New Statement of Faith

[OzSpen]

As far as the three baptisms, why can't they all occur at the same time? What if we thought of it like we think of the Trinity?
In other words, instead of pitting them against another and assigning a variable scale to each, what if we gave them equal footing where they actually complimented each other?

The beauty of the trinity is this. When one is lifted up, all are lifted up. When one is disgraced, all are disgraced. I believe this is the same concept with baptism.

Thoughts?

SB,

I understand there are 4 baptisms:

1. 'Baptized into Christ' (Gal 3:26-28). This probably incorporated being 'baptized into one body' (1 Cor 12:13);
2. Believers' baptism in water (Matt 28:19; Acts 2:41; 8:13, 38; 9:18; 10:48; 16:15, 33; 18:8; 19:5);
3. Believers baptized or filled with the Holy Spirit (Joel 2:28-29; Acts 2:1-4; 4:31; 8:14-20; 9:17; 10:44-48; 19:1-6);
4. Baptism in suffering (John 15:18-16:4; Luke 12:11-12, 50; Mark 10:38-39; 1 Pet 4:12

I don't consider in a basic SoF that all of these baptisms are needed. We need to remember that a SoF contains the core beliefs and is not a comprehensive or less substantial statement of beliefs.

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

I agree that Gal 3:27 speaks of being 'baptized into Christ'.

• What does that mean?
• Well, you 'have put on Christ'. Again, what does that mean?
• When does this 'baptized into Christ' happen?
• At conversion?
• At baptism?
• When baptized in the Spirit?
• When does that happen?
• Etc.

Being 'baptized into Christ' is biblical theology. So are baptism of the Spirit, substitutionary atonement, Jesus the God-man (hypostatic union), all of God's attributes, speaking in tongues, etc - yet none of these appear in the SoF.

My view is: Why add a statement, 'baptized into Christ', about which there are evangelical differences of understanding?

Citing a verse doesn't deal with the exegesis and exposition of the meaning of the verse.

Oz

Spencer and JLB
Being baptized into Christ can mean all of the above. It matters not if all baptisms take place at the same time or at different times regardless if there are 3 or 4 baptisms. They all are encompassed into ONE baptism as a whole.

 

[OzSpen]

Good stuff Spencer, thanks.

I did add your section of the Sin Nature, thank you for that. While I don't agree with infant baptism, I do see how some can get there through scripture. Baptism is not a line in the sand between Heaven and Hell and I'm sure we will see many believers who were baptized as infants. However, I do see baptism as normative in the scriptures for adults who have confessed.

I guess my question is this. Do you think our SOF as it currently reads on baptism is broad enough to include the varying views of baptism?

SF,

In the current 'Doctrinal Statement', I found nothing on baptism.

By the way, I had to use the 'search' facility to find the original SoF = Doctrinal Statement.

As for the proposed revision on baptism, I propose adding this basic statement:

​

We believe baptism is for believers as part of discipleship. However, no person will be excluded from this forum who believes in infant baptism.​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Spencer and JLB
Being baptized into Christ can mean all of the above. It matters not if all baptisms take place at the same time or at different times regardless if there are 3 or 4 baptisms. They all are encompassed into ONE baptism as a whole.

SB,

With that I disagree. The baptism of suffering cannot happen immediately at the time of initial repentance and faith.

Being 'baptized into Christ' (whatever that means) probably happens at the time of salvation.

Baptism with water happens AFTER salvation, even though it might be only hours or a few days. In my case, it was many months after salvation and teaching on baptism. Today, with such low theological knowledge in the pew, I think it's beneficial to have baptismal classes.

On the Day of Pentecost and in Samaria and Ephesus (Book of Acts), the baptism of the Spirit came after salvation. It was after salvation for John Wesley, Charles Finney and Evan Roberts.

Evan Roberts was used by God in the 1904 Welsh revival. See his teaching on: 4 Steps to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit by Evan Roberts.

Oz

 

[ezra]

when we minimize that picture and water down baptism to an unessential work, we've lost the beauty intended. Not only that, but we disregard the words of Jesus when he tells us to baptiz

i never or have i ever said baptism is a unessential work. i said it follows salvation and it does can a person be saved while being baptized ...? not the baptism it self . but they can realize they are lost and call on jesus . there is no one certain place or event to be saved. some are saved in a kitchen a 52 year old woman i know did that. some saved on the side of the bed. others on death bed before drawing the last breath. it is the spirit who quickens, not the flesh .

