I believe that Jesus will come back and rule the earth for 1000 years, and then the end will come.
What does the Roman Catholic Church believe?
What does the Roman Catholic Church believe?
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My personal end times belief.
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
Where in the gospels does Jesus say he will come back and rule the earth exactly 1000 years? Jesus simply said in Matthew 25 that he would gather the nations before him and separate the sheep from the goats. The sheep would inherit the Kingdom. The goats would be cast into Hell.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Well, not exactly Roman Catholic here. I have studied this subject for a very long time, and right when I think I had it all put together, then someone brings something up I had not considered. It's one reason I like debate forums because all scriptures must fit and someone opposed to my belief are better equipped to bring things up that put a snag in my doctrine. I don't ignore scriptures or common sense as most faulty doctrines do.
Looking at Rev 20 it does not say exactly where Jesus is ruling or where those that are helping are ruling. Then switches to Earth. So one has to wonder if the literal kingdom is set up on Earth or the distance from Earth to Heaven in new bodies is nothing but a thing.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I have to assume that we are talking about Earth here, and those that survived the tribulation get to stay on the Earth. The first resurrection would be us. I can't pinpoint near the middle of tribulation or at the start but we are changed. Paul said they will say peace and safety then sudden destruction. Peter said people will scoff as things continue as before, but ties in the flood which was sudden and unexpected. Jesus also ties in the flood in Matt 24 which was unexpected.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(It also seems you only need priest and people ruling because there are still many that need taught.)
so the Kings and priest put us believers there with the Lord. I thought I had it figured out when the Lord is coming to grab us, but I need to pinpoint when that first trumpet is sounded, which I have not been able to do yet. That first Trumpet will kill many people on the earth. so much that 1/3 of all the tree's on earth are destroyed.
Just rambling. I believe there will be 1,000 years where the Lord runs things with us. Best to be faithful now, so your Job is not pushing a broom or something.
Mike.
Looking at Rev 20 it does not say exactly where Jesus is ruling or where those that are helping are ruling. Then switches to Earth. So one has to wonder if the literal kingdom is set up on Earth or the distance from Earth to Heaven in new bodies is nothing but a thing.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I have to assume that we are talking about Earth here, and those that survived the tribulation get to stay on the Earth. The first resurrection would be us. I can't pinpoint near the middle of tribulation or at the start but we are changed. Paul said they will say peace and safety then sudden destruction. Peter said people will scoff as things continue as before, but ties in the flood which was sudden and unexpected. Jesus also ties in the flood in Matt 24 which was unexpected.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(It also seems you only need priest and people ruling because there are still many that need taught.)
so the Kings and priest put us believers there with the Lord. I thought I had it figured out when the Lord is coming to grab us, but I need to pinpoint when that first trumpet is sounded, which I have not been able to do yet. That first Trumpet will kill many people on the earth. so much that 1/3 of all the tree's on earth are destroyed.
Just rambling. I believe there will be 1,000 years where the Lord runs things with us. Best to be faithful now, so your Job is not pushing a broom or something.
Mike.
jeff77
Member
Revelation 20:3-4
English Standard Version (ESV)
3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
This is what I found, but I am not Catholic.
English Standard Version (ESV)
3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
This is what I found, but I am not Catholic.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
The text says nothing about Jesus coming to Earth and reigning for a 1000 years. Look carefully, instead it says that "those who had not worshiped the best or its image came to life and reign WITH CHRIST 1000 years. Nowhere in scripture are readers told what the length of the Christ's reign is. All we are told is that He has an age lasting kingdom.
farouk
Member
B
Brother Mike
Guest
TRUTH over TRADITION
So you believe we think Jesus only gets about 1,000 years to be in charge of things and then gets the boot? Even now, do we not reign in life with him? I don't understand your objection.
So you believe we think Jesus only gets about 1,000 years to be in charge of things and then gets the boot? Even now, do we not reign in life with him? I don't understand your objection.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Who's the we that the Bible says would reign with the Christ? According to Revelation 20, those would reign with Jesus were the resurrected martyrs, not all believers.
