National Israel is cursed forever !

[veteran]

Those who live by the flesh will die. All temporal nations are already judged. There are many who favour the temporal nation presently called Israel as being God's chosen. They choose the natural over the spiritual. They also believe the church is any building that says "church" on it! Hypnosis is a powerful force that fills the empty spiritual void.

This matter has nothing to do with the idea of Salvation by the flesh. It's about the idea of election. Paul wrote clearly in Rom.11 that if the unbelieving of Israel remain in unbelief, they will be cut off. Likewise for unbelieving Gentiles.

The covenants and promises from God did not stop being to the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, which Paul covered in Romans 11. That group of Israelites, WHICH GOD HIMSELF RESERVED has always continued in His promises. It's because He promised to Israel they would always be a nation unto Him. That's what the Jeremiah prophecy is about.

If you mean judgment unto condemnation, that's very wrong, for the Judgment has not happened yet. Only the devil and his angels have been judged to perish so far.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So in romans 11:1-2 Paul in correcting a faulty understanding, which Jews thought that Gods promises were meant for them as a Nation and premised upon ethnicity, but that was not Gods will at all, for all Gods promises were not to the Nation but to a small remnant within the Nation called Israel, the election of grace. It was this very small remnant that God foreknew. This Israel [ election of grace] is no longer identified with National Israel, but now under the New Covenant as the Church, and now more clearly seen as the body of Christ. All the types and shadows and temple that characterized the Covenant God had with National Israel, have passed away. Even with that, Gods promises to Israel [ the election of grace] have not stopped, for God will still convert ethnic Jews as well as gentiles [ who too are of the election of grace] and fulfill His promises to Israel [ the remnant of both Jew and gentile elect]

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 11:

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Paul further explains, that even elijah, who feared the worst for the nation of Israel, and thought he was the only jew that God Loved, and that God was out to destroy all jews, the nation has gone bad.

But God corrects his thinking vs 4

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

God had a remnant that elijah did not know about, and Gods promises to Israel the remnant has not fluctuated.

God had reserved for Himself a remnant to be gracious to. Isa 1:

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Paul refers to this very verse in rom 9:

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed [ or remnant], we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

God told elijah that He had reserved 7000 of the people. God makes sure that He sets aside a people that satan cannot touch, even though the nation was over run with the devils children Jn 8:

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus directed these words to ethnic jews who supposedly honored Gods law and claimed to be children of Abraham, Just because they belonged to Corporate National Israel.

Even with this horrible condition of national Israel, God had a remnant of the election of grace israel in the nation.

Those who look for national israel and ethnic jews to all be saved, are deceived, but only a small remnant from that nation and a small remnant from the nations of the world, make up the Israel to which Gods promises were too.

 

[veteran]

So Paul is correcting a misunderstanding, that the promises of God to Israel [ election of grace] have not been abrogated, but that those promises were not to national / corporate Israel, that which was blinded, but to Israel [ the election of grace] of which He was privileged to be part of, even as an ethnic Jew.

If you mean most of God's promises were removed from the 'blinded' part of Israel, but continued with that remnant of Israel He reserved, then yes. That remnant of Israel according to the election of grace is about a portion of the 'seed' of Israel that continued in God's promises and covenants. I think the confusion might be in wrongly thinking all Israelites took part in Christ's death, which is simply not true, as the MAJORITY OF THE SEED OF ISRAEL WERE NOT EVEN PRESENT IN JUDEA AT THE TIME OF OUR LORD'S CRUCIFIXION.

rom 11:

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So what Paul was Illustrating, that Gods promises to Israel [ election of grace] was still being kept by the conversion of ethnic Jews like himself. So its a mistake to say God has forsaken the promises to Israel [ the election ] because he is done with the nation.

For each ethnic Jew, who as Paul, belongs to those who are foreknown in Christ, will experience conversion from their unbelief as He did.

1 tim 1:

13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul is saying, that each Jew like me, who was ignorant [ rom 10:3] and unbelieving, if they be of the foreknown in Christ [rom 8:29] they too will experience the grace of the Lord being exceeding abundant towards them bringing faith to replace unbelief.

