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wondering

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That's the whole purpose for Christian forums is to come in and fellowship with others discussing the doctrines of Christ as we hopefully can learn from one another Spiritually discerning what others try to teach us. This has to be done in the atmosphere of unity among all of us, even when we disagree.

Two topics that come to mind is OSAS vs OSNAS and Baptism. These two topics are great topics, but heavily debated and does bring out the worst in people causing division with the arguments of "I'm right, your wrong". Baptism is not quite as hard to moderate, but yet takes time. We have all seen what happens in OSAS and it does take to much time to follow through all of it as it is a fast moving topic and takes away from time given to other topics.

It would be wonderful if everyone adhered to the ToS and presented themselves as civil mature adults, but we know that will never happen. There is no pleasure in reprimanding anyone for their behavior and we do try to do that with love towards them, but when they ignore the warnings given them then they need to be banned, either for a period of time, or banned all together.

CF does not want to be like all the other Christian forums, but sanctified and blessed by God as He sets it apart from all the other ones as we walk in unity of love following the greatest commandment of God. Haters will hate, but not in here as it will not be tolerated as each one of us brings something different to the discussions as we are to be the light of Christ to the nations. We can disagree with each other, but do this in love and respect for the other person for how they allow themselves to be taught.

I thank God for the many times I have been corrected lovingly by others in here that the Holy Spirit works through that have more Spiritual knowledge then I do. This is the way it should always be as every forum in here is for our learning from each other as we share the scriptures, but yet it is up to each one of us through the Holy Spirit to know what is given has to line up with the full context of scripture. There is only one doctrine which is the doctrine of Christ, but many doctrines of man we need to discern so we are not mislead into believing a false doctrines. No one holds all truths and never will as we are ever learning and could never exhaust the teachings within the Bible.

1Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I understand how some could believe in eternal unconditional security from some verses that are found in the N.T.

However, I've never understood how there is any debate about Baptism.

I have learned a lot of this forum....even a lot from you.
John always brings good perspectives and so does Stovebolts.

Someone could study the bible all their life and always have something to learn because of the amount of time and the cultures is spans.

When I first became born again and changed denomination and read the bible for the very first time (late 20's) I just felt like....Wow....I know so much now.
LOL
The moment I started to speak to other born again Christians I realized immediately how very little I knew. Still feel like that...and am happy to feel like that.

When I read post from those like JLB or Oz I am truly amazed at their knowledge.

It's wonderful to have calm and intelligent persons on this forum!
 

HeIsRisen2018

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It's about transparency, grace, and unity.
These things are essential for any community. And we do have a community here.

No one is trying to be at the top of the community here. We are all friends separated by miles and not anything else. We all wouldn't hesitate to visit each other in their homes.

And this has produced an atmosphere...a culture. One that most here are proud of and willing to defend.

We are a motley crew that most in the world simply don't understand and are very dismissive of...to their detriment.

The 50-60 people who show up every week or day here are a rather large group that creates envy for those on the outside wanting in. They want to belong with us and don't really understand how to join us except by stirring up trouble.
And that's what people claim us moderators are for...but actually we aren't. It's every single one of the family's job to cling to the culture here.
The mods here aren't theology police. We are here for the spammers and wackanoodles that believe we are here to use this place for free advertising or for some wacky theory of how Jesus was an alien from outer space.
We also are here to remind you of the love and respect you have for each other.

We are individuals who each has a unique perspective of the Father. But at no point is my brother not going to be my brother. (Or sister)

We know each others faults and strengths. And love each other anyway. Where else can you get that except family?

But you really can't codify that. You can't tell people how to love... just that they should. We, the regulars, know how...and that's what we must do to those who are new.