Revelation 5:8 . . . the four beasts and four and twenty elders . .
Who are these?
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth.
Revelation 20:6 . . . they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Do all the redeemed reign?
Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation . .
Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple . .
Jesus mentions a thousand year reign in:
Revelation 20:3 . . till the thousand years should be fulfilled.
Revelation 20:4 . . they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6 . . . they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired . .
Revelation 20:3 . . till the thousand years should be fulfilled.
Revelation 20:4 . . they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6 . . . they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired . .
B
Brother Mike
Guest
TRUTH over TRADITION
What Eugene posted ................ AND
Truth over Tradition. I like the name, it denotes someone that goes line upon line and does not mess the simple understanding of the Word with spiritual fluff, removing common sense, the simplicity of God speaking to us. Tradition would be the old set of thinking, waiving many contradictions in the Word that do not support the traditional doctrine.
Rev 20:4.............. neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand yearss.
These folks did not follow the false prophet or take the mark to buy, sell and trade. Their souls were in Heaven and they were allowed to reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Those that make it through tribulation get to be with the rest of us. We have to be somewhere at this point.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So we have something labeled "First Resurrection" As you know, traditional folks like to count when we are never told to count. They count trumpets, they count days, they just love to count. There are specific place in the Word we are told to count. 1 day is as 1,000 years to the Lord, count the number of the beast. The rest of us count only what is mentioned as we stick strictly line by line and don't add or make up words. We don't count if we are told not to count and we count when told to count.
"First Resurrection" or Protos Resurrection. We have several resurrections mentioned already before this labeled "First Resurrection" occurs. Protos means the chief of, Before, a set of, first of, first things. Protos does not take account of time, but a first thing of something or chief thing of something. Protos being a Greek adjective is a part of speech. That means it's normally defined in the article.
Jesus was the first (Protos) made alive from the dead. The article defines Protos in this case, the first born (Begotten) of the dead. (Rev 1:5)
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
So you can't remove anyone from Jesus that are his. Blessed is the person that has part in the first order of resurrection.
Anyone in Christ receives back their body, or the body is resurrected. When Jesus comes, everyone becomes as he is with a new body as the Body is made new. This is the first resurrection. The only thing getting brought back from the dead is the body. We are spirits with a body so our spirits do not need brought back to life. We are with the Lord, waiting on the new body, because we need a body to function back on Earth. One just like Jesus has.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
People have already asked how are the dead raised? Is there soul sleep, do they just become aware again. What body do they get. Sadly people are still pondering this today, though Paul answered it.
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rom_8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So, REV 20 talks about the those that lost their life, but did not follow the bad guys. They get a new body and get to reign with Jesus as they have died for the cause. Those that were caught up before get a new body, and those that died in Christ get a new body, they are always with the Lord and reign as kings and priest with Him, and with the Saints that have died during tribulation. Nobody is removed from the Lord at any point.
The 2nd resurrection bring up the unrighteous dead. They also get a body as they are judged for what they did in that body.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
I hope this clears some things up.
Mike.
What Eugene posted ................ AND
Truth over Tradition. I like the name, it denotes someone that goes line upon line and does not mess the simple understanding of the Word with spiritual fluff, removing common sense, the simplicity of God speaking to us. Tradition would be the old set of thinking, waiving many contradictions in the Word that do not support the traditional doctrine.
Rev 20:4.............. neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand yearss.
These folks did not follow the false prophet or take the mark to buy, sell and trade. Their souls were in Heaven and they were allowed to reign with Christ for 1,000 years. Those that make it through tribulation get to be with the rest of us. We have to be somewhere at this point.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So we have something labeled "First Resurrection" As you know, traditional folks like to count when we are never told to count. They count trumpets, they count days, they just love to count. There are specific place in the Word we are told to count. 1 day is as 1,000 years to the Lord, count the number of the beast. The rest of us count only what is mentioned as we stick strictly line by line and don't add or make up words. We don't count if we are told not to count and we count when told to count.