Well, kind of, but there's so much more to it, because it involves prophecy God gave about Israel and actual history of the 12 tribes, even after Christ's death and resurrection. The majority of Israelites were not even present in the holy land to take part in our Lord's crucifixion. So why do many blame those too? A majority of pastors in the Churches very well know that fact also!

There's a mystery involved with the idea of Israel still being a nation today, as a nation in God's eyes, and not in the way this world thinks of nations. The "house of Judah" is still represented as being in Jerusalem all the way up to the time of Christ's return. And God promised a remnant of Judah would always be there. That's about a promise God made for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, as written in 1 Kings 11. God did not say if that meant Jewish converts to Christ or not. He just promised there would always be one tribe remaining in Jerusalem.

And speaking of Apostle Paul, Christ converted him in Person. What of all the Israelites in that reserved remnant that believed, like Christ's discples, and even the prophet Stephen who was stoned by the unbelieving Jews? What about the multitudes of peoples that believed John the Baptist's preaching about Christ, and all the multitudes that followed after our Lord Jesus to hear Him preach, and be healed?

The Jewish historian Josephus said the ten tribes of Israel were still scattered abroad in his day, and were a great many people, too many to be numbered. So those weren't even in the holy land to be accused of Christ's crucifixion. Hosea is an important study, because God said He scattered the ten tribes for doing Baal worship first, and He called them Loammi, meaning 'not My people'. He said He would hedge up their paths so they wouldn't find their way back, and give them the full Baalism they craved, and they would say their first beginnings were better than how they wound up, and they would then start considering their plight.

But in final, listen to what He says about those He scattered...

Hosea 1:9-11
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(KJV)

Some day, where God said they were not My people, He will say, 'Ye are the sons of the living God'. They are to become 'ami' again, meaning My people. And the believing Gentiles are included with them. Paul quoted this in Romans 9, which includes a remnant of Israel and believing Gentiles.

 

[veteran]

So in romans 11:1-2 Paul in correcting a faulty understanding, which Jews thought that Gods promises were meant for them as a Nation and premised upon ethnicity, but that was not Gods will at all, for all Gods promises were not to the Nation but to a small remnant within the Nation called Israel, the election of grace. It was this very small remnant that God foreknew. This Israel [ election of grace] is no longer identified with National Israel, but now under the New Covenant as the Church, and now more clearly seen as the body of Christ. All the types and shadows and temple that characterized the Covenant God had with National Israel, have passed away. Even with that, Gods promises to Israel [ the election of grace] have not stopped, for God will still convert ethnic Jews as well as gentiles [ who too are of the election of grace] and fulfill His promises to Israel [ the remnant of both Jew and gentile elect]

That remnant is not very small. It is much, much larger than one could imagine. It's because the majority of that remnant is not even about Jews, even believing Jews. Haven't you studied the Old Testament to know that the largest group of Israelites were always about the ten tribes? False prophets keep calling the ten tribes of Israel by the name 'Jew', and that's a falsehood, for the name 'Jew' comes from the tribe of Judah, and was applied to the "house of Judah". Why not do a bit of Bible study starting in 1 Kings 11 forward to discover what I'm talking about. Did you even know that Israel was TWO NATIONS at one time, meaning two separate kingdoms?

God scattered the ten tribes out of the holy land first, but He left the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem. The ten tribes were known as the "house of Israel" after God split Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days (1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17). Both houses even warred against each other!

Josephus said the name 'Jew' came of the tribe of Judah, and the tribes of Benjamin and Levi which were with Judah to make up the southern kingdom at Jerusalem, all took the name 'Jew'. That's the Jews of Bible history. The ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel didn't use that name, and the ten tribes made up the majority of the peoples of Israel! So when you keep saying Jews, you're only speaking of a smaller group of Israel, not anywhere near the majority of Israel.

God scattered the ten tribes first, and they never returned as a people. Only a very small remnant of Judah returned from their Babylon captivity. Here's a chronology...

1.Ten tribes ("house of Israel") removed out of the holy land by the king of Assyria, and taken to the land of the Medes (NOT Babylon). They were to be further scattered through the countries per Book of Ezekiel. House of Judah, or Jews, remained in Judea, UNTOUCHED.

