Need help with this scripture

[jasoncran]

nowhere in the bible does it say the apostles are GODS. christlike yes, but the Lord only has that honor of all knowing,all powerful, and everywhere.
if we are to be like that then God is weak and to small to be the sole creator of all that is.

 

[MMarc]

I think the jw's actually think Jesus was an incarnation of the archangel Michael. I think its the mormons that say he was "a god." But I could be wrong.

this is correct, the jw says the micheal the archangel is the messiah that comes to save men from their sins.

Wow, that's just crazy. And its so odd too because I worked with two jw's at my last job and one of them knew the bible at least as well as I do. How on earth can they draw such conclusions, knowing the bible that well? I don't think they have an additional book like the book of mormon or anything like that. They're conjuring this stuff up from the bible and I just DO NOT get it!!!

Michael means ''Who is like unto God'' I see Michael as a Christ like figure in Heaven.

Just like when see many Christ like figures on earth in the OT. I know that Michael is not Jesus of Nazareth. But the Spirit of the Lord that came upon Jesus in 4:18.

In Rev 12 we see the man/child ascend to the throne of God, and when He get's there than Michael takes over to battle Lucifer. They work together like they did in Daniel 10.

Michael upholds the manchild like he did in the days of Babylon.

As for the question, I believe that Jesus just gives back the key to the Father and the Father returns and will walk among us like He did in the garden...

And Jesus also returns to live forever with us, as death itself no longer exists. Like in Joel 2 ''they see the garden before them''

This is the whole point of the last 6 000 years is to get back to the garden and live forever.

 

[MMarc]

Hmmm. The third earth. Do you mean the perfect world Adam messed up as the first earth, and the earth now as the second earth, or are you into the Gap Theory?

I do not like theories, but people tend to put me in them because they feel that they understand where someone is coming from, by claiming that another is a part of a certain theory. I abhor the fact that people catagorize other people, by comparing them to something or someone else. Such as calvanism. Or gap theories. Or Lutherism.

God is going to destroy this earth, and there will be a new earth, also called the third earth. God is going to set up his throne there - Rev. chapter 21. But before this all happens, Jesus Christ needs to conguer the rulership of this earth.

When the Lord makes a New earth and a New Heaven, I don't believe He will destroy them and recreate them physically.

When I received the Kingdom in 2000 I was changed from the inside out, but I was the same man physically.

Likewise the Lord makes all things new, He made us new creations at Passover when He redeems us. But when the Lord fulfills the endtime feasts He then makes ''All things new''

Rev 21

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.†And He said to me,[a] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.â€
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[c] and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

So just like Jesus said it is finished, the Lord when He returns will say, IT IS DONE.
So this is why I believe, the Lord makes all things new from the inside out, meaning at a spiritual level.

In rev 12, notice the earth helps the woman and open it's mouth to swallow the demonic flood.
It's like the earth comes ''alive''. All knees shall bow under the earth, as in Heaven and on earth.

Just like you have principalities which are territorial. The Lord takes away the curse from the earth.

Hope it makes sense.

 

[ronniechoate34]

I have been visited by the jw people many times. I just had a visit with a couple of them on Saturday. This is the second time they have been around. I think that I will speak with them once more and after that I won't allow them back into my home, provided they continue in their heretical beliefs.


They seem like really nice people these jws, but I don't know for sure that they are. Their are some people with really good intentions who are just misguided souls, and their are others who practice the art of deception. We have to be careful in our dealings with those who represent false religions. Truly we should be careful to examine all that we hear. Like the guy who holds the eggs up to the light to examine them for bad eggs, we should hold all we hear up to the light of God's Word to examine it for truth.

 

[faithtransforms]

When the Lord makes a New earth and a New Heaven, I don't believe He will destroy them and recreate them physically.

When I received the Kingdom in 2000 I was changed from the inside out, but I was the same man physically.

Likewise the Lord makes all things new, He made us new creations at Passover when He redeems us. But when the Lord fulfills the endtime feasts He then makes ''All things new''

Rev 21

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.†And He said to me,[a] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.â€
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[c] and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

So just like Jesus said it is finished, the Lord when He returns will say, IT IS DONE.
So this is why I believe, the Lord makes all things new from the inside out, meaning at a spiritual level.

In rev 12, notice the earth helps the woman and open it's mouth to swallow the demonic flood.
It's like the earth comes ''alive''. All knees shall bow under the earth, as in Heaven and on earth.

Just like you have principalities which are territorial. The Lord takes away the curse from the earth.

Hope it makes sense.

2 Peter 3:10 KJV
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat , the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up .