First of all the reason we don't visit each other in our homes is for safety reasons,.. second of all I come here every day. Are you calling little old me a troublemaker? *Dramatic gasp* :shock Well then you would be correct,.. but it takes one to know one muhahaha!!! :mischief
 

Allen Wynne

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If you would be so kind to tell us what part then we can go back and check it out. There is no rocking the boat as we like feedback.
Very well.
Chapter 6 talks about the devil and his fallen angels, who he calls demons and evil spirits.
You won't find this in the Bible.
Furthermore, Jesus talked about demons more than anyone else and never once referred to them as fallen angels.
If you choose to believe this, find.
But putting it in a statement of faith for all of us to believe is not biblical.
 

for_his_glory

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Very well. Chapter 6 talks about the devil and his fallen angels, who he calls demons and evil spirits. You won't find this in the Bible. Furthermore, Jesus talked about demons more than anyone else and never once referred to them as fallen angels. If you choose to believe this, find. But putting it in a statement of faith for all of us to believe is not biblical.
Devils, demons, evil spirits, fallen angels, unclean spirits are those angels who joined Lucifer/Satan, who is also a fallen angel, in his rebellion against God. There are at least 21 scriptures in the Bible that mention the words demon, evil spirits, devil and fallen angels. Below are just a few out of the KJV. Some versions call them unclean spirits. Fallen angels, which I could not find the exact wording, only means those ones that rebelled against God and follow after Satan as they are called demons or evil spirits.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out,

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 

Allen Wynne

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Devils, demons, evil spirits, fallen angels, unclean spirits are those angels who joined Lucifer/Satan, who is also a fallen angel, in his rebellion against God. There are at least 21 scriptures in the Bible that mention the words demon, evil spirits, devil and fallen angels. Below are just a few out of the KJV. Some versions call them unclean spirits. Fallen angels, which I could not find the exact wording, only means those ones that rebelled against God and follow after Satan as they are called demons or evil spirits.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out,

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
very weak glory, you need to do better than that
 

Allen Wynne

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Devils, demons, evil spirits, fallen angels, unclean spirits are those angels who joined Lucifer/Satan, who is also a fallen angel, in his rebellion against God. There are at least 21 scriptures in the Bible that mention the words demon, evil spirits, devil and fallen angels. Below are just a few out of the KJV. Some versions call them unclean spirits. Fallen angels, which I could not find the exact wording, only means those ones that rebelled against God and follow after Satan as they are called demons or evil spirits.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out,

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
So this is your answer to me.
You've shown me no proof of anyone in Scripture calling a demon a fallen angel or a fallen angel being called a demon.
But you give me these unfounded Scriptures as your proof.
Very poor work on your part.
So I can assume you believe as the rest of the leadership believes that these verses in the Statement of Faith are to remain the way they are worded?
Is that correct?
I prove you wrong but you decide to do nothing about it.
I knew I should have just kept my mouth shut.
 

JohnDB

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So this is your answer to me.
You've shown me no proof of anyone in Scripture calling a demon a fallen angel or a fallen angel being called a demon.
But you give me these unfounded Scriptures as your proof.
Very poor work on your part.
So I can assume you believe as the rest of the leadership believes that these verses in the Statement of Faith are to remain the way they are worded?
Is that correct?
I prove you wrong but you decide to do nothing about it.
I knew I should have just kept my mouth shut.
Easy there cowboy,
This isn't as cut and dried as you might imagine.
And for the record, I'm very aware of the theological positions that you are talking about.
(Notice the plural...one is a healthy position and the other is not as healthy... neither of them are very popular as they once were because of the lack of scholarship and inconsistent hermeneutics so prevalent today.

So much of what you are referencing is mostly forgotten understanding. (From the '60's and early '70's.)

And we need to be careful with how things are worded. Just as scripture was careful...and have a message of Grace for those who are on either side of this issue but clear enough for everyone to understand.

So,
Instead of just being a Karen...help come up with a solution following the parameters I just mentioned. If you have a better wording for this section I'm all ears.
I really am open to suggestions on this. What you are talking about didn't escape my notice when this was getting drafted but I kept quiet as I didn't have any better ideas for the wording then.
You can help us with this... I'd rather you do that than be disgruntled over it.
 

Allen Wynne

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Easy there cowboy,
This isn't as cut and dried as you might imagine.
And for the record, I'm very aware of the theological positions that you are talking about.
(Notice the plural...one is a healthy position and the other is not as healthy... neither of them are very popular as they once were because of the lack of scholarship and inconsistent hermeneutics so prevalent today.

So much of what you are referencing is mostly forgotten understanding. (From the '60's and early '70's.)

And we need to be careful with how things are worded. Just as scripture was careful...and have a message of Grace for those who are on either side of this issue but clear enough for everyone to understand.

So,
Instead of just being a Karen...help come up with a solution following the parameters I just mentioned. If you have a better wording for this section I'm all ears.
I really am open to suggestions on this. What you are talking about didn't escape my notice when this was getting drafted but I kept quiet as I didn't have any better ideas for the wording then.
You can help us with this... I'd rather you do that than be disgruntled over it.
I say eliminate it as there is no place for it.
It is something to be debated in a thread, not something that belongs in a Statement of Faith.
Anyway, I wasn't in anyway upset with Glory and the answers she gave, but rather upset that someone would put this in a statement of faith to begin with and no one to debate it's presence there.
I've always been that way.
 

JohnDB

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I say eliminate it as there is no place for it.
It is something to be debated in a thread, not something that belongs in a Statement of Faith.
Anyway, I wasn't in anyway upset with Glory and the answers she gave, but rather upset that someone would put this in a statement of faith to begin with and no one to debate it's presence there.
I've always been that way.
You have been a member of this community for a long time.
I would think that a section of the TOS that includes your contribution is needed. Not a section that you got deleted.
 

Allen Wynne

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You have been a member of this community for a long time.
I would think that a section of the TOS that includes your contribution is needed. Not a section that you got deleted.
That's a classic epee maneuver...
 

JohnDB

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Does it have to be replaced?
If I help rid false doctrine from the statement of faith, is that not contributing to it?
I believe in those inspired...
You have been inspired to say something. You reject what has been come up with...I'm good with that. I even agree.
This subject has been discussed a few times here...I see no reason to limit those discussions.
So I'm asking you for help in crafting this section to be more tolerable for everyone. I'm currently out of ideas. I just had to whip up a lesson out of whole cloth today for my Sunday School class. I'm done with thinking hard for the day... maybe for a while yet.

You, on the other hand, are inspired to say something is wrong here. I'm asking you for help with it because I happen to agree with your logic and reasoning. You have been in Christian circles for a long time, you are knowledgeable about scripture, and you have been a member of this community for years. All those things add up to me to ask you for help in rewriting this section.
I mean really, what would you do in my position?
 

Allen Wynne

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I believe in those inspired...
You have been inspired to say something. You reject what has been come up with...I'm good with that. I even agree.
This subject has been discussed a few times here...I see no reason to limit those discussions.
So I'm asking you for help in crafting this section to be more tolerable for everyone. I'm currently out of ideas. I just had to whip up a lesson out of whole cloth today for my Sunday School class. I'm done with thinking hard for the day... maybe for a while yet.

You, on the other hand, are inspired to say something is wrong here. I'm asking you for help with it because I happen to agree with your logic and reasoning. You have been in Christian circles for a long time, you are knowledgeable about scripture, and you have been a member of this community for years. All those things add up to me to ask you for help in rewriting this section.
I mean really, what would you do in my position?
I'll see what I can do, tomorrow.
 

Allen Wynne

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I believe in those inspired...
You have been inspired to say something. You reject what has been come up with...I'm good with that. I even agree.
This subject has been discussed a few times here...I see no reason to limit those discussions.
So I'm asking you for help in crafting this section to be more tolerable for everyone. I'm currently out of ideas. I just had to whip up a lesson out of whole cloth today for my Sunday School class. I'm done with thinking hard for the day... maybe for a while yet.

You, on the other hand, are inspired to say something is wrong here. I'm asking you for help with it because I happen to agree with your logic and reasoning. You have been in Christian circles for a long time, you are knowledgeable about scripture, and you have been a member of this community for years. All those things add up to me to ask you for help in rewriting this section.
I mean really, what would you do in my position?
For your consideration;
Starting with the 2nd paragraph, lead in with "We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ" and eliminate "of Nazareth is the promised Messiah".
I think it reads better, especially to a new believer.
Then eliminate the trinity paragraph.
It is very controversial and is more suited to be debated (as we should know it always caused a lot of controversy, arguments, etc.).
Then eliminate satan from the statement of faith altogether.
He isn't part of a statement of faith, period.

When in doubt, always use the Apostle's Creed as a guideline.
 

for_his_glory

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Have you not heard the expression of falling away from grace? How about for all have sinned and fallen away from the glory of God. Fallen angels, fallen humans are all the same thing as falling away from God whether in heaven or here on earth. Angels and humans are God's creation as some fall away from God like Satan and the third of the angels that follow after him.

What do you think demons and devils mean in those scriptures I gave and that of being a part of the statement of faith?

I see no need to change that part as in how scripture describes demons and devils.
 

JohnDB

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We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

We believe in a personal Satan, who, along with all his evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever.

We believe that genuine believers are renewed by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ
.

Allen Wynne
Here is a proposed change incorporating some of the ideas you had.
We must leave the Trinity in this as it leaves us open to discussions that are blasphemous and upset so many of the membership. I tend to believe that God isn't exactly limited to three but those discussions never go anywhere since the best we can do is generally apprehend the three. (And many can't)

But I included some deletions and additions...as per our discussion.

Tell me if you think that it is more tolerable than what was there before. (Notice the insertion of "life"...that's my thought)
 

Allen Wynne

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We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

We believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah, born of a virgin, totally without sin, God in human flesh, the One Who died on the cross for our sins, was buried, rose again from the dead on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father in heaven, where He now intercedes for us who believe in Him.

We believe that all humanity is lost and born with a sinful nature, and can only be saved by a personal faith in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not by any human merit or performance.

We believe in a personal Satan, who, along with all his evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, but can be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ our Lord.

We believe that heaven is a real place where the saved will dwell forever.

We believe that genuine believers are renewed by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all believers need to be filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a godly life and to be bold in our witness for the Lord.

We believe in the spiritual unity of all genuine believers in the Lord Jesus Christ
.

Allen Wynne
Here is a proposed change incorporating some of the ideas you had.
We must leave the Trinity in this as it leaves us open to discussions that are blasphemous and upset so many of the membership. I tend to believe that God isn't exactly limited to three but those discussions never go anywhere since the best we can do is generally apprehend the three. (And many can't)

But I included some deletions and additions...as per our discussion.

Tell me if you think that it is more tolerable than what was there before. (Notice the insertion of "life"...that's my thought)
Yours is very good, thank you.
 
Last edited:

JohnDB

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Devils, demons, evil spirits, fallen angels, unclean spirits are those angels who joined Lucifer/Satan, who is also a fallen angel, in his rebellion against God. There are at least 21 scriptures in the Bible that mention the words demon, evil spirits, devil and fallen angels. Below are just a few out of the KJV. Some versions call them unclean spirits. Fallen angels, which I could not find the exact wording, only means those ones that rebelled against God and follow after Satan as they are called demons or evil spirits.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out,

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Allen wasn't active when these discussions were going on. And you are like most who don't know about the theological positions that he and I are aware of...both need to be recognized. So...I'm looking at this from a pragmatic view. Both are valid viewpoints.
 

JohnDB

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for_his_glory ,
The viewpoint of "Satan" being anthropomorphic creation(literary device) of man's sinful natures is not a horrible thing. They are of the viewpoint that is uniquely humble...that they, themselves, can be a "satan" or can be a messenger/angel/saint.
Choice, desires, and wants all playing a role.

It's not a very popular viewpoint but it does make sense. And there's a bunch of logic to it as well. It makes Satan less and God more. However ,it doesn't negate a person's satan from being able to keep them from the prize of heaven by choosing to be evil. These people take more blame on themselves than average.

The explanation is long and drawn out about the various literary devices employed in the scriptures that so many see as literal. It requires the use of original language definitions and heavy knowledge of grammar. Even language teachers today have trouble keeping up with some of this. But it was a popular theological position back in the late '60's when Billy Graham was first really getting going good.
I'm aware because of my parents studies and being introduced to the theologies as a very small boy. (All of us dismissed the theologies at the time but I later decided to understand what they were going on about)
 

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