2. 120 years later, the "house of Judah" (Jews) went captive to Babylon, by the Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon. That was to a different area than where the ten tribes were.

3. Per Ezra, only a small remnant of Jews returned to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity after 70 years. The ten tribes were still scattered abroad. Book of Ezra gives the family names, and what tribes they were from that returned. NONE of the ten tribes are mentioned as returning. Only a remnant of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi returned, as written.

4. The rest of Judah stayed in Babylon, of their own choice. Many of those were later scattered through the nations. They kept their heritage of being from Israel.

5. The ten tribes never returned, and became 'lost' to the world (but not to God per Amos 9:9). Per the Book of Hosea, the ten tribes were to lose their heritage of being from Israel, along with the old Israelite traditions of feast days, etc. The Jews kept their history while scattered; the ten tribes did not keep knowledge of their origins and made up the majority of the peoples of Israel.

6. When Christ was preached in Asia Minor and Europe, it included many, many Israelites of the ten tribes who were lost. Josephus said in his day the ten tribes were still scattered abroad (100 A.D.), and were too many to be numbered.

God's promises that Judah would keep control of the law, and the royal sceptre rule would last all the way up to Christ's coming (Gen.49:10). That is manifested among the "nation" Christ said He would given His kingdom to after removing it from Jerusalem. The last king of the house of David to sit upon a throne in Jerusalem was Zedekiah in Jeremiah's days. BECAUSE the rule of law and the royal sceptre involves the working of a 'nation', and is still manifested on earth today, means that's a promise from God involving Israel, just not Israel in the holy land today.

That is about the spiritual Israel concept, but also about Israel in the national concept. It's about real workings on this earth, and not just a spiritual idea that only exists in the heavens. It is the fulfillment that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations", and that out of Jacob's seed would come "a nation and a company of nations" (Gen.35:11; Gen.48:19). That means real nations on this earth. Do you know where those are? Christ's enemies certainly know.

 

[AVBunyan]

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..

So - then you've just thrown out 3/4 of the old testament by saying Israel is finished. :crazy

Mat I suggest you start over. :gah :crazy

 

[veteran]

Rom 11:

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Paul further explains, that even elijah, who feared the worst for the nation of Israel, and thought he was the only jew that God Loved, and that God was out to destroy all jews, the nation has gone bad.

But God corrects his thinking vs 4

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

God had a remnant that elijah did not know about, and Gods promises to Israel the remnant has not fluctuated.

God had reserved for Himself a remnant to be gracious to. Isa 1:

9Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Paul refers to this very verse in rom 9:

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed [ or remnant], we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

God told elijah that He had reserved 7000 of the people. God makes sure that He sets aside a people that satan cannot touch, even though the nation was over run with the devils children Jn 8:

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus directed these words to ethnic jews who supposedly honored Gods law and claimed to be children of Abraham, Just because they belonged to Corporate National Israel.

Even with this horrible condition of national Israel, God had a remnant of the election of grace israel in the nation.

Those who look for national israel and ethnic jews to all be saved, are deceived, but only a small remnant from that nation and a small remnant from the nations of the world, make up the Israel to which Gods promises were too.

You've still only got part of it, because you're concentrating on the part of Israel called Jews, which was a name used only by the "house of Judah", the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that dwelt at Jerusalem/Judea that made up the southern kingdom. It's obvious you STILL don't know who the "house of Israel" is per God's Word after Solomon's days.

Ezek 37:15-22
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, 'For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions': then take another stick, and write upon it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions':
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Our Heavenly Father showed us about this with two sticks. He told Ezekiel to take two separate sticks. Write on one "For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions". That was for the "house of Judah" and two other tribes with Judah only (Benjamin, Levi). Those took the name Jew.

