christ and repenting from sin.
TD

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

The how and the why of our state of both sin and faith are in God's hands. So instead lets just simplify it to what God has given us and put into our own responsibility.

Here is what He says over and over again.

1) Turn from your sins, repent, and turn to God. So that He might heal you and save you.

2) it is by faith that we are saved not by works. This shows the difference between a faithful man who acts on his faith compared to a Pharisee who praise themselves and look the part, but their faith is not really there. To make this point clearer Jesus compared a repentant sinner who in his sorrow stayed in the back of the temple and kept his eyes on the ground, to a confident Pharisee who did all the right things. And in his confidance or arrogance thanked God that he was not like that sinner in the back (apparently his reputation proceeded him). But Jesus said that the repentant sinner was the one sanctified before God not the Pharisee.

The how and why we are saved and remain in God's protection is in His hands more then they are in our own. Because Jesus also said to His desciples that could not come to Him unless the Father brought them to Jesus. But what is in our hands our ability is to 1) repent and turn to God. And 2) have faith in God and believe in Jesus who God sent.

I don't think the order of which comes first matters. Repentance and following the comands, or faith and reliance and the LORD. They both are what we do to come to Him and are both what we are called to do.

I'm sorry tdidymas and JLB, but you both seem to be arguing over the order that we are suppose to do things, have faith or follow God, and which one is needed to be saved. Instead of acknowledging that the bible calls for us to do both. I'm sure both of you are as aware as I am of people who have found God by first believing in Him and having faith in Him, though they were sinning and had no direction to get better; as well as aware of people who by following God's teachings and "trying them out," they were saved to then come to believe in God and seek Him. Or their faith grew because it was weak before and they were unsure, on the fence of the Christianity they were raised with. I've heard of testimonies for both. Surely so have you.

 

[JLB]

I'm sorry @tdidymas and @JLB, but you both seem to be arguing over the order that we are suppose to do things, have faith or follow God, and which one is needed to be saved.

His claim is Calvinism, that in order to believe, we must first be saved.


This is backwards from the scripture.


In order to be saved, we must believe, is what the Bible teaches.




JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

We are the very breath/spirit given by and of God that made us a living soul from the womb. I believe it is only that breath/spirit that was kept in heaven until we were conceived in our mothers womb as when we die that is what returns back to Him, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12.

Psalms 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well....................ESV, For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Scriptures like this one in Jeremiah only speak of God selecting those who would be His prophets before they were born, but I have never found scripture that says any of us where in heaven before we were born, but only the breath/spirit that made us a living soul.

 

[tdidymas]

The how and the why of our state of both sin and faith are in God's hands. So instead lets just simplify it to what God has given us and put into our own responsibility.

Here is what He says over and over again.

1) Turn from your sins, repent, and turn to God. So that He might heal you and save you.

2) it is by faith that we are saved not by works. This shows the difference between a faithful man who acts on his faith compared to a Pharisee who praise themselves and look the part, but their faith is not really there. To make this point clearer Jesus compared a repentant sinner who in his sorrow stayed in the back of the temple and kept his eyes on the ground, to a confident Pharisee who did all the right things. And in his confidance or arrogance thanked God that he was not like that sinner in the back (apparently his reputation proceeded him). But Jesus said that the repentant sinner was the one sanctified before God not the Pharisee.

The how and why we are saved and remain in God's protection is in His hands more then they are in our own. Because Jesus also said to His desciples that could not come to Him unless the Father brought them to Jesus. But what is in our hands our ability is to 1) repent and turn to God. And 2) have faith in God and believe in Jesus who God sent.

I don't think the order of which comes first matters. Repentance and following the comands, or faith and reliance and the LORD. They both are what we do to come to Him and are both what we are called to do.

I'm sorry tdidymas and JLB, but you both seem to be arguing over the order that we are suppose to do things, have faith or follow God, and which one is needed to be saved. Instead of acknowledging that the bible calls for us to do both. I'm sure both of you are as aware as I am of people who have found God by first believing in Him and having faith in Him, though they were sinning and had no direction to get better; as well as aware of people who by following God's teachings and "trying them out," they were saved to then come to believe in God and seek Him. Or their faith grew because it was weak before and they were unsure, on the fence of the Christianity they were raised with. I've heard of testimonies for both. Surely so have you.

Sorry that you are misunderstanding. My posts are not about "how we are supposed to do things" at all. I am trying to convey what the apostle Paul writes how things actually happened with us. Since we as humans have very little understanding of our condition, we have to be told by God how things really are. This is what scripture does for us, so that we can gain understanding in our faith about the nature of our relationship with God. This is part of being transformed by the renewing of our minds. When we have understanding of the true nature of our relationship with God, our faith becomes pure. It is a big part of the maturing and sanctification process. If we don't get it right, our faith is hindered.

Incidentally, it is impossible to follow God apart from faith. Heb. 11:6.
TD