"First Resurrection" or Protos Resurrection. We have several resurrections mentioned already before this labeled "First Resurrection" occurs. Protos means the chief of, Before, a set of, first of, first things. Protos does not take account of time, but a first thing of something or chief thing of something. Protos being a Greek adjective is a part of speech. That means it's normally defined in the article.
Jesus was the first (Protos) made alive from the dead. The article defines Protos in this case, the first born (Begotten) of the dead. (Rev 1:5)
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
So you can't remove anyone from Jesus that are his. Blessed is the person that has part in the first order of resurrection.
Anyone in Christ receives back their body, or the body is resurrected. When Jesus comes, everyone becomes as he is with a new body as the Body is made new. This is the first resurrection. The only thing getting brought back from the dead is the body. We are spirits with a body so our spirits do not need brought back to life. We are with the Lord, waiting on the new body, because we need a body to function back on Earth. One just like Jesus has.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
People have already asked how are the dead raised? Is there soul sleep, do they just become aware again. What body do they get. Sadly people are still pondering this today, though Paul answered it.
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rom_8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
So, REV 20 talks about the those that lost their life, but did not follow the bad guys. They get a new body and get to reign with Jesus as they have died for the cause. Those that were caught up before get a new body, and those that died in Christ get a new body, they are always with the Lord and reign as kings and priest with Him, and with the Saints that have died during tribulation. Nobody is removed from the Lord at any point.
The 2nd resurrection bring up the unrighteous dead. They also get a body as they are judged for what they did in that body.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
I hope this clears some things up.
Mike.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Revelation 20 is pretty straighforward in identifying who it is that would get to reign with the Christ for the 1000 years.
The text specifies that this martyred group gets to reign, it says nothing about the rest of the redeemed or future believers. This group seems to be the same group referenced in Revelation 6:9-11 which reads: Next, he opened the fifth seal, and underneath the Altar I saw the lives of those who had been slaughtered because of the Word of God and because of the things to which they had testified. They were calling out in a loud voice and asking, 'Until when, O Sovereign Lord who is holy and true, will you You keep holding back from passing judgment and avenging our blood upon those who live on the earth?' Then they were each given a white robe and they were told to rest for just a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow slaves and brothers was to be filled (who were going to be killed as they were).
Revelation 7s context identifies an innumerable multitude from among all nations that is giving praise to the Lamb for being saved. They are contrasted to the 144,000 of Israel that were mentioned as being sealed. If you recall, Rev 7:2 and following says: Then I saw another messenger who had ascended from the sunrise carrying the seal of the living God; and he shouted loudly to the four messengers who were allowed to harm the lands and seas, 3 saying: 'Don't harm the lands, the seas, or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.'4 And I heard how many of them had been sealed: a hundred and forty-four thousand out of every tribe of the sons of IsraEl.
This group of 144,000 is again discussed later in the book in chapter 14 which reads: ...I saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion; and with him, there were a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's Name written on their foreheads. 2 And I also heard a noise coming from the sky that sounded like a lot of water and loud thunder.
Well, the sound that I heard was that of people who were all playing harps and singing. 3 They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four animals and the elders, and no one was able to learn that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand who were purchased out of the earth. 4 These didn't pollute themselves with women. In fact, they are virgins who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. They were bought from among mankind as first fruitage to God and to the Lamb.
This sealed group of 144,000 is identified as being 'bought from among mankind as a first fruitage,' the great multitude (GM) is never spoken of in those terms despite the fact the the GM is ultimately numbered among the saved. The 144,000 as well as the martyrs spoken of in chapter 6 and chapter 20 appear to be the beneficiaries of greater promises than the GM. They get to be with the Christ in a more intimate manner and the martyrs even get to reign with the Christ. The same cannot be said for the GM that is counted among the saved. In addition it would seem that the 1st resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20 may only be applicable to those of the smaller number.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
TRUTH over TRADITION
It would be just those that lost their life during tribulation. The 144,000 just show up in God's throne room and I am sure they did not walk there and were not killed. Taking the Word for what it says is something I am a big fan of. Simple and easy without spiritual fluff. I gave an explanation above, but if you want to read it this way, I don't find fault.
