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Bible Study Nicolaitians and other bad guys

Anto9us2

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Nicolaitians are mentioned, very unfavorably, in chapter two of Revelation. Those of the Church at Ephesus are praised by Jesus for some things, admonished for leaving their first love, and then again commended for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitians, which Jesus also hates. Those at Pergamos are chewed out for having among them the doctrine of the Nicolaitians, a thing Jesus HATES.
 

Anto9us2

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This thread will delve into theories of who the Nicky' s were, and what they believe. I will get to the two top theories of who the Nicolaitians were and what they believed. The other "bad guys" in Revelation are holders of the Doctrine of Balaam, and those who say they are Jews, but are not, and are of the Synagogue of Satan. Also, one "bad girl", Jezebel. We know the historical Jezebel opposed God at the time of Elijah and Elisha, but who the Jezebel in Revelation was, I dunno, who was this MEAN GIRL of Revelation?

This thread does not get into DOGMA, and I am not a Teacher. My gift is supposed to be EXHORTATION, so I exhort you Bereans, metaphorically speaking, here to research for yourselves and give input, get your rocks ready to throw at these "Revelation bad guys".
 

Anto9us2

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A dominant theory is that Nicolaitians were followers of one Nicholas, one of the first seven deacons in the church - but it's a theory, we have no chapter and verse for that, and Nicholas the Deacon was in JERUSALEM, and we in Revelation are over in Asia Minor, Ephesus and Pergamum specifically, so I personally reject this lead theory of who Nicolaitians were.
 

Anto9us2

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Nicholas according to tradition, theory or legend or what have you, had a good-looking wife and got others involved in fornication with her, and sexual promiscuity is allegedly a trait of this sect. But doctrine of Balaam gets into sexual deviance, which is not specifically m mentioned regarding Nicolaitians, I mean, two different sects are described - Balaam-followers are pegged as fornicators, Nicolaitians are not.
 

Anto9us2

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The second theory of who Nicolaitians were is what I lean towards. And it gets into something I want to discuss in the thread - the rise of a Clergy-Laity distinction in Christianity. Just by the two Greek words which can form NICOLAITIANS - it is proposed as THE MINORITY THEORY that Nicolaitians are those who step on the people, they NIKE the LAOS, they hold themselves as a special class who are set apart from the common people.
 

Anto9us2

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As far as PRIESTHOOD within Christianity, I hold to what is known as "the priesthood of the believer", based on Peter's passage about ALL CHRISTIANS, that "ye are a peculiar people, a royal priesthood, a chosen generation" (I am paraphrasing, trying to get all my thoughts down)
 

Anto9us2

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High Priests get bad press in the New Testament, having Jesus arrested, and Paul got into it with a high priest, insulting one and later renigging because Paul didn't know at first that he was the high priest.

But the point is, that in the New Testament, the Levitical priesthood is KAPUT, over with. We have one High Priest, Jesus, of the order of Melchisedec - one Mediator, the Apostle of our FAITH.
 

Anto9us2

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John the Baptist is at the watershed between OT and NT, he had the credentials to be a Priest, but instead was out at Jordan River, eating locusts and wild honey, wearing a thick leather belt over - camel-skin tunic? How bizarre. (I wonder if John had a big belt-buckle in the shape of Texas).
 

Anto9us2

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Point Is - how many of 12 disciples were PRIESTS?

ZERO.

In the NT, we have a new priesthood with one High Priest, and we are ALL priests as Peter said "a chosen generation , a peculiar people, a royal priesthood"
 

Anto9us2

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Jesus said "Call no man Father", but that goes IGNORED, doesn't it?
Catholics, Orthodox and Episcopalians call pastors "priests and Father" as if Jesus had never said a word about it.

So I question the whole clergy-Laity distinction, and lean towards NICOLAITIANS as a sect with incipient clergy-laity chasms among people.
 

Anto9us2

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I went to the Dairy Queen and back - I had a small hamburger and water bottled by John the Baptist - I saw no Nicolaitians along the way.

I basically believe Jesus was NICE - but here He is a HATER - of the deeds and the doctrine of these bad Nicolaitians.

