Bible Study Must we be born again?

[JLB]

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

What some of them were. (past tense)
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men a nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God

Man baptizes with water God baptizes with the Spirit
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus is the way. Before they were called Christians the movement was called the way.

The Spirit is the Fathers promise given through Jesus. It is a sign to us that we are members of the body of Christ and those God, not man, calls His children. Those in a covenant relationship with God. The inward circumcision of our hearts by the Spirit of Christ - for the Spirit is sent through Him and in His name.

There was importance given in this circumcision
.and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Even so Jesus is not limited by these words. He judges by HIS righteousness. Otherwise little children of people of other faiths who die would be condemned. However no one who has the Spirit in them at death will die. For God can not disown Himself.

So the Spirit is a sign to us that we belong to Jesus. That we are washed, sanctified and justified in that union as one with Christ Jesus. And that Spirit helps us in our weaknesses. As was taught He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world.

Jesus entered the true tabernacle in heaven by His blood. He purchased the many for God by His blood. There was no other way possible. Jesus submitted to the Fathers will and endured the agony of the cross all for those God would give Him.

Good stuff Randy.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Must we be born again?

And what exactly does this mean?

Jesus said we must be born again...or we cannot see the Kingdom of God.
John 3:3 NASB

Jesus said we must be born of spirit...or we cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
John 3:5

Do the following all have the same meaning?:
Born Again
Born from Above
Born of the Spirit
Born of God

Is being justified the same as being born again?
Job 25:4 Bildad asked: How can man be justified with God? (some versions read "just")
Isaiah 45:25....in the Lord shall Israel be justified.

And what about Mathew 12:37? Jesus said:
"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned".

Again a great topic and questions that needs attention, but I'm sure about how many times have you all might have read:

In answer to your 1st. question: Is yes, we all as Christians, must be born again: The nature of the seed by which we have been born of God is manifestly “incorruptible”, so that its progeny must be incorruptible as well. “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever” (I Peter 1:22-25).

"You Must Be Born Again"
John 3:1-21 - Bible Study


"You Must Be Born Again"
Very little is known about Nicodemus, except that He was a highly educated, well to do ruler and teacher in the Jewish community, who came by night wanting to be taught by Jesus.

John 3:1-21:
Verses 1-2: "Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

2This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."

His later actions indicate that, in His encounter with Jesus, he had learned what it meant to be born again. Nicodemus was a changed man, with a new understanding of God, and himself.

Verse 3: "Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Verse 4: "Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"

Here Nicodemus seems to be ridiculing Jesus' Words, and even rejecting the idea that being born again was possible, or even necessary.

Verse 5: "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

The water: Volumes have been written. Still, opinions vary concerning precisely what John meant by, "born of water."
The Hebrews used terms such as "water" in describing natural childbirth, and there was a Jewish immersion for cleansing. In fact, the Jews had many cleansing rituals, but Nicodemus would have understood any of these.

Also, in the associated Scripture, Nicodemus does not seem to have a problem with the term, "Born of water," but of being "born again of the Spirit."

Here, and throughout the New Testament, the New Believer is instructed, and even perhaps commanded, to be baptized in water.

Water Baptism is a part of the born again experience, but it alone cannot wash away our sins, that is only possible through the blood of Jesus, and what He did on the cross.

Salvation:

The "Spirit: To be born again of the Spirit is to invite Jesus into one's being verbally. The Holy Spirit of God then enters and abides within the Believer.

Water baptism: Is to confirm, and signify that rebirth. The New Believer is baptized in water, in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This baptism is known as the Christian Baptism.

Verse 6: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
God is three persons in One: God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Nicodemus, like most of us, understood the meaning of being born in the flesh. He was now receiving a message from the Master on what it meant to be born again of the Spirit.
We will see in the following verses how Jesus helped Nicodemus to believe and understand the new birth.

Verses 7-8: "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The Holy Spirit works in us in ways we cannot see or understand. While we can certainly understand the part where we ask Him into our lives and Become a Child of God, receiving the Spirit cannot be seen; nevertheless, like a mighty wind, its existence is undeniable!

Verses 9-10: "Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?"

Nicodemus knew the law thoroughly and was a teacher of the Bible, yet could not grasp the born-again message. It is not enough to know what the Bible say's, we must have a personal encounter with Jesus, and this was Nicodemus' day.