2 Peter 3:12 KJV
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ?

I've never quite understood when the elements would completely burn up because, where will we be at during this?! But it appears he IS going to destroy the first earth. Or second earth or whatever it is, lol.

 

[Mysteryman]

Well, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers either. I just wanted to explain that if a person is going to ask a question, that the question should not be attached to another persons theory .

And yes, this earth was created by God way before God put Adam on this earth. Many ,many years had passed before Adam was put upon this earth. Some people call it a gap theory, I kow. I just can stand when people call something by a theory. A theory is a wild guess by someone. And there is no room for theories when it comes to the Word of God. Either something happened in such a way or it didn't.

The first earth, was before Genesis 1:2. The Word of God never talks about the second earth, but it does talk about the new earth being the third earth. That is because the second earth is the first earth renewed. This is why God states in Genesis 1:28 for man to "replenish" the earth and subdue it.

This earth is going to be destroyed by God. And God is going to make all things new.. hence a "new earth", where righteousness will dwell forever.

I'm not sure what you mean by "I just wanted to explain that if a person is going to ask a question, that the question should not be attached to another persons theory." Honestly it just seems a little weird to me. If a scientist asked another scientist "What do you think, string theory or supersymmetry?" I doubt the other scientist would be offended by it. But anyway, I didn't mean to do anything wrong by it.

Since you do believe essentially what some call the gap theory, would you mind giving me some scriptures? I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious about it.

Hi

Try and not take this in the wrong way. But you can not and should not compare worldly theories with what some call a theory pertaining to what the Word of God clearly shows us. If one see's what one calls the gap theory, then it is not longer a theory. If one does not see, then to them it is still a theory and is not established within their understanding of scripture.

God is a God of all life. Thus God does not create a heaven and an earth with no life in it. That would make God a liar, if someone suggests that God created an earth with no life. Genesis 1:2 tells us that the earth became without form and void. God didn't create the earth without form and void of life, just the opposite is true.

 

[veteran]

The bible clearly teaches that Jesus' kingdom is an eternal kingdom, and that He will rule and reign forever. But these verses seem to contradict that:

1 COR 15:22-28

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This seems to suggest that the Kingdom will be delivered back to the Father to rule and reign.

Help!

I must have missed this thread. It's a good question.

There's a couple of pointers in Rev. which helps with that. But first, recall when our Lord Jesus was on earth and said He and The Father were still One, and to Philip that if he'd seen Him he'd seen The Father. That goes back to Hebrews 1:3 that Jesus is the "express image of His person." It begs the question was The Father also in Heaven then, even after our Lord Jesus appeared on earth after His resurrection? Who would disagree with Yes on that?

In Rev.20:9, we're shown Satan leading a host army in final upon against the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city", upon the breadth of the earth. Per the layout of Ezekiel's temple, the east sanctuary gate is shut because The Lord entered in that way, and no man is allowed to enter in by it (Ezek.44:1-2). I think this reveals Christ coming and going during the Milennium time. Isaiah 5:4 shows a cloud and smoke by day, and by night a flaming fire as a defence all around the glory. Per Rev.20:9 also, fire rains down from God out of Heaven to burn up Satan's final army that comes upon the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city".

So Who is in Heaven to rain that fire down, The Son, or The Father, or Both? Sincerely, I don't know. All I know is that still shows God's Full Glory as staying untainted by those events going on upon the earth during the Milennium. Rev.21:22 tells us when God establishes the New Jerusalem on earth in final, there will be no temple there, for The Lord God Almighty and The Lamb will be the Temple then. Rev.20:9 is still Milennium timing with Ezekiel's temple; Rev.21:22 hints to after the Judgment and lake of fire event with all evil gone, and no more Ezekiel's temple.

With all evil gone, and no need for a temple, that's when I feel The Father and The Son will walk freely with us in His Garden, much like He did with Adam and Eve. I think the Milennium time is going to be a time of correction and discipline upon the saved, preparing us so He can live right among us on the earth. I think that's the main duty of His elect priests and kings, to help the nations that are left to prepare for that also.

 

[faithtransforms]

Genesis 1:2 tells us that the earth became without form and void. God didn't create the earth without form and void of life, just the opposite is true.

Yes, I've heard that the word interpreted as without form and void actually means something like destroyed (can't think of a better word right now but there is one). And yes, creating it without form and void does seem a little odd.

 

[glorydaz]

Genesis 1:2 tells us that the earth became without form and void. God didn't create the earth without form and void of life, just the opposite is true.

Yes, I've heard that the word interpreted as without form and void actually means something like destroyed (can't think of a better word right now but there is one). And yes, creating it without form and void does seem a little odd.

The verse does not say "became"...it was without form, and void...