Mike.
It would be just those that lost their life during tribulation. The 144,000 just show up in God's throne room and I am sure they did not walk there and were not killed. Taking the Word for what it says is something I am a big fan of. Simple and easy without spiritual fluff. I gave an explanation above, but if you want to read it this way, I don't find fault.
Mike.
jasoncran
Member
uhm, they died. just becaust its not mentioned doesn't mean that they lived and just went to heaven. the 144,000 had to be alive during the jewish revolt from ad 66-73. it would make sense that they were either massacred, died from a disease, or old age. i don't see the wrath of god upon them but that doesn't mean they weren't hated. remember in ad 70 only the jews in the holy city who didn't flee died.
smaller
Member
Been awhile since I heard a believer approach their theology that way. That's the way it's supposed to be done.
Believers should be looking for holes in their understandings and take the harshest criticism they can find in order to test it. Over time that methodology pays big dividends.
s
smaller
Member
The most obvious answer about 'end times' is the ending of sin, evil and finally death.
This fact is wrapped up in allegory/parable/metaphor and simile in the text, cover to cover, with the grand slam in Rev. It's a beautiful piece of work. I have spent decades in the text studying these matters from every conceivable angle.
Ultimately it's personal to each of us, in our own temples, and best read in that direction.
s
This fact is wrapped up in allegory/parable/metaphor and simile in the text, cover to cover, with the grand slam in Rev. It's a beautiful piece of work. I have spent decades in the text studying these matters from every conceivable angle.
Ultimately it's personal to each of us, in our own temples, and best read in that direction.
s
B
Brother Mike
Guest
smaller
Being teachable pays big time. I have been in the Word of God since 1997, and it feels that I don't know much. One thing I always need to clear up is scripture contradictions. Am what I believing about a scripture, contradict someone explanation of another. We both can't be right most the time, or we both think the same way but don't understand the way of communication and preconceiving what someone else believes.
Jason:
We talking about those guys found in Revelations? I am sure 144,000 Jews have died at some point of time, but was more thinking of a specific group.
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
These guys get sealed.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads
These guys get protected from flying monsters.
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
These guys redeemed from the earth, hanging out in God's throne room singing.
If there is another version, I would like to hear it.
Mike.
Edited:
Smaller:
The most obvious answer about 'end times' is the ending of sin, evil and finally death.
I guess the conclusion all gets concluded the same.
Mike again.
Being teachable pays big time. I have been in the Word of God since 1997, and it feels that I don't know much. One thing I always need to clear up is scripture contradictions. Am what I believing about a scripture, contradict someone explanation of another. We both can't be right most the time, or we both think the same way but don't understand the way of communication and preconceiving what someone else believes.
Jason:
We talking about those guys found in Revelations? I am sure 144,000 Jews have died at some point of time, but was more thinking of a specific group.
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
These guys get sealed.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads
These guys get protected from flying monsters.
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
These guys redeemed from the earth, hanging out in God's throne room singing.
If there is another version, I would like to hear it.
Mike.
Edited:
Smaller:
The most obvious answer about 'end times' is the ending of sin, evil and finally death.
I guess the conclusion all gets concluded the same.
Mike again.
Last edited by a moderator:
jasoncran
Member
well no jew today knows his tribe. so how can it be that we jews know our tribes and well many gentiles(those listed are of isreal and Judea) have crossed lines. so that is a pedigree that they have to be. they are also males and virgins. so that would make them very devout jews whom believed in Christ.
note: Im not saying the jews have corrupted the lines but the other ten have.
note: Im not saying the jews have corrupted the lines but the other ten have.