We can say that one is not part of the Church unless they are baptized.

yes and no we become part of the church at salvation. the thief on the cross was not baptized.. some had said grace was not around.. i disagree grace is jesus .there are those who can not physically be baptized due to health reasons.. i heard of a man whose health would not allow him so he asked if the preacher could pour water over his head.. i do believe in being fully submerged underwater ..God knows our heart . my point is keep your statement of faith simple as you had it..if you want articles of faith or say study guides set up as a permanent sticky DO IT

 

[stovebolts]

SF,

In the current 'Doctrinal Statement', I found nothing on baptism.

By the way, I had to use the 'search' facility to find the original SoF = Doctrinal Statement.

As for the proposed revision on baptism, I propose adding this basic statement:

​

We believe baptism is for believers as part of discipleship. However, no person will be excluded from this forum who believes in infant baptism.​

Oz

I can agree with this. I don't support infant baptism, but I understand..
Going to dinner with my wife now, I'll be back online tomorrow after church.

 

[OzSpen]

I can agree with this. I don't support infant baptism, but I understand..
Going to dinner with my wife now, I'll be back online tomorrow after church.

SB,

I also support believers' baptism, but in many evangelical denominations today that support covenant theology, they endorse and practise infant baptism.

I don't think they'll be excluded from the kingdom because of this belief.

I hope you had a good time whooping it up for dinner with your wife?

Oz

 

[JLB]

Spencer and JLB
Being baptized into Christ can mean all of the above. It matters not if all baptisms take place at the same time or at different times regardless if there are 3 or 4 baptisms. They all are encompassed into ONE baptism as a whole.

Let’s set aside the idea, for now, that a person can receive the three different baptism’s, and are required to receive them.


Let’s just identify the three different baptisms that are common to all Christians.


Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20



Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2



Into Moses = Into Christ

In the cloud = in the Holy Spirit

In the sea = In water

SB,

I understand there are 4 baptisms:

1. 'Baptized into Christ' (Gal 3:26-28). This probably incorporated being 'baptized into one body' (1 Cor 12:13);
2. Believers' baptism in water (Matt 28:19; Acts 2:41; 8:13, 38; 9:18; 10:48; 16:15, 33; 18:8; 19:5);
3. Believers baptized or filled with the Holy Spirit (Joel 2:28-29; Acts 2:1-4; 4:31; 8:14-20; 9:17; 10:44-48; 19:1-6);
4. Baptism in suffering (John 15:18-16:4; Luke 12:11-12, 50; Mark 10:38-39; 1 Pet 4:12

I don't consider in a basic SoF that all of these baptisms are needed. We need to remember that a SoF contains the core beliefs and is not a comprehensive or less substantial statement of beliefs.

Oz

Could you post the scriptures that refer specifically to
“Baptism in suffering”, so we can study them?


By scripture, I mean the actual scripture, not the reference to the scripture.

Example -

“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. John 15:18


There is no reference to baptism in suffering in this scripture.



Jesus mentioned the “baptism He is baptized with”, which correlates to the “cup He was about to drink”.


But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
Matthew 20:22


This was specific to Christ, and His crucifixion.

As it turns out, Peter was also crucified on the cross, although not mentioned specifically in scripture it was alluded to in the prophecy from Christ, to Peter.


This is not common to all Christians, and was specific to Jesus.




JLB

 

[JLB]

SF,

In the current 'Doctrinal Statement', I found nothing on baptism.

By the way, I had to use the 'search' facility to find the original SoF = Doctrinal Statement.

As for the proposed revision on baptism, I propose adding this basic statement:

​

We believe baptism is for believers as part of discipleship. However, no person will be excluded from this forum who believes in infant baptism.​

Oz

This statement may be the best move for the new SOF, to avoid controversy.




Maybe just let folks discuss baptism in the threads.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

I also support believers' baptism, but in many evangelical denominations today that support covenant theology, they endorse and practise infant baptism.

I don't think they'll be excluded from the kingdom because of this belief.

I hope you had a good time whooping it up for dinner with your wife?

Oz

Thanks Spencer. Had a wonderful time with her post surgery. It's been nice getting her out of the house.

Im with you on infant baptism. John Mark Hicks, Professor of theology at Lipscomb University wrote about this very thing which was very controversial within conservative churches of Christ. I am thankful for his book on the matter as it has deeply framed my biblical view on baptism.

I believe we should promote a believers baptism (without going to deep in defining that term) yet, as you say, accept those who were baptized as infants their parents meant well, and God Judges the heart.

I am on my phone right now, but later, when I get to my computer I will update the SOF.

JohnDB and WIP , both of you have been very quiet. I'd like your input if you have any.