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The earth existed as a disordered clump and God very carefully arranged it to meet the needs of mankind.

the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

 

[Mysteryman]

The Hebrew word for "was" is -- "ha ya" < and it is # 1933 - to become or became

 

[glorydaz]

The Hebrew word for "was" is -- "ha ya" < and it is # 1933 - to become or became

Ah, after a little research I found your "gap theory". The word is very consistant with Creation. You can read it to fit a theory, if you like, but I'll just read it as given.

It's creation...plain and simple. It does not signify there was anything more than a bunch of "stuff" that God formed into the earth we see today. He formed man out of the dust of the ground...and he "became" a living soul. ;)

Here's your word...also "happen', and "to occur".

However, in verse 2, the Hebrew word describing the earth being formless, empty and covered in
darkness is haya, which means to become, to happen, to occur.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz : "It does not signify there was anything more than a bunch of "stuff" "




A bunch of stuff -- :rolling

 

[SonByAdoption]

The bible clearly teaches that Jesus' kingdom is an eternal kingdom, and that He will rule and reign forever. But these verses seem to contradict that:

1 COR 15:22-28

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This seems to suggest that the Kingdom will be delivered back to the Father to rule and reign.

Help!

Christ is coming back with all the angels to get His saints and kill all the sinners on the earth at the same time. Then he's going to take the saints to heaven for a thousand years. Passover has happened that was Christ's sacrifice then a couple days later was the First Fruits then fifty days after than was Pentecost. We're waiting for the Trumpets which is Christ return then the Feast of the Tabernacles where the Jews dwelt in temporary dwellings. Heaven will be our temporary dwelling for a thousand years. Then we're coming back in the New Jerusalem which is going to float out of the sky and Jesus is going to wake up all the sinners have judgement and burn all the sinners who ever lived on the earth as well as satan and his angels and burn the whole earth and then recreate it[Day of Atonement] so than we can live on it.

Then I guess that's when Christ is going to turn the reign back to the Father but the Father's not going to reign the earth. He has a whole universe to reign. Christ said He was given all power in heaven and earth. So He's given back the reign of heaven and keeping the reign of earth. Besides that Revelation 12 says something like ye heavens praise God that satan can't bother you anymore. I think that's when satan was cast out so he couldn't bother heaven anymore or any of the unfallen worlds. Because in the bible there are three heavens. The sky then the stars and then the 3rd heaven in the center of the universe where God the Father dwells. So I believe when the bible talks about heavens in Revelation 12 it is refering to unfallen worlds. So Jesus is turning back the reign of heaven and the reign of unfallen worlds back to the Father but Jesus is going to continue to reign earth because his throne is David's throne but His Father has the throne of heaven. Two thrones so both can reign and no cotridiction.

 

[SonByAdoption]

that refers to the end of the millenial reign.

Yeah, that's kind of what I thought. But I think the bible also teaches that Jesus would reign for all eternity. Hebrews 1:8: "But unto the Son he (God) saith Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

I'm sorry but everytime I see a trinitarian bring up Hebrews 1:8 where the Father recognizes the divinity of His Male Offspring I have to point out the next verse.

You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, O God, your God [The God of You]has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else."Hebrews 1:9 New Living Translation

God the Father is not a trinitarian. He believes that all though Him and His male offspring our both equal in divinity He is till the God of His Son. And many conversations between the Father and the Son are recorded in the Bible but not once do they talk to the Holy Spirit and never is the Holy Spirit prayed to or worshiped. Maybe God and His Only Born Son have a diferent understanding of what a holy spirit is than we do.

 

[SonByAdoption]

how, the cessation of the son? a return to the preincarnate days.

even then the bible uses elohim, a plural, word for the Lord meaning the strong ones have sworn.

The Bible says that Jesus was God's only born Son when He was pure Divinity before He ever came down to earth as God's human only born Son. "God sent His only Born Son into the world"1st John 4:9

Elohim doesn't mean trinity my friend. It's funny how Gentile Christians try and tell Hebrew people what their words mean. God said that He would make Moses an Elohim to Israel and my friend Moses was no trinity he was a single solitary individual just like God the Father is. Elijah was mocking the false god Bal and saying that he was sleeping and calling him an Elohim and my friend baal was a single solitary false god and not a trinity.

I was raised a trinitarian and I know that when we see God said let us make man in our image we assume that it is a trinity speaking but did you ever try testing your assumptions by the word of God. When you look at all the other creation accounts in the rest of the Bible it's always only two Divine beings talking about creating the world not three. "...who has established the ends of the earth.What is His name and what was HIS SON'S name.Surely you know!"