Then God tells Ezekiel to take another stick, and write upon it, "For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." That means the ten tribes of Israel only, known as the "house of Israel" after God split Israel into two nations after Solomon's days. They made up the northern kingdom of Israel, and dwelt in the nothern lands of Israel, separate from Judah. God's Birthright continued in Joseph, and then Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, as written in 1 Chronicles 5. Ephraim became the head tribe over the ten tribes. These were scattered first, apart from Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

God tells Ezekiel to join the two sticks together, and when the people ask what it means, he was to tell them God is going to join both houses back together as one some day.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:(KJV)

That has NOT happenned yet, but it will. AND it involves us Gentiles that believe on Christ Jesus, because WE shall be gathered with them back to the holy land. But until that time, Israel exists as "two nations", even today, regardless of where they are, and how the world understands God's concept of national Israel. Ezekiel was in the Babylon captivity when he was given this prophecy, so both houses had already been scattered out of the holy land.


Ezek 37:23-25
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.
24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
(KJV)

That has not happenned yet today, and won't until the time of our gathering to Christ Jesus in the holy land.

Jer 33:23-26
23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, "The two families which the LORD hath chosen, He hath even cast them off? thus they have despised My people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the LORD; If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
(KJV)

Who do you think God is talking about with those people who say, "The two families which the LORD hath chosen, He hath even cast them off?" That's His enemies which say stuff like that. It's His enemies that see how God scattered all the children of Israel out of the holy land, and think He has cut them off forever to be no more a nation. That's what the devil wants, and it's the devil's servants that keep pushing the false idea that God is done with the nation of Israel. But God says if His covenant is not with day and night, and if He has not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, then you can believe that lie. But it's very clear that God still is in control the ordinances of heaven and earth, and day and night, now isn't it? Thus Israel shall never stop being a nation and people before Him.

 

[veteran]

In Romans 9, Paul quoted from Hosea. The Book of Hosea was written specifically to the "house of Israel", with Ephraim as their head. Here's Paul's quote from Hosea first...

Rom 9:24-28
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
(KJV)

Don't get confused with Paul saying, "not of the Jews only", which he is speaking of his brethren of the "house of Judah" that dwelt at Jerusalem/Judea. In Paul's day, that remnant in Judea called Jews were the only ones left in the holy land. Paul was descended from them, the tribe of Benjamin, and that's why he called himself both an Israelite and a Jew.

Verses 25 & 26 he quotes from Hosea, and Paul applies that to all peoples that were NOT called God's people, specifically Gentiles.

But note in Hosea 'who' that prophecy was originally given to, because the original prophecy reads a bit different than how Paul used it in Romans 9...

Hosea 1:6-11
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, "Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen."

God told His prophet Hosea to go take a wife of whoredoms. And God told him what names to call his children. Hosea's children were named to symbolically represent Israel's rebellion against God. Loruhammah (not pitied) was named to represent the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), and how that house rebelled by falling into Baal worship (recall king Ahab and his wife Jezebel? They were king and queen over the house of Israel, or ten tribes, and she was a Baal worshipper).

But here God also says He would have mercy upon the "house of Judah", and will save them. Judah remained untouched in Judea when God brought the king of Assyria upon the ten tribes in the north, and removed all ten tribes out of the land captive to the land of the Medes north of Babylon.

8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.

Then Hosea's wife has another child, and God says to name him 'Loammi', which means, 'not My people'. Loammi also represents the ten tribes of Israel, the "house of Israel", become not God's people. Basically, God divorced them and removed them from His sight.

10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, 'Ye are the sons of the living God.'
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(KJV)

Then God says, "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered." That means they would grow into a great multitude where they would be scattered, and be too numerous to even measure or count. Is that about the Jews? NO. It's about the ten lost tribes of Israel, the "house of Israel". Further in Hosea God shows how He would cause the ten tribes to forget Him altogether, and become lost to themselves, even losing their roots as part of Israel, including the feast days, new moons, covenants of promise, etc. Now is that about Jews? No, for Judah kept their heritage and customs of Israel, which is how the world KNOWS who they are.

Hosea 1:10 is what Paul quoted in Romans 9 about Gentiles. But here in Hosea it's about the ten tribes of the house of Israel one day being said to them, "Ye are the sons of the living God", after they are gathered back to the land God promised their fathers. So why has Paul applied this prophecy to the Gentiles in Romans 9, when it was originally in Hosea involving the ten tribes of the house of Israel?