 

[stovebolts]

i never or have i ever said baptism is a unessential work. i said it follows salvation and it does can a person be saved while being baptized ...? not the baptism it self . but they can realize they are lost and call on jesus . there is no one certain place or event to be saved. some are saved in a kitchen a 52 year old woman i know did that. some saved on the side of the bed. others on death bed before drawing the last breath. it is the spirit who quickens, not the flesh . yes and no we become part of the church at salvation. the thief on the cross was not baptized.. some had said grace was not around.. i disagree grace is jesus .there are those who can not physically be baptized due to health reasons.. i heard of a man whose health would not allow him so he asked if the preacher could pour water over his head.. i do believe in being fully submerged underwater ..God knows our heart . my point is keep your statement of faith simple as you had it..if you want articles of faith or say study guides set up as a permanent sticky DO IT

My studies on baptism have brought me to believe that it is an essential part of our salvation. Jesus commands us to baptize, which infers obedience to being baptized. Why would anyone disobey such a simple commandment from our Lord? Can those who are willfully disobedient to such a simple commandment really claim salvation ?

With few exceptions, it is normative in scriptures that baptism is a response to the gospel and the hearer of the gospel desires baptism. In simple terms, the gospel is the good news story of salvation and baptism is a first act of participating in the newness of life in our Lord and Savior. It is a beautiful picture of being United in Christ's death and ressurectuon.

But some have gotten to smart for their britches and have distorted and distracted from this reality we have in Christ. For me, it deeply saddens me.

 

[JLB]

My studies on baptism have brought me to believe that it is an essential part of our salvation. Jesus commands us to baptize, which infers obedience to being baptized. Why would anyone disobey such a simple commandment from our Lord? Can those who are willfully disobedient to such a simple commandment really claim salvation ?

With few exceptions, it is normative in scriptures that baptism is a response to the gospel and the hearer of the gospel desires baptism. In simple terms, the gospel is the good news story of salvation and baptism is a first act of participating in the newness of life in our Lord and Savior. It is a beautiful picture of being United in Christ's death and ressurectuon.

But some have gotten to smart for their britches and have distorted and distracted from this reality we have in Christ. For me, it deeply saddens me.

Yes, well said.


I hope someday you will apply what you said just as passionately about the baptism with the Holy Spirit, as you did about water baptism.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Yes, well said.


I hope someday you will apply what you said just as passionately about the baptism with the Holy Spirit, as you did about water baptism.




JLB

It very well be that my experience was so life changing for me, that's what I was drawn to. As a result, I may not fully comprehend any other way in which I could have received the Holy Spirit. I find it hard to describe the experience, and I felt the Holy Spirit enter me. I knew without being told that I was a new creation. I knew that I was a part of something bigger than myself.

Growing up poor, I figured everyone knew how to fix their car, except the rich folk who could pay to have their car repaired. although a Baptist brought me to Christ and baptized me, I thought everyone experienced a baptism that I was baptized with.

The beauty of scriptureviscthat it shows us God meets us where we are, and what the Eunich experienced through baptism was a bit different than the Jews in Acts 2, or Cornelious and how could we forget the church in Corinth, yet Paul still called them brother and did not question their baptism other than to set the record straight that they were baptized into Christ.

I really should listen to other people and their baptism because I know that everyone may have a different experience as God sees fit.

 

[JLB]

It very well be that my experience was so life changing for me, that's what I was drawn to. As a result, I may not fully comprehend any other way in which I could have received the Holy Spirit. I find it hard to describe the experience, and I felt the Holy Spirit enter me. I knew without being told that I was a new creation. I knew that I was a part of something bigger than myself.

Growing up poor, I figured everyone knew how to fix their car, except the rich folk who could pay to have their car repaired. although a Baptist brought me to Christ and baptized me, I thought everyone experienced a baptism that I was baptized with.

The beauty of scriptureviscthat it shows us God meets us where we are, and what the Eunich experienced through baptism was a bit different than the Jews in Acts 2, or Cornelious and how could we forget the church in Corinth, yet Paul still called them brother and did not question their baptism other than to set the record straight that they were baptized into Christ.

I really should listen to other people and their baptism because I know that everyone may have a different experience as God sees fit.

All I’m saying is there is another baptism.

I’m not saying we are not brothers in Christ.
I’m not saying you didn’t receive the Spirit.

I’m saying you were baptized in water.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is different.

There is more God has for you, and your son.



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Thanks Spencer. Had a wonderful time with her post surgery. It's been nice getting her out of the house.

Im with you on infant baptism. John Mark Hicks, Professor of theology at Lipscomb University wrote about this very thing which was very controversial within conservative churches of Christ. I am thankful for his book on the matter as it has deeply framed my biblical view on baptism.

I believe we should promote a believers baptism (without going to deep in defining that term) yet, as you say, accept those who were baptized as infants their parents meant well, and God Judges the heart.

I am on my phone right now, but later, when I get to my computer I will update the SOF.

JohnDB and WIP , both of you have been very quiet. I'd like your input if you have any.