So it is with the natural man who insists on comprehending the things of God, it is by faith only. God's wisdom is far above our own. Man cannot reason on God's level, nor comprehend the why and wherefore of His plans and ways.

Verses 11-12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.

12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

Only an eyewitness of Heaven could fully testify about Heaven, and here Jesus begins to witness of them to Nicodemus.

Verse 13: "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Here Jesus claims to be God's messenger, who descended out of Heaven and became a man.

Verse 14-15: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

"Lifted up:

"A bronze serpent in the wilderness was placed on a tall pole so that the people who had sinned could look upon the serpent on the pole, and live, (Num 21:7-9).

Like the bronze serpent, Jesus was placed on a cross made of poles to die for the sins of the world. All who believe, ask, and look to Him, will be born again and receive eternal life.

For God So Loved the World

Verse 16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16 is one of the most well known and loved verses in the Bible. This beautifully written Scripture says it all so clearly.
This Scripture has been the basis for entire ministries and countless sermons. For many, it represents the most accurate concept for the plan of salvation of any single verse in the Bible.

Eternal life means, "Life of the world to come." John's present tense, "have" indicates that those who trust in Jesus have begun to experience that life already, (in the present time). (IVP Bible Background Commentary)

Verse 17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

The leaders of Israel were expecting a Messiah who would drive the Romans out of their country and place all peoples, other than Israel, under judgment; but John said that God had not sent Jesus to condemn, but to save the whole world.

Verse 18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Faith in Jesus will deliver the Believer from eternal punishment. The unbeliever, however, is under total condemnation because of his rejection of the only way to reach heaven, and that is faith in Jesus.

Verse 19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

Since Jesus had not come to condemn the world, we see this verse as a self-induced judgment. Jesus is the light of the world, the fate of each rest upon the decision to either accept or reject that Light.
And Verse 20 say's:

Verse 20: "For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

Light and dark have always been associated with good and evil. Wicked people fear the Light that illuminates darkness, and, because of the discomfort of their condemned conscience, stay as far as possible away from any study, or discussion of God's Word.

Verse 21: "But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

The person with the honest and good heart loves the truth, desires to walk uprightly, and wants to know God's will. Rather than avoiding, he seeks the light, and shuns the works of darkness.

Jesus chose to use His discussion with Nicodemus to bring these great truths to the world. There is only one way to reach Heaven, and that is through Jesus Christ. To become a Child of God and enter Heaven, one must be born again.
This concludes our study of, "Ye Must be Born Again."

2. And what exactly does this mean?

I think we must be born of the water and by His spirit as He have said.

3. Do the following all have the same meaning?:
Born Again
Born from Above
Born of the Spirit
Born of God

Yes, I believe soo, I think that these 4 all comes from the same person.

4. Is being justified the same as being born again?

I believe your scriptures proves of what they are saying.

Faith Obeys The Word: James 1:19-27

The above is only my belief, and which stands for correction.

Love always Walter and Debbie

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering,
Great questions, I've never thought about it like that, so lets see what I can come up with.
First, repentance is not the same as forgiveness. Repentance is understanding that you've sinned (Missed the mark on how God wants us to live) and then making it right.

Luke 3:12-14 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Forgiveness actually benefits us as much as the one who did us wrong in that it leaves a door open for reconciliation.
Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

We're going to get into the meaning of words here, and I really dislike this because I see that we will not agree.

You said that repentance is understanding that you've sinned, and then making it right. When one repents, it includes the forgivness of sin. The steps are: I repent and am sinned. It's simultaneous. What else would have to happen?

Acts 3:19
"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; "

Repentance carries with it forgiveness.

The best example I can give is Jesus on the cross.
Matthew 27:24-25 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Yet Jesus says,
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

This is crucial because on the day of Pentecost, we see these same people that crucified Jesus come to the realization that they committed a grave mistake. Because Jesus asked for their forgiveness, it left room for them to repent.

You're discussing why it's important for us to forgive each other...
I, OTOH, am discussing God forgiving US.

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

They crucified Jesus and the fruit of their repentance is seen numerically. Like Paul who was a enemy of Christ, these 3,000 also turned to make disciples as noted by the multitudes that were baptized within the adjoining chapters.

Here you're agreeing that to repent means to be forgiven.
This is my only point.