Simply because among the Gentiles is WHERE the majority of the ten lost tribes were scattered to, and still are scattered to. They are NOT Jews, because they DO NOT KNOW THEY ARE DESCENDENTS OF THE TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL. Many times in the NT, when Paul is using the word Gentiles, he is ALSO including the lost ten tribes of Israel that dwell among them, for that's who this Hosea prophecy was originally about and to. Understanding the OT history about Israel and God's promises to Israel is the only way to know about this.

In essence then, we Gentiles are NOT to think of Israel being no more, because that would mean WE have no Salvation, because without them we won't be saved. They won't be saved without us, and we won't be saved without them. So in a way, to say Israel is cursed forever, and cast off forever by God is to actually throw away our OWN promise of Salvation through Christ, for as written, the gathering of the lost tribes of Israel to Him in final along with us Gentiles, is going to be a great, great, many people as one. By comparison, the number of believing Jews in that is a much smaller group.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So God corrected Elijah's misunderstanding, as God will do for all His chosen ones per phil 3:

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

God focused Elijah's attention not on National Israel as a whole, but that He had reserved for Himself out of the Nation a remnant, this remnant would be a remnant out of grace, because by nature they would not be no better than their brethren who gave in to Idolatry, note:

Its only by the grace of God I am what I am, a True Believer in Christ.

vs 5:

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul now transitioning the thought of Elijah's time, to apply to His present time, as the nation is clearly in rejection of Christ, and under God's blinding Judgment, yet Paul says that even then, the promises to Israel [ the elect remnant ] in that wicked nation, God will fulfill the promises to, because, all the time, the promises to Israel were not to national or corporate Israel, but to the people Israel [ the election of grace]

God is saying that Israel in part [ the elect remnant] are reserved by Him, not the whole Idolatrous Nation. That was never Gods promise, so, He is not obligated towards the whole Nation, but only to those within the nation that He foreknew in Christ, those whom He predestinated into conformity to the image of Jesus Christ [ like Paul], these are the Israel of promise per rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

gal 4:

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise

This is why Paul had said in chapter 9 6 that they are not all Israel [ the elect remnant] which are of Israel [ The Corporate Nation] and what Jesus meant that many [ in Corporate Israel ] be called, but few [ elect remnant] be chosen.

So when Paul says, at this present time [ during his ministry], that God was still being faithful to His promises to Israel [ the elect] by converting within her, the elect remnant of grace, as He himself was proof of rom 11:

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

 

[veteran]

So God corrected Elijah's misunderstanding, as God will do for all His chosen ones per phil 3:

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

God focused Elijah's attention not on National Israel as a whole, but that He had reserved for Himself out of the Nation a remnant, this remnant would be a remnant out of grace, because by nature they would not be no better than their brethren who gave in to Idolatry, note:

Not quite, because how can the unbelieving of Israel still be His Israel, and yet today in the holy land there's still a nation known as Israel? The mystery is that God promised He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem for His servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake (1 Kings 11). Also, Israel becoming a state in the holy land again in 1948 fulfilled His promise to Judah in Jeremiah 24, a promise that He would bring Judah back to the land again, and not remove them anymore.

It was the ten tribes scattered among the Gentiles that became the new "nation" Christ mentioned in Matt.21 that would bring forth fruits of the vineyard. In Isaiah 5, God defined His symbolic vineyard as the "house of Israel", meaning the ten tribes of Israel He scattered among the Gentiles. Both a believing remnant of the ten tribes, and a believing remnant of Judah, along with believing Gentiles, now make up that new "nation" under Christ, known to God as Israel. It's the spiritual Israel concept Paul taught in Rom.9.