Yeah, it's amazing how busy I get even though I am currently unemployed.

I've bought a truck...2008 Silverado crew cab. But I've gotta get tags for it... and go buy a new title for my old one. (Lost it somewhere)

I've made my views apparent in another thread about "sin nature".

Sorry, I've just been out of it for a bit.
I'm so ready for the holidays to be over and back on a normal schedule. I'm exhausted.

 

[stovebolts]

All I’m saying is there is another baptism.

I’m not saying we are not brothers in Christ.
I’m not saying you didn’t receive the Spirit.

I’m saying you were baptized in water.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is different.

There is more God has for you, and your son.



JLB

With all due respect JLB, I'd like to share another story.
21 years ago I moved from Washington State to Michigan. This was after coming back to my roots in the Lord ironically through my stint in Scientology, a failed marriage, the loss of my first born child, loosing my oldest daughter to Foster Care because it was revealed through the DNA test she wasn't my biological child and I didn't have the fight to endure. Most men would have given up, but I knew through it all God had better plans for me. What kept me grounded, even when I hated and dispised God with my lips was the feeling of God making me whole when I came out of the baptismal waters.

My wife grew up in the church of Christ and her roots are deep and span generations. Although I had read the Bible several times, I was hungry to study it, and understand it. The church of Christ was big on study and I was amazed at their knowledge.

After I married my wife, the Elders invited me to a meeting which I found out was to question me about baptism. Having experienced being in a court of law, I felt like I was being interrogated and when the verdict was in, it was determined I was baptized with Johns baptism and I was in need of baptism to relieve the Holy Spirit for the remission of my sins and my soul was at stake to the fires of hell.

I looked up to these people, and suddenly I was questioning my salvation and after agonizing over this, and wanting to please God, I submitted to the Eldership and was baptized.

When I came out of the water, I knew in my heart it was wrong. I could feel it in the depths of my soul and it set me on a projectile to study it deeper. At the same time, it caused me to stand firm on my experience when I was baptized at 13. I was promised three things.
1. All my sins were forgiven.
2. The promise Jesus would never leave or forsake me.
3. I would receive the Holy Spirit

At the time of my baptism, I didn't really know these three things. I said the sinners prayer and was reading my Bible daily. But I knew something was missing. When I read Acts 2, I saw baptism as bringing one into a community of believers, and that was my attraction. Mind you, I grew up in a Catholic orphanage before being tossed between Foster Care until 4th grade when I went to live with my Dad, only to end up incarcerated at age 12 -16. Yeah, I had some trust issues.

When I was raised out of the water, I felt inwardly clean and I felt complete. I felt God in me.

This one experience has been my bedrock and I know I received the Holy Spirit when I was being raised out of the water and into newness of life.

Help me understand what you mean when you say I have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But when you do, I only ask that you tell me your story. I want to know what you experienced that was your bedrock experience. The one you fall back on when you wonder where God is, or why terrible things seem to happen.

To Oz"s point with being baptized in Christ's suffering, I can attest to this. I understand it and have suffered with Christ How else could I lift my hands to God and give him praise at the side of my daughters casket just a few short years ago.

I do want to understand your baptism by the Holy Spirit and I look forward to hearing your story,

Your Brother in Christ,
Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

Yeah, it's amazing how busy I get even though I am currently unemployed.

I've bought a truck...2008 Silverado crew cab. But I've gotta get tags for it... and go buy a new title for my old one. (Lost it somewhere)

I've made my views apparent in another thread about "sin nature".

Sorry, I've just been out of it for a bit.
I'm so ready for the holidays to be over and back on a normal schedule. I'm exhausted.

Sounds like you need to get back to work!
Call me later if you have time.

 

[JohnDB]

Sounds like you need to get back to work!
Call me later if you have time.

We are doing the cleanup and dressing to go after tags and titles. Once done downtown and elsewhere...then I will be able to yak a good bit.

and we got a bit to talk about.

 

[JLB]

When I was raised out of the water, I felt inwardly clean and I felt complete. I felt God in me.

This one experience has been my bedrock and I know I received the Holy Spirit when I was being raised out of the water and into newness of life.

Amen.

I believe it.


I also believe the Apostles received the Holy Spirit when Christ breathed on them.


And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20:22


He also said this to them, after they had received the Holy Spirit -


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Amen.

I believe it.


I also believe the Apostles received the Holy Spirit when Christ breathed on them.


And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. John 20:22


He also said this to them, after they had received the Holy Spirit -


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:4-8



JLB

Yes, that is the verse the Elders at the North church of Christ used to invalidate my baptism when I was 13. They too said I had not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Tell me what this looks like, what is expected. Have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit? How do you know for sure you were?

Lastly, are you willing to share your experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit?