[_ Old Earth _] Neither intelligent nor designed

[reznwerks]

"Instead of the efficiency and elegance one expects from Intelligent Design, we see numerous vestigial characteristics and instances of poor design. Such anomalies are both expected and accommodated by evolution. Only evolution offers a self-contained explanation of why more than 99 percent of the species that have lived on Earth are extinct. What sport does a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent deity receive from visiting on humans and other mammals all sorts of afflictions including parasitic bacteria, viral diseases, cancer, and genetic diseases? "

"These and many other examples suggest that any Intelligent Design must have been undertaken by a committee of fractious gods who could not agree. Taken at face value, invocation of Intelligent Design supports an argument for polytheism."


"Does the real world show evidence of wise, omniscient design? To be plausible, an argument must take all the facts into account. The scientific study of biology shows us that existing species have serious flaws, belying claims of a beneficent creator. Intelligent design spokesmen ignore vestigial organs, anatomical inefficiency, destructive mutation, the sheer wastefulness of natural processes, and the findings of molecular genetics. The constant interplay of random mutations honed by selection pressures during evolution produces many instances of poor design. What follows are a few of the less technical of the hundreds of examples of flaws noted by paleontologists and other students of evolutionary processes."

http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-11/intell ... esign.html

 

[unred typo]

Reznwerks wrote:

vestigial organs, anatomical inefficiency, destructive mutation, the sheer wastefulness of natural processes, and the findings of molecular genetics. The constant interplay of random mutations honed by selection pressures during evolution produces many instances of poor design.

Take your gas grill you put together without following the instructions. Is the fact that the cover opens on the bottom and the handle is on the inside and there is a bag of strange leftover pieces proof of poor design? Did you ever read the Bible yourself, or did you get the Cliff notes? It explains why things have gone from good to bad to worse.

 

[Barbarian]

Problem is, we see jerry-rigged evolutionary features from the start.

No sign of ancient perfection. And no Scriptural basis for such an assumption, either.

Just a story someone told you.

 

[Khaine]

Hey, the whole thing was done in six days. It was a rushed job. Most likely done by union sub-contractors. You get what you pay for.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Hey, the whole thing was done in six days. It was a rushed job. Most likely done by union sub-contractors. You get what you pay for.

What we need is Quetzalquatl working in a sweatshop.

 

[Heidi]

"Instead of the efficiency and elegance one expects from Intelligent Design, we see numerous vestigial characteristics and instances of poor design. Such anomalies are both expected and accommodated by evolution. Only evolution offers a self-contained explanation of why more than 99 percent of the species that have lived on Earth are extinct. What sport does a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent deity receive from visiting on humans and other mammals all sorts of afflictions including parasitic bacteria, viral diseases, cancer, and genetic diseases? "

"These and many other examples suggest that any Intelligent Design must have been undertaken by a committee of fractious gods who could not agree. Taken at face value, invocation of Intelligent Design supports an argument for polytheism."


"Does the real world show evidence of wise, omniscient design? To be plausible, an argument must take all the facts into account. The scientific study of biology shows us that existing species have serious flaws, belying claims of a beneficent creator. Intelligent design spokesmen ignore vestigial organs, anatomical inefficiency, destructive mutation, the sheer wastefulness of natural processes, and the findings of molecular genetics. The constant interplay of random mutations honed by selection pressures during evolution produces many instances of poor design. What follows are a few of the less technical of the hundreds of examples of flaws noted by paleontologists and other students of evolutionary processes."

http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-11/intell ... esign.html

Well I guess that you feel you were poorly designed. This reflects a deep ingratitude for your existence. Your unhappiness is readily apparent throughout all of your posts. I feel sorry for you. :

 

[Barbarian]

Well I guess that you feel you were poorly designed.

Wasn't designed at all. Evolved. God is a lot wiser and more powerful than you think He is.

 

[Heidi]

So if there is no cell design, then how can scientists understand the reproductive processes?How can they predict the weather or from mathematical equations if 1+1 doesn't =2? Why do doctors use the very design you say doesn't exist in order to invent medicines to fit into that design? How can there be any scientific theories like the theory of relativity that wouldn't work if things weren't designed? How did they figure out how an atomic bomb works if there is no design? How can we use electricity if we didn't know how electrons, protons and neutrons react together? :o

If there is no design, then why do evolutionists try to explain their theories in rewference to a logical design? :o Your assertion that there's no design throwns out all scientific discoveries because they depend on how things were designed to even form their theories! So sorry, Barbarian, your assertion that there is no deisgn renders science completely erroneous. You have therefore contradicted all of your arguments. ;-)

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

All of those things follow a mathematically predictable process, predictable because we know that certain things in the universe always work a certain way. Saying factually that anything we haven't made is designed is logically circular.

 

[unred typo]

Barbarian wrote:

Problem is, we see jerry-rigged evolutionary features from the start.

No sign of ancient perfection. And no Scriptural basis for such an assumption, either.

Just a story someone told you.

“And God saw that it was very good.†I don’t think the word ‘perfect’ was mentioned. Exactly what were you expecting to find of the ‘ancient perfection’ anyways? ‘The world that then was’ was destroyed by the flood and all the tumultuous activity that would involve. The entire creation was ‘subjected to vanity’ and mankind fell from the being he once was as the curse of death overcame the life of the body. You have never seen the human body as it was designed nor the creation before the fall. How do you know what is a ‘jerry-rigged evolutionary feature from the start?’

 

[reznwerks]

problem

Reznwerks wrote:

vestigial organs, anatomical inefficiency, destructive mutation, the sheer wastefulness of natural processes, and the findings of molecular genetics. The constant interplay of random mutations honed by selection pressures during evolution produces many instances of poor design.

Take your gas grill you put together without following the instructions. Is the fact that the cover opens on the bottom and the handle is on the inside and there is a bag of strange leftover pieces proof of poor design? Did you ever read the Bible yourself, or did you get the Cliff notes? It explains why things have gone from good to bad to worse.

You fail to realize that just because you don't have a better answer to the question it does not default to a God. The grill is put together the way man wants it because it works. If there is a cause to the way we are it does not mean God or a God that has a plan exists.

 

[reznwerks]

design

So if there is no cell design, then how can scientists understand the reproductive processes?
There is cell design. We don't know why there is cell design. To imply God did it is stretching it.

How can they predict the weather or from mathematical equations if 1+1 doesn't =2? Why do doctors use the very design you say doesn't exist in order to invent medicines to fit into that design?
There is design and predictability. We don't know why there is.Again it's wishful thinking to imply God and even more wishful thinking to imply a God of the bible who gets involved in mans affairs.

How can there be any scientific theories like the theory of relativity that wouldn't work if things weren't designed? How did they figure out how an atomic bomb works if there is no design? How can we use electricity if we didn't know how electrons, protons and neutrons react together? :o

You are impressed with what you see, so are scientists. You should become one instead of critizizing them. They are looking for the answers. So far God is not it. When they find him I am sure they will have a long talk on how things work.
-)

 

[reznwerks]

how

Barbarian wrote:

Problem is, we see jerry-rigged evolutionary features from the start.

No sign of ancient perfection. And no Scriptural basis for such an assumption, either.

Just a story someone told you.

“And God saw that it was very good.†I don’t think the word ‘perfect’ was mentioned.
How can a perfect God make unperfect things. If an oxymoron ever presented itself this is it. How can one claim things are very good when man can find obvious and pointable deficieincies?

Exactly what were you expecting to find of the ‘ancient perfection’ anyways? ‘The world that then was’ was destroyed by the flood and all the tumultuous activity that would involve.
So when God created the flood he made made more problems than he solved. Not only did he not rid the world of evil but the perfection that you imply existed never came back.

The entire creation was ‘subjected to vanity’ and mankind fell from the being he once was as the curse of death overcame the life of the body. You have never seen the human body as it was designed nor the creation before the fall. How do you know what is a ‘jerry-rigged evolutionary feature from the start?’
Well if you want to pick on man for sinning and being condemned that is one thing but what about the rest of the animal kingdom and their shortcomings? What did they do to get their physical problems?

 

[unred typo]

Reznwerks wrote:

How can a perfect God make unperfect things. If an oxymoron ever presented itself this is it. How can one claim things are very good when man can find obvious and pointable deficieincies?

What “pointable deficieincies†are you talking about?
Your oxymoron makes no sense. If you want to get all abstract, anything that God made would be less than God or it would be God. By definition then, it would be less than perfect. It would be very good but not perfect, not God. In order for any being with another ‘will’ to exist, God would have to restrict his will and allow someone else’s will. If he did not allow free will in man, there would no real choices and man would only be a puppet. If God wanted to have a creation of willing followers, he would have to allow them to willingly choose to follow him. This isn’t rocket science, just common logic.


Reznwerks wrote:

So when God created the flood he made made more problems than he solved. Not only did he not rid the world of evil but the perfection that you imply existed never came back.

The perfect harmony was already marred. At this point, God is using the evil man embraced to teach him to choose good over evil. We’ve talked about this before but you don’t seem to get the concept. You can’t make an informed decision without seeing the effects of both choosing to obey God and choosing to disobey. Tell me if you prefer to live in a world of selfish greed and lust, hate, cruelty, and unmerciful violence or a world of love and peace? Would you willingly allow a God of love and peace to rule over you? The world he is creating to replace this one will be filled with only good with none of the evil, pain or suffering that we endure in this one.

Reznwerks wrote:

Well if you want to pick on man for sinning and being condemned that is one thing but what about the rest of the animal kingdom and their shortcomings? What did they do to get their physical problems?

Their’s is a short lived misery and they are going to enjoy the new creation for eternity, just as humans will. Given the opportunity to experience both pain and pleasure, they will appreciate the latter to the fullest. Haven’t you heard? All dogs go to heaven.

 

[Free]

reznwerks,

How can a perfect God make unperfect things. If an oxymoron ever presented itself this is it. How can one claim things are very good when man can find obvious and pointable deficieincies?

How about taking the whole of the story and not just part of it?

 

[Heidi]

Re: design

So if there is no cell design, then how can scientists understand the reproductive processes?
There is cell design. We don't know why there is cell design. To imply God did it is stretching it.

How can they predict the weather or from mathematical equations if 1+1 doesn't =2? Why do doctors use the very design you say doesn't exist in order to invent medicines to fit into that design?
There is design and predictability. We don't know why there is.Again it's wishful thinking to imply God and even more wishful thinking to imply a God of the bible who gets involved in mans affairs.

How can there be any scientific theories like the theory of relativity that wouldn't work if things weren't designed? How did they figure out how an atomic bomb works if there is no design? How can we use electricity if we didn't know how electrons, protons and neutrons react together? :o

You are impressed with what you see, so are scientists. You should become one instead of critizizing them. They are looking for the answers. So far God is not it. When they find him I am sure they will have a long talk on how things work.
-)

Sorry, but there cannot be a design without a designer. The very word "design"means that there was a purpose in a creation that has a beginning that leads to an end. Anything designed has a desgner. Anything.

And all the explanations of our creation except that God created it have glaring flaws. But there is not one inconsistency in God's explanation that we were created by Him. Not one. Humans do rule over the animals like he said, & animals breed their own kind, like he said. But in order to prove God wrong, evolutionists have such lengthy & convoluted theories that change every generation when the inconsistencies can't be reconciled.

The inconsistency that things evolve, even though humans have not evolved into anything other than humans is attempted to be explained by saying that millions of years from now they will. That is as weak an argument as me saying that millions of years from now we will all turn green because I say so.

Another huge inconsistency is finally acknowledging that animals cannot cross breed so evolutionists say well then, the cells of apes spontaneouly produced more characteristics than they had in the first place & that is how the human being came to be. So then again, why are apes still around today? So then evolutionists try to explain this by saying that only some apes produced genes that eventually became human (although again, they still haven't explained how genes can produce characteristics not already present in the cells), but also haven't explained why these particular apes just happened to produce some genes that mutated into human beings. The odds that the genes of some apes mutating into humans are so astronomical as to be embarrassingly preposterous. Yet evolutionists prefer these incalculable odds to the simple explanation that only a miraculous Creator could have conceived of something so beautiful and unfathomly complex as the human being!

The audacity of evolutionists in thinking they know where such a complex creation as the human being came from, when they don't even understand a fraction about the complexity of the design of the human being in the first place it beyond all rational thinking!

When criminals can't even be convicted of crimes where the evidence that they committed it are right there for everyone to see, yet evolutionitsts think they can prove only theories with no evidence for everyone to see? Only in their dreams. 8-)

 

[Drew]

Re: design

Sorry, but there cannot be a design without a designer. The very word "design"means that there was a purpose in a creation that has a beginning that leads to an end. Anything designed has a desgner. Anything.

This case has quite simply yet to be made.

Admittedly reznwerks did use the word "design". However, it is clear that his/her intent was to use a word that captures the fact that a cell, for example, has rich structure and/or function. He/she clearly did not intend to assert that some intelligent agent "did the designing" - this should be obvious. We can't play word games here.

Over and over again, certain people argue that anything with "order" or "rich structure" or "sophisticated functionality", must, of pure necessity, be the product of intelligent design. Over and over again, we ask for a defence of this assertion, especially in light of physical evidence that shows that order and structure can evolve through processes found in the "natural order". Over and over again, all we get is basically the undefended claim that "everything that has structural / functional sophistication must have been designed specifically by an intelligent agent".

This is simply not answering the mail.....