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No conditions to be reconciled !

Jim Parker

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Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, which is not the case for all enemies and unbelievers Jn 3:18,36. Please explain that. [edited]
[edited]
Christ died and rose again to redeem all of creation. (the "world" [kosmos] of John 3:16)
Jhn 1:11-12 (NKJV) He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Jhn 3:15 (NKJV) .. whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Those who receive and believe are reconciled.
Those who do not receive and believe are not reconciled.
Reconciliation is offered to all mankind.
Not everybody accepts it.
[edited]

iakov the fool
 
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Cygnus

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This contradicts Scripture. While God is reconciled to humanity by the death of His Son, sinners must be reconciled to God through repentance and faith in Christ. No one is excluded, but those who will not repent and believe exclude themselves.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1,2).

If God says that Christ is the propitiation for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD, what right does anyone have to say that He is not?
I normally agree with you...but have to differ slightly here.
The question is....What is meant by the term "world"?

God chooses us. We don't choose God.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

It is the sheep that hear Jesus...and believe.
26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand

prior to being choosen we were dead in our sin and trespasses...and couldn't choose Jesus.
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.....side bar, notice a different use of the term...world.
Verse 8...For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
Faith and grace are a gift.....not all people are given the gift of faith and grace.

Romans 9:15 tells us...For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
....God doesn't have mercy and compassion on everyone...just the chosen.
 

Cygnus

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[edited]
Christ died and rose again to redeem all of creation. (the "world" [kosmos] of John 3:16)
Jhn 1:11-12 (NKJV) He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Jhn 3:15 (NKJV) .. whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Those who receive and believe are reconciled.
Those who do not receive and believe are not reconciled.
Reconciliation is offered to all mankind.
Not everybody accepts it.
[edited]

iakov the fool
Why would someone not accept reconciliation? That makes no sense.

The answer is...you don't accept reconciliation because you can't. You're dead in your sins and trespasses...you are not a sheep who hears Gods call...you are not chosen by God. God has decided not to have mercy and compassion on you.
 
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B

beloved57

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[edited]
Christ died and rose again to redeem all of creation. (the "world" [kosmos] of John 3:16)
Jhn 1:11-12 (NKJV) He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Jhn 3:15 (NKJV) .. whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Those who receive and believe are reconciled.
Those who do not receive and believe are not reconciled.
Reconciliation is offered to all mankind.
Not everybody accepts it.
[edited]

iakov the fool
[edited] Those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies Rom 5:10 and that didn't apply to all enemies without exception since some are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation while being enemies John 3:18,36
 
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Cygnus

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Somebody needs to show why the word...WORLD...means every single human that has lived, is living or will live.
 

JohnDB

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Somebody needs to show why the word...WORLD...means every single human that has lived, is living or will live.
In John 3:16 it should be assumed that grace is no longer limited to the Jews and that is a focus of that verse (along with other themes)

But the limits of the grace is spelled out in John's introduction in John 1:12.
 
B

beloved57

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Somebody needs to show why the word...WORLD...means every single human that has lived, is living or will live.
It doesn't mean that. In fact that word kosmos means :
any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort.
That means all Gods particular Sheep are the World.
 

Jim Parker

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[edited] Those Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies Rom 5:10 and that didn't apply to all enemies without exception since some are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation while being enemies John 3:18,36
The scriptures say 1Jo 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Those who reject Christ remain under God's wrath.
But Christ died as a propitiation for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.
He did NOT die just for some of the world's sins.
But that's just what scripture says. You may have another opinion; I'll stick with scripture.
 
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JohnDB

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The scriptures say 1Jo 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Those who reject Christ remain under God's wrath.
But Christ died as a propitiation for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.
He did NOT die just for some of the world's sins.
But that's just what scripture says. You may have another opinion; I'll stick with scripture.
But. Receiving and believing are crucial.

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Faith is an absolute must...tons of scriptures for that.
 

Jim Parker

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But the limits of the grace is spelled out in John's introduction in John 1:12.
There is no limit to God's grace.
The results of Jesus' death and resurrection are
(1) Jesus has made propitiation for the sins of the entire world, (1 Jn 2:2) once for all time ( Heb 7:27) and
(2) death has been defeated so that all of mankind will be raised immortal and imperishable. (1 Cor 15:51-54).

We get to choose where we will spend eternity: Believe and be united to Christ forever or don't believe and be separated from Christ forever.

The grace of God is infinite. It has no limit and is not withheld from anyone.
But everyone has to decide to receive it or reject it.
 

Jim Parker

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But. Receiving and believing are crucial.
Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.
Faith is an absolute must...tons of scriptures for that.
Right.
 

Cygnus

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But. Receiving and believing are crucial.

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Faith is an absolute must...tons of scriptures for that.
And faith is a gift...that not all people receive.
 

Cygnus

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People seem to forget...God owes no person salvation.
 
B

beloved57

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The scriptures say 1Jo 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Those who reject Christ remain under God's wrath.
But Christ died as a propitiation for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD.
He did NOT die just for some of the world's sins.
But that's just what scripture says. You may have another opinion; I'll stick with scripture.
I never said I dont believe 1 Jn 2:2. However Rom 5:10 states that those sinners Christ died for were reconciled to God while they were enemies. That does not apply to all because many as enemies are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation. So He could not have died for them !
 