Acts of violence perpetrated by Jesus Are seen in the Temple Cleansing(s). He purposely created a whip out of cords, and drove people out with it. Pretty uncharacteristic of Jesus, but it HAPPENED. At least once, maybe TWICE - for John records in his gospel that TEMPLE CLEANSING occured early in Jesus' ministry - Synoptics put the event in last week of JESUS' life, so many believe there were 2 Temple Cleansing s. I don't know. It is possible that John puts the Cleansing earlier for reasons unknown to us. Anyway, tables could have been overturned twice, who knows for sure.

Jesus seems sarcastic to the Syro-Phoenician woman, whose quick retort of 'crumbs under the table' results in Jesus healing/exercising her possessed daughter.

Jesus is nice to people except in a few instances of calling Scribes VIPERS, calling Herod a FOX, and maybe others.

"For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that through Him, the world might be saved"

So let's go get these Nicolaitians, picture Corporal Klinger from MASH saying " Go ahead and have a Snicker' s Bar - you DID jump on a Nicolaitian today, Dincha? "
 

Anto9us2

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Undaunted by the overwhelming response to his thread, Anto9us2 presses on.

I was originally going to title the thread:

"Nicolaitians, other Bad Guys, and Good Guys"

But that was too long.

The NICKIES themselves, we are searching for their identity and characteristics.

The bad guys are those sects spoken of unfavorably. In letters to the churches/cities in Revelation.

The GOOD GUYS are officers of the Church - Apostles, PROPHETS, Pastors, and Teachers, also Deacons and Bishops...

My next post will enumerate members of THE CLERGY mentioned in the New Testament!
 

Anto9us2

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There being none, we now delve into Good Girls and Bad Girls among the good guys and Bad Guys.

As said, the 1st century JEZEBEL - I am clueless as to her.

Now we address the ambiguity of Paul in his attitude towards WIMMIN.

In Corinthians, he wants women to shut up. But in actuality, we have Priscilla, along with husband Aquila, INSTRUCTING Apollos "more perfectly" in the ways of the Lord, so Priscilla, a fellow TentMaker like her husband and Paul, is indeed doing TEACHING.

New Testament PROPHETS are scarce, we have one named Agabus, and we have Phillip' s four virgin daughters who prophesied. Prophet is ahead of Pastor in the list of offices, so if we have female PROPHETS, what would preclude female PASTORS?

Paul also has Phoebe the Deaconess carry the epistle to the Romans to Rome. So Paul is ambiguous about women in leadership roles, it could be that things had gotten so wild in Corinth, that his "WIMMIN shut up" stuff is limited to there, I dunno.
 

Anto9us2

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I used to go to a fairly small Methodist church with a female pastor who was extremely knowledgeable in Hebrew, her husband Is a retired Methodist Minister.

I have moved to a different area, am considering a Baptist churcdh across the street, or getting rides to big First Methodist, or big, fast-growing Nazarene church.

As far as I know about BAPTISTS, there is Southern Baptist Convention which says NO to wimmin pastors, and General Baptist Convention which might be more accepting, I dunno about church across the street.
 

Reformed05

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There being none, we now delve into Good Girls and Bad Girls among the good guys and Bad Guys.

As said, the 1st century JEZEBEL - I am clueless as to her.

Now we address the ambiguity of Paul in his attitude towards WIMMIN.

In Corinthians, he wants women to shut up. But in actuality, we have Priscilla, along with husband Aquila, INSTRUCTING Apollos "more perfectly" in the ways of the Lord, so Priscilla, a fellow TentMaker like her husband and Paul, is indeed doing TEACHING.

New Testament PROPHETS are scarce, we have one named Agabus, and we have Phillip' s four virgin daughters who prophesied. Prophet is ahead of Pastor in the list of offices, so if we have female PROPHETS, what would preclude female PASTORS?

Paul also has Phoebe the Deaconess carry the epistle to the Romans to Rome. So Paul is ambiguous about women in leadership roles, it could be that things had gotten so wild in Corinth, that his "WIMMIN shut up" stuff is limited to there, I dunno.
Hmmmm. You may be right! There was a lot in those posts and I feel enlightened and informed but sort of at a loss as to what to say.LOL
I like your take on the Nicolations but as you say, who knows really. In any case it still stands I believe that scripture makes it clear the office of priest is done away with for Christians. I think it's ok to call your dad father if that is what He prefers, but certainly not a church official. It may be considered a title of respect for the office but then why don't we call judges father and or mother? As for women preachers, I'm on the fence but something seems a bit off about it according to what the Bible says. Man the head and all that. Women bristle at that these days and I'm a woman but I have learned to UNDERSTAND it without getting my hackles up. Personally I have never met a woman preacher I liked to listen to. Our voices are too high, presenting as shrill instead of authoritative. I will probably get "hate" mail now. That last remark was humor.
 

Anto9us2

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Well, me the hard-core Arminian agrees much with Reformed05.

But I am not ON THE FENCE about female PASTORS, I am accepting of heterosexual female PASTORS, "on the fence" is not strong enough for lesbian pastors/bishop in California, but, well that' s in California

Actually, California-Nevada district of United Methodist Church has a lesbian bishop, even though it's against the Discipline as it stands now.

Anyway, Reformed05, thanks for comments.

I know I miss Pastor Lori, but that church is too far away now.

Ahhh, the "hate mail", let it fly!!

Anyone who catches a Nicolatian, Balaam-follower or a Jezebel follower before Christmas, Maybe they get a special no-prize at the Christmas party!
 

Not_Now.Soon

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My next post will enumerate members of THE CLERGY mentioned in the New Testament!
There being none, we now delve into Good Girls and Bad Girls among the good guys and Bad Guys.
Hold up a second. There are a few letters I thought that veered into church leadership. Was it 1 Timothy or 2 Timothy that had instructions on how to choose deacons and elders of those churches. Titus too I think.

Of the teaching that I can remember I think, it goes on this angle. Find people who have their affairs in order and are not drunks, disorderly, have their family in good standing (showing as a sign that they can lead a family) and to not raise in the ranks of church leadership too quickly. These qualities and advise I think were good for the church to find good leaders for their communities, and also good for the leaders so that they weren't temped by pride or immaturity in the faith when they become a leader too quickly. I'd also say that by the standards of needing to have your affairs set in order, that should also be a condition where pastors and church leaders can lose their office if they get caught up in sins. (Not kicked out of the church, but just not leading it any more).

I wonder if doing these things would have changed clergy over the years, or in other denominations, had a better effect for elders over churches and church offices that took on a leadership role. I think it would've had a great effect on the church as a whole. For instence in the clurgy finding out that fellow members of the clurgy were involved in sexual sins wouldn't have acted in hiding the information and relocating the clergy for their own protection (one of the accusations towards the Catholic Church that I've heard). Instead before the issue would have gotten that big the clurgy member would leave their station of leadership, and take on other roles of the church. On the other hand, in other denominations, there are often younger members in the church boards, or who are pastoring the church as a whole. Or the members are young in their faith (not Christian as long). If the standards were to me mature Christians before becoming an elder of a church, then maybe churches would be more stable and not slipping away from bible doctrine more and more over the years (nor get into issues of extremism causing hatred on the street corners).

Just some thoughts. Though sorry for the tangent away from the subject.
 

Anto9us2

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No, it's on subject , NNS.

Qualifications are for Deacons and Bishops to be "the husband of one wife".

Technically, that could knock out BOTH women and celibate men!

It says " husband of one wife " in a setting where many Gentiles might become a Christian and already have three wives!

It Doesn't say "have o n e or zero wives" but one wife.

What does that mean?

If a guy is a widower and got married again, is he out?

Jews had multiple wives, we know, the 12 sons of Israel come from 2 wives PLUS their 2 handmaidens - 12 sons from 4 women.
 

Anto9us2

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1and 2 Timothy, as well as Titus, are referred to as " Pastoral epistles "

Really liiberal scholars say Paul didn't write them - I say he did.
 

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