Its only by the grace of God I am what I am, a True Believer in Christ.

vs 5:

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Paul now transitioning the thought of Elijah's time, to apply to His present time, as the nation is clearly in rejection of Christ, and under God's blinding Judgment, yet Paul says that even then, the promises to Israel [ the elect remnant ] in that wicked nation, God will fulfill the promises to, because, all the time, the promises to Israel were not to national or corporate Israel, but to the people Israel [ the election of grace]

God is saying that Israel in part [ the elect remnant] are reserved by Him, not the whole Idolatrous Nation. That was never Gods promise, so, He is not obligated towards the whole Nation, but only to those within the nation that He foreknew in Christ, those whom He predestinated into conformity to the image of Jesus Christ [ like Paul], these are the Israel of promise per rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

But does that mean only seed not of Israelite birth are the new nation under Christ? No, of course not. For it's the believing of the ten tribes, and of believing Jews, and believing Gentiles, that make up that new nation now. God's promises and covenants have continued with them, EVEN THOUGH THAT NEW NATION IS NOT KNOWN AS ISRAEL TO THE WORLD. Yet since Christ died on the cross, that new nation now IS HIS ISRAEL. That means the elect remnant of the seed of Israel has CONTINUED in God's promises and covenants to Israel, wherever they went, and those were never cut off. God promised that though He would scatter Israel through the nations, there would always be a remnant that knew the Truth.

Amos 9:8-9
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
(KJV)

Jer 30:10-11
10 Therefore fear thou not, O My servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
(KJV)

Isa 6:12-13
12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.
(KJV)

Those above verses are about that elect remnant of the seed of Israel that Paul was talking about in Romans 11. How were those cut off from being Israel? They weren't, for those are the ones God reserved unto Himself, the remnant of flesh Israel according to the election of grace. God protected and led them wherever they were scattered to. It's among that group which has always been attached to the Root (Christ) that we believing Gentiles have been graffed into. It is because of their existence that God's promises continue under the New Covenant Jesus Christ.

Apostle Paul is a prime example of that group, because even though he was born of the tribe of Benjamin, he was born at Tarsus, a main city of the country of Cilicia in ASIA MINOR. Asia Minor was where the seven Churches of Revelation were located. The huge difference between Paul (Saul) was that he knew of his heritage from flesh Israel. The majority of the ten tribes in those areas did not know, and still don't know today I dare say.

What makes Paul really unique is that even though he was deceived in following the Pharisee traditions of the Jews, and even had a letter of authority from them to hunt down Christians, Christ directly intervened in Paul's life and converted him. That's evidence of God's reserved remnant of the seed of Israel according to the election of grace. And what areas did Paul go preach The Gospel mainly to? To those areas of Asia Minor and Europe where the majority of the ten tribes of Israel were scattered to, and I mean non-Jew Israelites of the ten tribes especially, for those made up the majority of the peoples of Israel before God scattered them. Paul even said in Romans that he planned to travel to Spain to visit those in Christ there. Why Spain?

It's because the majority of the ten tribes were scattered to the West. And that's where can be found God's promise that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations", and from Jacob's loins "a company of nations." That's the "nation" Christ was talking about moving His vineyard (ten tribes) to in Matthew 21. THAT's where The Gospel first took off to produce fruits of the vineyard on a grand scale. Thus it is not by chance that the western nations of history have been super blessed by God, and have been historical caretakers of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It was prophecy.

 

[savedbygrace57]

As we will see in this study, the branches that were cut off, were not the Israel that God foreknew, the point is, God never foreknew the whole entire Nation as His People, but a remnant of the election of grace within the Nation. The Nation as a whole were not the people that Jesus came to save as per Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His people here are the same His people here rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

So Matt 1:21 could read without any harm of the Truth Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people[ he foreknew] from their sins.

The branches cut off were not part of the foreknown people of God, even though they were off corporate or national Israel. It was National Covenant or Corporate Israel that were the branches cut off and blinded, and not the Israel of God within that Corporate Nation. You see , Paul recognizes Two Israels rom 9 6, One was the Israel of God [ by Grace and Promise] and Corporate Israel [ by Covenant and by race].

Within Covenant Israel there was nothing but ethnic Jews by race, but within Israel of God, the election of Grace, there were ethnic Jews and Gentiles, but up until Paul's time, only the ethnic Jews of the election of Grace had been converted, but now, the gospel would call out the rest of the election of grace and add to the election of grace with the ethnic Jews, and so, in this manner all Israel will be saved, and Gods promises to Israel the people [ not the corporate nation] will be fulfilled, this is Paul's argument.