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beloved57

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jp
Those who reject Christ remain under God's wrath.
Sorry, but they cannot be any Christ died for since they are reconciled to God by His death even while they reject Christ, whike they are enemies Rom 5:10 !
 

OzSpen

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Reconciled while being enemies !
False religionists, who reject Salvation by Grace, do also reject the Truth of God's Grace, that those Christ has died for, had been reconciled to God, by that Death, while they were enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
I most certainly believe in salvation by grace, but NOT your salvation by irresistible grace. Why? The Bible tells me so!:yes This is what the Bible teaches about salvation by grace:
The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” (Acts 16:29-31 NIV)
What did Paul & Silas say to the Philippian jailer? It's a command, '[You] Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved'. So Paul and Silas confirm that there will be no salvation unless 'you believe' [aorist imperative]. It does not command, 'God will believe in the Lord Jesus for you and you will be saved'. It does not say, 'You will be irresistibly drawn by grace to Christ for salvation and be unconditionally elected'.

So I believe in salvation by grace where the person believes. Acts 16:31 (NIV) does not teach irresistible grace.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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False comment. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies/unbelievers Rom 5:10 ! You are denying what Christ's death done.
I know you don't like the theology of Christ dying for ALL sinners, but as has already been pointed out to you in this thread, that's exactly what 1 John 2:2 (ESV) teaches: 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'.

There are other emphases that point to God freeing the will so that it is open to receiving Christ.

That God has freed the will is inferred from the number of exhortations in Scripture to:
It would be impossible to turn to God, repent or believe if God had not in some way made it possible for such to happen for rebel sinners. He does this by sending grace beforehand. Titus 2:11 (ESV) teaches this, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

The only way I've seen Calvinists squirm out of verses such as 1 John 2:2 (ESV) and Titus 2:11 (ESV) is to redefine 'world' to mean some people groups of the world or the world of the elect. However, we can't do that in either of these 2 verses that make it clear that they refer to the 'sins of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 ESV) and the grace of God has appeared 'bring salvation to all people' (Titus 2:11). This latter verse makes it clear it is 'to all people' and NOT 'to all elect people'.

There is no problem with the grace of God bringing salvation to all people and not all people being saved (universalism) when one understands that God has freed the human will to respond. How do we know? I've demonstrated that above with the exhortations:
  • turn to God;
  • repent, and
  • believe.
None of these exhortations would have meaning if they meant,
  • turn to God and by that God means, I decree you to turn to God and you are forced to make that decision.
  • repent, but God predestines that repentance and it is irresistible;
  • believe, and you have no choice in the matter. You are unconditionally drawn to Christ.
What kind of God would force people to turn to Him, force them to repent, and force them to believe?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Why would someone not accept reconciliation? That makes no sense.

The answer is...you don't accept reconciliation because you can't. You're dead in your sins and trespasses...you are not a sheep who hears Gods call...you are not chosen by God. God has decided not to have mercy and compassion on you.
So to you, He's the God of partiality, favouritism. That's not the nature of God. He has stated, 'So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him' (Acts 10:34-35 ESV).

When God picks and chooses among sinners like your Calvinism states, it contradicts the nature of God.

Oz
 
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beloved57

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In John 3:16 it should be assumed that grace is no longer limited to the Jews and that is a focus of that verse (along with other themes)

But the limits of the grace is spelled out in John's introduction in John 1:12.
That's not what John 1:12 says.
 
B

beloved57

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I know you don't like the theology of Christ dying for ALL sinners, but as has already been pointed out to you in this thread, that's exactly what 1 John 2:2 (ESV) teaches: 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'.

There are other emphases that point to God freeing the will so that it is open to receiving Christ.

That God has freed the will is inferred from the number of exhortations in Scripture to:
It would be impossible to turn to God, repent or believe if God had not in some way made it possible for such to happen for rebel sinners. He does this by sending grace beforehand. Titus 2:11 (ESV) teaches this, 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people'.

The only way I've seen Calvinists squirm out of verses such as 1 John 2:2 (ESV) and Titus 2:11 (ESV) is to redefine 'world' to mean some people groups of the world or the world of the elect. However, we can't do that in either of these 2 verses that make it clear that they refer to the 'sins of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 ESV) and the grace of God has appeared 'bring salvation to all people' (Titus 2:11). This latter verse makes it clear it is 'to all people' and NOT 'to all elect people'.

There is no problem with the grace of God bringing salvation to all people and not all people being saved (universalism) when one understands that God has freed the human will to respond. How do we know? I've demonstrated that above with the exhortations:
  • turn to God;
  • repent, and
  • believe.
None of these exhortations would have meaning if they meant,
  • turn to God and by that God means, I decree you to turn to God and you are forced to make that decision.
  • repent, but God predestines that repentance and it is irresistible;
  • believe, and you have no choice in the matter. You are unconditionally drawn to Christ.
What kind of God would force people to turn to Him, force them to repent, and force them to believe?

Oz
The contradiction is still there. Those enemies Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies, which is not true for all, since some who are enemies are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36.
 

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