As far as the Kingdom of Heaven, it's worthy to note that this phrase is used in Matthew's gospel since he is writing to a Jewish community. In the other gospels it is called the Kingdom of God.

Jesus starts his gospel of the Kingdom in Matthew 5 in what we know as the b attitudes. The Kingdom of Heaven (on earth) is created when we do God's will on earth. As Jesus teaches us to pray in that same sermon, "Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven". It's about what we do and why we do it because what we do makes a difference. I could write much more, but this is already getting lengthy.

Agreed.

Did I say that the that the sacrificial system was not in force yet at the time of John the Baptist? If I did, that was a huge typo on my end lol!

The only thing I think needs to be mentioned is that John the Baptist was the forerunner preparing the way for Jesus under the Sinai Covenant. The new covenant in the Blood of Jesus does not occur until the Crucifixion. Under the Sinai Covenant, forgiveness from God occurred at the Alter. Under the new covenant, we have Jesus as our High Priest and the cross functions as the altar.

Agreed.

This new Covenant was mentioned by Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (we understand that the word testament is the same word covenant).

Agreed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

What some of them were. (past tense)
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men a nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God

Man baptizes with water God baptizes with the Spirit
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus is the way. Before they were called Christians the movement was called the way.

The Spirit is the Fathers promise given through Jesus. It is a sign to us that we are members of the body of Christ and those God, not man, calls His children. Those in a covenant relationship with God. The inward circumcision of our hearts by the Spirit of Christ - for the Spirit is sent through Him and in His name.

There was importance given in this circumcision
.and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

Even so Jesus is not limited by these words. He judges by HIS righteousness. Otherwise little children of people of other faiths who die would be condemned. However no one who has the Spirit in them at death will die. For God can not disown Himself.

So the Spirit is a sign to us that we belong to Jesus. That we are washed, sanctified and justified in that union as one with Christ Jesus. And that Spirit helps us in our weaknesses. As was taught He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world.

Jesus entered the true tabernacle in heaven by His blood. He purchased the many for God by His blood. There was no other way possible. Jesus submitted to the Fathers will and endured the agony of the cross all for those God would give Him.

Great post !

 

[GodsGrace]

Again a great topic and questions that needs attention, but I'm sure about how many times have you all might have read:

In answer to your 1st. question: Is yes, we all as Christians, must be born again: The nature of the seed by which we have been born of God is manifestly “incorruptible”, so that its progeny must be incorruptible as well. “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever” (I Peter 1:22-25).

"You Must Be Born Again"
John 3:1-21 - Bible Study


"You Must Be Born Again"
Very little is known about Nicodemus, except that He was a highly educated, well to do ruler and teacher in the Jewish community, who came by night wanting to be taught by Jesus.

John 3:1-21:
Verses 1-2: "Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

2This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."

His later actions indicate that, in His encounter with Jesus, he had learned what it meant to be born again. Nicodemus was a changed man, with a new understanding of God, and himself.

Verse 3: "Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Verse 4: "Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"

Here Nicodemus seems to be ridiculing Jesus' Words, and even rejecting the idea that being born again was possible, or even necessary.

Verse 5: "Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

The water: Volumes have been written. Still, opinions vary concerning precisely what John meant by, "born of water."
The Hebrews used terms such as "water" in describing natural childbirth, and there was a Jewish immersion for cleansing. In fact, the Jews had many cleansing rituals, but Nicodemus would have understood any of these.

Also, in the associated Scripture, Nicodemus does not seem to have a problem with the term, "Born of water," but of being "born again of the Spirit."

Here, and throughout the New Testament, the New Believer is instructed, and even perhaps commanded, to be baptized in water.

Water Baptism is a part of the born again experience, but it alone cannot wash away our sins, that is only possible through the blood of Jesus, and what He did on the cross.

Salvation:

The "Spirit: To be born again of the Spirit is to invite Jesus into one's being verbally. The Holy Spirit of God then enters and abides within the Believer.

Water baptism: Is to confirm, and signify that rebirth. The New Believer is baptized in water, in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This baptism is known as the Christian Baptism.

Verse 6: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
God is three persons in One: God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Nicodemus, like most of us, understood the meaning of being born in the flesh. He was now receiving a message from the Master on what it meant to be born again of the Spirit.
We will see in the following verses how Jesus helped Nicodemus to believe and understand the new birth.