 

[stranger]

As we will see in this study, the branches that were cut off, were not the Israel that God foreknew, the point is, God never foreknew the whole entire Nation as His People, but a remnant of the election of grace within the Nation. The Nation as a whole were not the people that Jesus came to save as per Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His people here are the same His people here rom 11:

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

So Matt 1:21 could read without any harm of the Truth Matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people[ he foreknew] from their sins.

The branches cut off were not part of the foreknown people of God, even though they were off corporate or national Israel. It was National Covenant or Corporate Israel that were the branches cut off and blinded, and not the Israel of God within that Corporate Nation. You see , Paul recognizes Two Israels rom 9 6, One was the Israel of God [ by Grace and Promise] and Corporate Israel [ by Covenant and by race].

Hi savedbygrace57,

The natural branch cut off will be grafted back into the cultivated olive tree. So I would say that they could have been the foreknown people of God - Israel that had rejected the Messiah for a season. Now if you believe in God's sovereignty - then it would not matter when they were saved nor how long, from our point of view, that season was.

blessings brother

 

[savedbygrace57]

stranger:

The natural branch cut off will be grafted back into the cultivated olive tree. So I would say that they could have been the foreknown people of God

Yes as individuals, not the nation. The foreknown among the ethnic jews will eventually be converted to Christ as paul was, that was the point of rom 11:1-2..

Just as the gentiles who were grafted in, it was as individual branches, not a whole nation of gentiles. Branches represents individuals.

 

[savedbygrace57]

National or corporate Israel was not the Israel of God, but a shadow or type. The Israel that God promised to save, was not based upon race but Grace, and so paul continues in vs 6

6And if by grace [election of grace vs 5], then is it no more of works [ or race]: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Folks, Salvation is not by race, that is a lie of the devil. The devils lie today has men and women feeling secure in their salvation just because they are Jews and perhaps live in Israel over in the middle east. This is promoting a spirit of elitism unto a certain race of people, just because of race, in spite of Gods word saying, that only a remnant within National or corporate Israel were of the election of grace.

The Israel of God will be saved by Grace, Gods unmerited Favor, I am sorry, but ones race and place of residence does not merit Gods saving grace. It is nothing sinful men can do to merit grace.

Salvation is by Grace through Faith, it is the gift of God, whether Jew or Gentile. eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now notice the grammatical structure of romans 11:5-6 and eph 2:8-9 !

They are basically the same denouncing works [ human effort which includes race see jn 1:13] and promoting grace !

Also it should be noted, that as grace in rom 11:6 means the election of grace referred to in rom 11:5

So likewise, the grace in eph 2:5 and 8 means the same as in romans 11:5 that is the election of grace.

So eph 2 8 can read eph 2:

8For by grace [election of grace] are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Or it can read for by election are ye saved through Faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.

Faith in this case is the faith of election as seen in Titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;


The salvation of any people is not by race, or national heritage or any other merit of man, for that would make God a respecter of persons.

Nothing gives man Favour with God outside of being elected or chosen in the Beloved Son before the foundation of the world.

if one is promoting that any nation is accepted and beloved of God, based on race, they are promoting a false gospel.

salvation is not premised upon where one lives, but only being in Christ..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 11:

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

That which Israel the nation sought after, was favour with God as per rom 10:

3For they [National Israel] being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

National Israel was Ignorant of God's Righteousness, just as the heathen gentile nations were. They, just as other idolater's, went about establishing their own righteousness, being Ignorant to God's righteousness.

Again, this was not the Israel God made promises to, the promises were made to the election Israel. Other than the election Israel [ Israel of Promise] the rest of the Nation were blinded [ By God]

The word blinded is the greek word: poroo and means:

to cover with a thick skin, to harden by covering with a callus
metaph.

to make the heart dull

to grow hard, callous, become dull, lose the power of understanding

This was foretold long ago by Isaiah, lets look at chapter 6:

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9And he said, Go, and tell this people [ National Israel], Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

This was God's foreordained purpose for National Israel, except for the election Israel.

In other words, National Israel, or Corporate Israel was a cast away to God, for God only cared about elect Israel within Her.