God was not talking to a trinity. One God the Father was talking to His One Son

 

[SonByAdoption]

I think the jw's actually think Jesus was an incarnation of the archangel Michael. I think its the mormons that say he was "a god." But I could be wrong.

this is correct, the jw says the micheal the archangel is the messiah that comes to save men from their sins.

Wow, that's just crazy. And its so odd too because I worked with two jw's at my last job and one of them knew the bible at least as well as I do. How on earth can they draw such conclusions, knowing the bible that well? I don't think they have an additional book like the book of mormon or anything like that. They're conjuring this stuff up from the bible and I just DO NOT get it!!!

Proving that Jesus is Michael the Archangel from the Bible is the easiest thing to do.
Theselonias somewhere says that the dead will be woken up with the trump of God and "the voice of the archangel" But Christ said that "the voice of the Son of God" was going to wake the dead so then the voice of the archangel must be the voice of the Son of God. Although I must admit if the archangel can wake the dead than that is proof that He is not a created being. I really don't understand JW's. they say that a created being helped God create the world. That just doesn't make sense. God would never give a created being the power to create the universe. That just is dumb thinking. Also archangel means ruler of the angels and this phrase is used in the O.T. Christ told Joshua that He was Captain of Yahweh's armies and we all know that's Yahweh's armies is angels. So the Captain of Yahweh's armies and ruler of the angels must be the same person. but proving once again this is no created being because Joshua worships Him in the OT joshua 5.

 

[archangel_300]

Proving that Jesus is Michael the Archangel from the Bible is the easiest thing to do.
Theselonias somewhere says that the dead will be woken up with the trump of God and "the voice of the archangel" But Christ said that "the voice of the Son of God" was going to wake the dead so then the voice of the archangel must be the voice of the Son of God. Although I must admit if the archangel can wake the dead than that is proof that He is not a created being. I really don't understand JW's. they say that a created being helped God create the world. That just doesn't make sense. God would never give a created being the power to create the universe. That just is dumb thinking. Also archangel means ruler of the angels and this phrase is used in the O.T. Christ told Joshua that He was Captain of Yahweh's armies and we all know that's Yahweh's armies is angels. So the Captain of Yahweh's armies and ruler of the angels must be the same person. but proving once again this is no created being because Joshua worships Him in the OT joshua 5.

I think I should have chose a different login name.

 

[faithtransforms]

Proving that Jesus is Michael the Archangel from the Bible is the easiest thing to do.
Theselonias somewhere says that the dead will be woken up with the trump of God and "the voice of the archangel" But Christ said that "the voice of the Son of God" was going to wake the dead so then the voice of the archangel must be the voice of the Son of God. Although I must admit if the archangel can wake the dead than that is proof that He is not a created being. I really don't understand JW's. they say that a created being helped God create the world. That just doesn't make sense. God would never give a created being the power to create the universe. That just is dumb thinking. Also archangel means ruler of the angels and this phrase is used in the O.T. Christ told Joshua that He was Captain of Yahweh's armies and we all know that's Yahweh's armies is angels. So the Captain of Yahweh's armies and ruler of the angels must be the same person. but proving once again this is no created being because Joshua worships Him in the OT joshua 5.

I think I should have chose a different login name.

LOL!

 

[jasoncran]

how, the cessation of the son? a return to the preincarnate days.

even then the bible uses elohim, a plural, word for the Lord meaning the strong ones have sworn.

The Bible says that Jesus was God's only born Son when He was pure Divinity before He ever came down to earth as God's human only born Son. "God sent His only Born Son into the world"1st John 4:9

Elohim doesn't mean trinity my friend. It's funny how Gentile Christians try and tell Hebrew people what their words mean. God said that He would make Moses an Elohim to Israel and my friend Moses was no trinity he was a single solitary individual just like God the Father is. Elijah was mocking the false god Bal and saying that he was sleeping and calling him an Elohim and my friend baal was a single solitary false god and not a trinity.

I was raised a trinitarian and I know that when we see God said let us make man in our image we assume that it is a trinity speaking but did you ever try testing your assumptions by the word of God. When you look at all the other creation accounts in the rest of the Bible it's always only two Divine beings talking about creating the world not three. "...who has established the ends of the earth.What is His name and what was HIS SON'S name.Surely you know!"

God was not talking to a trinity. One God the Father was talking to His One Son

i am a hebrew christian i have acees to some of my HEBREW RELATIVES, THAT CAN READ AND TALK in that toungue.

 

[RaymondKroft]

it's a symbolic repersentation of continuous creation. It's when death becomes life. As so recognized when a Nebula or magnatar goes super nova. Then of course a black hole never dies.