Verses 7-8: "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The Holy Spirit works in us in ways we cannot see or understand. While we can certainly understand the part where we ask Him into our lives and Become a Child of God, receiving the Spirit cannot be seen; nevertheless, like a mighty wind, its existence is undeniable!

Verses 9-10: "Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?"

Nicodemus knew the law thoroughly and was a teacher of the Bible, yet could not grasp the born-again message. It is not enough to know what the Bible say's, we must have a personal encounter with Jesus, and this was Nicodemus' day.

So it is with the natural man who insists on comprehending the things of God, it is by faith only. God's wisdom is far above our own. Man cannot reason on God's level, nor comprehend the why and wherefore of His plans and ways.

Verses 11-12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.

12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

Only an eyewitness of Heaven could fully testify about Heaven, and here Jesus begins to witness of them to Nicodemus.

Verse 13: "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Here Jesus claims to be God's messenger, who descended out of Heaven and became a man.

Verse 14-15: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

"Lifted up:

"A bronze serpent in the wilderness was placed on a tall pole so that the people who had sinned could look upon the serpent on the pole, and live, (Num 21:7-9).

Like the bronze serpent, Jesus was placed on a cross made of poles to die for the sins of the world. All who believe, ask, and look to Him, will be born again and receive eternal life.

For God So Loved the World

Verse 16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16 is one of the most well known and loved verses in the Bible. This beautifully written Scripture says it all so clearly.
This Scripture has been the basis for entire ministries and countless sermons. For many, it represents the most accurate concept for the plan of salvation of any single verse in the Bible.

Eternal life means, "Life of the world to come." John's present tense, "have" indicates that those who trust in Jesus have begun to experience that life already, (in the present time). (IVP Bible Background Commentary)

Verse 17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

The leaders of Israel were expecting a Messiah who would drive the Romans out of their country and place all peoples, other than Israel, under judgment; but John said that God had not sent Jesus to condemn, but to save the whole world.

Verse 18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Faith in Jesus will deliver the Believer from eternal punishment. The unbeliever, however, is under total condemnation because of his rejection of the only way to reach heaven, and that is faith in Jesus.

Verse 19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil."

Since Jesus had not come to condemn the world, we see this verse as a self-induced judgment. Jesus is the light of the world, the fate of each rest upon the decision to either accept or reject that Light.
And Verse 20 say's:

Verse 20: "For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

Light and dark have always been associated with good and evil. Wicked people fear the Light that illuminates darkness, and, because of the discomfort of their condemned conscience, stay as far as possible away from any study, or discussion of God's Word.

Verse 21: "But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

The person with the honest and good heart loves the truth, desires to walk uprightly, and wants to know God's will. Rather than avoiding, he seeks the light, and shuns the works of darkness.

Jesus chose to use His discussion with Nicodemus to bring these great truths to the world. There is only one way to reach Heaven, and that is through Jesus Christ. To become a Child of God and enter Heaven, one must be born again.
This concludes our study of, "Ye Must be Born Again."

2. And what exactly does this mean?

I think we must be born of the water and by His spirit as He have said.

3. Do the following all have the same meaning?:
Born Again
Born from Above
Born of the Spirit
Born of God

Yes, I believe soo, I think that these 4 all comes from the same person.

4. Is being justified the same as being born again?

I believe your scriptures proves of what they are saying.

Faith Obeys The Word: James 1:19-27

The above is only my belief, and which stands for correction.

Love always Walter and Debbie

Great post!
So many good posts this evening.


John 3:6 helped me very much to understand how we must be born two times: Once by natural birth and flesh...and once by spirit, to commune with God.

Later I learned the water could mean Baptism...I could accept either belief.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for sharing. Your passion is really awesome.

Could you clarify a little for us what you mean by this statement?



I mean Peter mentions baptism, as well as antitype and Noah and the Ark.

Why would you say it has nothing to do with baptism or a type?



who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21-22


Thanks JLB

This is interesting.

2 Peter 2:5-6 does not sound as if anyone is saved by water, but all are destroyed by the water.

However, The Ark can be seen to be what is saving Noah's family and is usually referred to as a "type" of Christ.

The NASB says that they were brought safely through the water.

I don't see how the flood water could signify anything but destruction....

1 Peter 3:20 NASB
20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

Right after that, it does state that "corresponding to that baptism now saves you".

I can't understand this.

 

[stovebolts]

We're going to get into the meaning of words here, and I really dislike this because I see that we will not agree.

You said that repentance is understanding that you've sinned, and then making it right. When one repents, it includes the forgivness of sin. The steps are: I repent and am sinned. It's simultaneous. What else would have to happen?

Hi wondering,
It's ok if we disagree, especially on this matter.
First, there is a difference between repentance and forgiveness. They are not synonyms which is to say they are not different words with the same meaning. Each carries it's own meaning.

I made a mistake putting my last post together, so let me see if i can clear things up.

Under the Sinai covenant, if one sinned they were to repent ( stop breaking a commandment and make a mental point to start fulfilling the commandment).
Then, one would go to the other and ask for forgiveness if possible. This is not always possible due to death, distance etc.
Then, one would offer their sacrifice to the Lord. I recall specifically a passage in Torah that linked forgiveness from God with a sacrifice. I'll look for it this weekend. In the meantime, there is this one.

Leviticus 17:11: "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the altar to provide atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul.

The whole sacrificial system was to show that there was penalty for transgressing Gods law, but it also taught that forgiveness came at a cost. However, Jews viewed the idea of sacrifice not as penalty or loss, but rather, they focused on the idea of drawing closer to God. This idea is at the root meaning of Jewish sacrifice.

This was the world John the Baptist lived in and it's the world Jesus lived in.

When Jesus forgave the lame, it stirred controversy from the religious leaders, after all, sins were atoned for with God at the altar. They simply did not understand who Jesus was.

That was then, but what about Acts 2? Repent AND be baptized AND your sins will be forgiven.

It wasn't simply repenting according to Peter. One ALSO should be baptized in order to receive forgiveness. It was a package deal.

And what made this possible? It was the new covenant spoken by Jeremiah through our Lord and savior Jesus Christ to which we participate in through communion.

Within this new covenant, this is what John has to say.

1
John 1:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

What a blessing! No more running to an altar. Please notice that we must confess our sins.

So, where is repentance? It's only a few verses up.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

And so we see repentance and confession working together for the forgiveness of sins for those who are members of this new and glorious covenant.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering,
It's ok if we disagree, especially on this matter.
First, there is a difference between repentance and forgiveness. They are not synonyms which is to say they are not different words with the same meaning. Each carries it's own meaning.

I made a mistake putting my last post together, so let me see if i can clear things up.

Under the Sinai covenant, if one sinned they were to repent ( stop breaking a commandment and make a mental point to start fulfilling the commandment).
Then, one would go to the other and ask for forgiveness if possible. This is not always possible due to death, distance etc.
Then, one would offer their sacrifice to the Lord. I recall specifically a passage in Torah that linked forgiveness from God with a sacrifice. I'll look for it this weekend. In the meantime, there is this one.

Leviticus 17:11: "For the soul of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the altar to provide atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that atones for the soul.

The whole sacrificial system was to show that there was penalty for transgressing Gods law, but it also taught that forgiveness came at a cost. However, Jews viewed the idea of sacrifice not as penalty or loss, but rather, they focused on the idea of drawing closer to God. This idea is at the root meaning of Jewish sacrifice.

This was the world John the Baptist lived in and it's the world Jesus lived in.

When Jesus forgave the lame, it stirred controversy from the religious leaders, after all, sins were atoned for with God at the altar. They simply did not understand who Jesus was.

That was then, but what about Acts 2? Repent AND be baptized AND your sins will be forgiven.

It wasn't simply repenting according to Peter. One ALSO should be baptized in order to receive forgiveness. It was a package deal.

And what made this possible? It was the new covenant spoken by Jeremiah through our Lord and savior Jesus Christ to which we participate in through communion.

Within this new covenant, this is what John has to say.

1
John 1:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

What a blessing! No more running to an altar. Please notice that we must confess our sins.

So, where is repentance? It's only a few verses up.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

And so we see repentance and confession working together for the forgiveness of sins for those who are members of this new and glorious covenant.

OK,,,I think I see where our difference is, and, basically, we don't disagree.

Above you stated:
That was then, but what about Acts 2? Repent AND be baptized AND your sins will be forgiven.

I don't think you believe that one must be baptized before sins can be forgiven....They are forgiven when we enter into the Kingdom of God when we repent.

But what does repent mean?
And here is where we differ in meaning....

You understand repent to mean that we are sorry for our sins and confess them and God forgives them.

Repent really means to turn away from our life of sin, and turn TO GOD and want to serve HIM and not the enemy.

When we repent for the first time,,, we are automatically forgiven our past sins...all of them. IOW,, WHEN we become BORN AGAIN,,,we are forgiven our sins. I've seen persons cry at the altar call...surely they are sorry and are forgiven, even if they don't know the method yet.

After this, IOW, when we are already on the path with God...THEN we are sorry for the sins we commit and confess and are forgiven.

If you can accept what repentance means in my dictionary, then you'll understand.

These days repent is taken to mean "feel sorry for" and thus is our misunderstanding --- which really is not a misunderstanding.

I think we agree.

 

[stovebolts]

OK,,,I think I see where our difference is, and, basically, we don't disagree.

Above you stated:
That was then, but what about Acts 2? Repent AND be baptized AND your sins will be forgiven.

I don't think you believe that one must be baptized before sins can be forgiven....They are forgiven when we enter into the Kingdom of God when we repent.

But what does repent mean?
And here is where we differ in meaning....

You understand repent to mean that we are sorry for our sins and confess them and God forgives them.

Repent really means to turn away from our life of sin, and turn TO GOD and want to serve HIM and not the enemy.

When we repent for the first time,,, we are automatically forgiven our past sins...all of them. IOW,, WHEN we become BORN AGAIN,,,we are forgiven our sins. I've seen persons cry at the altar call...surely they are sorry and are forgiven, even if they don't know the method yet.

After this, IOW, when we are already on the path with God...THEN we are sorry for the sins we commit and confess and are forgiven.

If you can accept what repentance means in my dictionary, then you'll understand.

These days repent is taken to mean "feel sorry for" and thus is our misunderstanding --- which really is not a misunderstanding.

I think we agree.

With a broad stroke of the brush, we agree.
Where we will more than likely disagree, is i see baptism very similar to wedding vows. Let me explain.

At Sinai after the vows (commandments) we're spoken, all of Israel with one voice shouted they agreed. This is considered as a marriage ceremony which is why God refers to them as their husband and often accuses them of adultery.

when we look at the majority of the covenants, both parties participated. Two exceptions are the Noahide covenant which is universal and the covenant with Abraham where God takes care of the ceremony.

in the New Covenant, we see early on in Acts that both repentance and baptism both results in forgiveness of sins and is the mechanism which adds to the church.

to summarize, i see the act of baptism as an intimate encounter with Christ and like Sinai, both man and God participate. Water baptism isn't about getting dunked. It's about devoting oneself in love with another. It's about commitment with the promise that Jesus will never leave or forsake us. We are His bride, and he showed us his great love, even by dying for us that we might be be with Him.

the early church fathers wrote radically different about baptism than we do today because they didn't have the theological clutter we have today.

 

[GodsGrace]

With a broad stroke of the brush, we agree.
Where we will more than likely disagree, is i see baptism very similar to wedding vows. Let me explain.

At Sinai after the vows (commandments) we're spoken, all of Israel with one voice shouted they agreed. This is considered as a marriage ceremony which is why God refers to them as their husband and often accuses them of adultery.

when we look at the majority of the covenants, both parties participated. Two exceptions are the Noahide covenant which is universal and the covenant with Abraham where God takes care of the ceremony.

in the New Covenant, we see early on in Acts that both repentance and baptism both results in forgiveness of sins and is the mechanism which adds to the church.

to summarize, i see the act of baptism as an intimate encounter with Christ and like Sinai, both man and God participate. Water baptism isn't about getting dunked. It's about devoting oneself in love with another. It's about commitment with the promise that Jesus will never leave or forsake us. We are His bride, and he showed us his great love, even by dying for us that we might be be with Him.

the early church fathers wrote radically different about baptism than we do today because they didn't have the theological clutter we have today.

I agree 100%.
Some of the covenants were unconditional,,,such as the two you quoted.

I agree with you regarding baptism. I think that if it were seen in a more serious manner, it would be taken more seriously. It is NOT just a symbol of something....I used to believe this when I first became Protestant. It is much more.

The reason some do NOT keep their baptismal promise is, maybe, precisely because they are seeing it as a symbol?
I do believe some break their promise...
just as some break their marriage vows.
(for the above reason).

 

[stovebolts]

reason some do NOT keep their baptismal promise is, maybe, precisely because they are seeing it as a symbol?
I do believe some break their promise...
just as some break their marriage vows.
(for the above reason).

I agree. I believe Hosea speaks to this. It's so easy to forget about our commitment we made to God because we stop trusting him and believing His promises to us.


Deuteronomy 31:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.”

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The promise has always been the same and God continues to pursue us.

This really leads into the Holy Spirit. Prior to our new birth, the Holy Spirit both convicts us of sin that we may repent as well as wooing us.

I'll talk with you tomorrow. I've got a hot date with my wife. ;-)

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree. I believe Hosea speaks to this. It's so easy to forget about our commitment we made to God because we stop trusting him and believing His promises to us.


Deuteronomy 31:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.”

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

The promise has always been the same and God continues to pursue us.

This really leads into the Holy Spirit. Prior to our new birth, the Holy Spirit both convicts us of sin that we may repent as well as wooing us.

I'll talk with you tomorrow. I've got a hot date with my wife. ;-)

 

[JLB]

I recall specifically a passage in Torah that linked forgiveness from God with a sacrifice.

Yes it “cost” them an animal that they could otherwise eat or sell.

One’s habitual sin could get pretty expensive if they didn’t repent.

 

[JLB]

Right after that, it does state that "corresponding to that baptism now saves you".

I can't understand this.

Antitype not type.

The water then destroyed but “now” saves.

Going down under the water we die to this world which results in us being raised in new life unto Christ.

So then, the water which meant death “now” saves.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Antitype not type.

The water then destroyed but “now” saves.

Going down under the water we die to this world which results in us being raised in new life unto Christ.

So then, the water which meant death “now” saves.


JLB

Amen.
Just for clarity, and I understand you may view it differently which for me is ok because your view makes since as well, but for me, being born of water and spirit points to two baptisms that compliment each other as a whole.
Water Baptism, being not the washing of flesh, but being done with a good conscience while proclaiming the Lord and desiring His presence in ones life. Water Baptism for some like myself is the ceremony that affirms the relationship between oneself and Jesus. It is this proclamation and commitment whereby we unite with Christ and we are born again, and raised to a new life.

Paul puts it like this in Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Again, i want to be respectful of your view and in my heart, our differences are of little consequence as we both believe one must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God and we both agree that being born again fills us with the Holy Spirit which is a deposit and seal of our redemption.

 

[stovebolts]

Yes it “cost” them an animal that they could otherwise eat or sell.

One’s habitual sin could get pretty expensive if they didn’t repent.

Ha, this is so true. It's funny because just the other morning the thought of a sin tax entered my mind. Sacrificial goods we're viable commodities in their society and to have to pay the price for ones wrong really isn't that much different than being fined for speeding, although this really is a horrible example but i think it gives a general idea of my thoughts.

As you know, the priests kept a portion to live on, so it's no wonder they became corrupt and Jesus had to come in with a whip and set them straight.

 

[GodsGrace]

Antitype not type.

The water then destroyed but “now” saves.

Going down under the water we die to this world which results in us being raised in new life unto Christ.

So then, the water which meant death “now” saves.


JLB

Antitype....OK.
This is how I would understand it.
The water that destroyed, NOW saves.

 

[stovebolts]

Antitype....OK.
This is how I would understand it.
The water that destroyed, NOW saves.

Or..

John 12:24
New International Version
Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

To be born again also means that death must occur.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Romans 6:2a
We are those who have died to sin;

7. because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

11.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Or..

John 12:24
New International Version
Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

To be born again also means that death must occur.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Romans 6:2a
We are those who have died to sin;

7. because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

11.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I like

Galatians 2:20
20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

and

Colossians 3:5
5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

 

[JLB]

Or..

John 12:24
New International Version
Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

To be born again also means that death must occur.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Romans 6:2a
We are those who have died to sin;

7. because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

11.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

This puts us back in the camp that believes a person is born again when they are baptized.

We are baptized, after we believe and are born again.

Of course everything you are saying is true about dying, but this decision comes after we believe and are saved.

IOW, baptism in water is for believers.

I think we agree on this.



JLB