Paul reiterated the same purpose of Isiah here acts 28:

25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This is a curse if I never saw one, God never had any intention of saving the whole Nation of Israel corporately, but Israel of election, and the rest of the Jews were to be blinded.

And us gentiles should not get lifted in pride, because the same gore for us, God is only focusing on a chosen remnant amongst us as well, and the rest are blinded.

 

[Joe67]

The worship of the Lord, as supported by violence, both Jew and Christian, is coming to a close. The commercialization of Jesus is the evidence that reveals that the time of the hearing of the word of the Lord is finished. The time of the arm of the Lord is upon us. Political power and commercialization of worship has surrounded the camp of the Lord. Satan who has been bound by the gospel has now been let out of his pit to gather the nations against those who live without walls of political protection and the commercialization of Jesus; just as he was given to come against Job and against Jacob in the time of Jacob's trouble, after Jacob had been cut off from his income through Laban, the worshiper of the Lord through idolatry.

The selling of the grace of God brings the curse to its fullness. Institutional worship processes do not know how to financially survive without the selling of materials, artifacts and religious services. They have become the modern day equivalent of the medieval monastic beggars and the commercial corruption of the time of our Lord in the flesh. There is forgiveness for this iniquity but they will suffer loss as the 10 horns of the beast receive power for one hour and hate the whore and eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Isa 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. KJV

Rev 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. KJV

"Sand of the sea" is a key as to this work. If the nations recognized it for what it is, then they would not be deceived and go back into their house to get their material comforts.

Joe

 

[savedbygrace57]

The whole Nation of Israel was seeking salvation by their works rom 10:1-4, they were in error as most false religions of the world are today, seeking salvation by their own efforts. They even had a faulty understanding of the work of Christ the Messiah, they did not understand that the salvation He promised was salvation from Spiritual enemies. There was a small remnant that did i.e

lk 1:

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Even as back then, so it is right today, National Israel hopes in salvation by the keeping of the Law. Yet there has always been a elect remnant [ who is also called Israel] who seeks through salvation through the Faith of Christ, but the rest [ National Israel ] is blinded.

The point is, all Gods promises are to Israel the elect remnant of Grace, and not to Israel the Nation. The Nation of Israel who did not obtain the promises, the elect remnant in that Nation, the election of Grace, Did.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The key to understanding the Truth is to remember rom 9:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

There is a Israel [ National] and a Israel [ election of Grace].

The ethnic Israel was not aware of this, even paul was not until God revealed it to Him, it had been a Mystery.

So paul is correcting the fallacious thinking that National Israel had the Promises given to her, but that was not the case, it was election of grace Israel who were given the promises, and we shall see later in the study, that the election of grace Israel and the election of grace gentiles, = The Israel to which the promises were made.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So it is, whenever we see good things prophesied or promised to Israel in the OT, it is not to National Israel, but to Remnant Israel, the eelction of Grace Israel.

National Israel had nothing but evil promised to her, as we will take a look at in vs 8 of rom 11.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 11:

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them [National Israel] the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Paul realizing that this issue was very important, so he stuck to the Old Testament scriptures to verify His points that He was making.

It should not be any surprise that National Israel is experiencing what she is experiencing [ being blinded] because it was foretold in OT scripture.

Isa 29:

10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Isa 6:

9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Its mentioned in Jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


Jesus himself says that it was His purpose for coming, not only to open blind eyes [ the elect remnant] but also make blind [ the rejected Nation ] Jn 9:

39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

The making blind of National Israel was in Line with what God had planned and purposed before the world began.

Again, what is key to understanding this matter, is that there were Two Israels, National Israel and Election Israel the remnant. It was never Gods intention to save all of the Nation of Israel, but a remnant rom 9:

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The remnant is also Israel, it is the remnant that Salvation is promised to, not the whole Nation.

God had purposed to harden and reprobate the rest of the Nation, because He had another way determined on how all Israel shall be saved, and it was not by saving the Nation of Israel [ corporate], for God had another election of grace out of the gentiles, and their conversion and the conversion of the election of grace in National Israel, this is how all Israel will be saved. But we will get to that later in the study, but now its important to realize, that National Israel's hardening and blinding was of the LORD.

Matt 21:42

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?