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No conditions to be reconciled !

Cygnus

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Scripture says otherwise. God would not say "come" unless we were expected to choose to come:
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. (Isa 55:1-3).

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
(Rev 22:17).

Only Jesus sheep will come. Only Jesus' sheep hear His voice.

I've asked this questonseveral times...why would one not come and the other come? Upon WHAT do they make that decision?
 
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beloved57

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I posted this on the other thread about the blood of Christ.

John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

As I stated in the other post, there are those people who do not want the light. We all have sinned and fall short of the glory Romans 3:23

Jesus died for the world, in the sense that God is gathering a harvest of those who want the light.
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one.
Those Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies Rom 5:10. That's not true of all enemies without exception.
 

OzSpen

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Edited to add:
The short answer is that they never were capable of having faith.
Kinda like how some never understand the theological principles you promote. You can show them all kinds of absolute facts and proofs but they never are persuaded to change. In the same fashion, some will never believe the Gospel.

Why were they never capable of having faith?
 

OzSpen

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Your so-called free-will is a contradiction of the bible.
Are you saved because you are smarter than the other?
Ar you saved because you wee born here or there?
Are you saved because you heard so and so preach?

....You're free-will confirms the above. Your free-will tells us we select Jesus based upon life's happenstance. In other words the cards you are dealt in life are used to make your decision for or not for Christ. That is not biblical.

That's a straw man fallacy of what I believe.
 

JohnDB

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Why were they never capable of having faith?
Because of a myriad of reasons... Not hearing the Gospel, cultural ideals and norms, mental illness and the list is almost endless...
The root of it all is sin.
 
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beloved57

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No one has been able to appropriately answer the points made in the op. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, yet that is not the case with all men without exception John 3:18,36.
 

OzSpen

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Because of a myriad of reasons... Not hearing the Gospel, cultural ideals and norms, mental illness and the list is almost endless...
The root of it all is sin.

I notice you didn't include that they were not unconditionally elected nor that they did not receive irresistible grace. Are they not on your radar?
 

OzSpen

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No one has been able to appropriately answer the points made in the op. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, yet that is not the case with all men without exception John 3:18,36.

That's because you engage in a begging the question logical fallacy. In this instance, you begin with this premise:

Not all men are reconciled to God by Christ's death while being enemies, and thats (sic) simply because Christ's death was not for everyone without exception. Thats (sic) why some are reconciled to God while being enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10 and why some are under Gods wrath and condemnation while being enemies and unbelievers Jn 3:18,36 !

There is simply only one explanation for this, Christ died for some who are enemies and unbelievers and did not die for others who are enemies and unbelievers !

What's your conclusion? 'No one has been able to appropriately answer the points made in the op.' So you conclude where you began with Calvinism's answer, which is your premise, thus demonstrating you use a begging the question logical fallacy. This is also called circular reasoning.

You will never ever receive an answer to the questions of the OP because your premise is embedded in your conclusion. Nobody will be able to convince you that your premise is wrong when you don't seem to be open to such a challenge. You refuse to conclude with anything other than a Calvinistic conclusion - limited atonement - which was your premise.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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People seem to forget...God owes no person salvation.

That's not what I read in the Scripture: 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance' (2 Peter 3:9 NIV).

From God's Word we know that God wants all to come to him and none to perish. On that basis, God is making salvation available to all. Why would He make salvation available to all if 'God owes no person salvation'?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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The contradiction is still there. Those enemies Christ died for are reconciled to God by His Death while they are enemies, which is not true for all, since some who are enemies are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18, 36.

I can be the super, computer geek fixer for all the IT problems of the world - through my international agencies in every country - but not one person with a PC or laptop or Ipad breakdown will receive any help from the super geek fixers until they pick up the phone, go to the Internet, or email with details of the issue.

This analogy demonstrates the truth of 1 John 2:2 (ESV), 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'. Jesus has propitiated the wrath of God for the sins of the whole world, but not one person will receive the benefits of that propitiation until he or she bows the knee in submission to Jesus Christ and accepts his offer by faith and repentance.

There is no contradiction. The issue is with your failure to see that God has ordained it that human beings must 'pick up the phone' and accept Jesus' propitiation for their sins. Your problem is with the human side of accepting God's forgiveness and responding in faith to the offer of salvation.

That's because of your fixation on limited atonement and not taking into consideration what 1 John 2:2 (ESV) teaches in relation to propitiation for the sins of the whole world and that requires human response for redemption to happen. [edited]

Oz
 
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JohnDB

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I notice you didn't include that they were not unconditionally elected nor that they did not receive irresistible grace. Are they not on your radar?
Those terms may be on my "radar" but just not in the manner you might think.
I do not subscribe to them. (oh if only I could)
I am going to try to keep this as simple as possible. (best that I can)

And I want you to keep the story of Jonah and Sampson firmly in your mind.

I have "hinted" at such subjects before...now it is time.
When God created the Heavens and the Earth...AKA the whole universe...
It is a self continuing and sustaining system...meaning that if God did nothing to intervene it would continue.
That would include our population of people...capable of adapting to their environments. We are gregarious by nature...meaning we need the inputs of our society to live much more comfortably.

Now as we go through a society...our role and function in that society is both nature and nurture...(not so much one or the other but both in harmony)
Certain people have a genetic predisposition to be kind and loving and moral where others have more base, carnal and animistic(good luck or talisman) pursuits.

People fall all over the scale. There are always those that achieve scholastically and those that can't figure out which end of a screwdriver to hold.

When it comes to religion...depending upon the society it is introduced in (Jonah story) it can be wholesale rejected or accepted. And then not exactly by all. There will always be a few. And it can actually be predicted along a Calculus formula line.
(it is a rather complex formula with lots of inputs affecting the outcome...but it is predictable)
it simply is a complex game of numbers involving personalities and genetics.
(Some of the genetics can be self induced or influenced)

Some may find the religion of the "Holy Hamster" (who tells us all how to live and be happy if we will only adhere to his words) to be offensive...but then there are those who will believe if a population group is large enough. Of course the demographics of the adherents will likely include a large portion of the mentally ill segment of the population.
So...when it comes time for the Gospel message that we believe in...we find a huge cross section of the population...but only in particular sub-sets. (of which the numbers are not really changing...only shifting locations)

But that isn't to say that there are not times that God directly puts his finger into this pot and stirs things up a bit.
Case in point is Sampson...He had some definite heart issues.
God never changed his heart...Sampson always had free will...and sometimes was rather stubborn about it. (some of us really are super stubborn...I included)
There is the whole focus of the Old Testament which is Jesus...yeah that is a definite stirring of the pot.
In fact the Bible is a "stirring of the pot"...it is a perfect book. Something that we cannot create. We cant get JRRTolkein to not contradict himself much less 60+ authors over a span of over 1500 years to agree perfectly...So God is stirring the pot.
We have lots of instances throughout the Bible and history where it is obvious...except to those self-conditioned not to see it...as also demonstrated in the Gospel account and predicted in Isaiah.
***************************************
Edited to add:
Of course this also means that there are those who try to hijack the religion and those who " warp" it to fit their own desires...but then again there is a subset who change themselves to fit into the guidelines set by the demands of beliefs they subscribe to.
****************************************

Those very few who are "sent" by God to intervene on God's behalf...be very very careful around them.
No one snowflake feels responsible for an avalanche which destroys a town...
But God has shown that his one snowflake can actually stop one.
 
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Jim Parker

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No one has been able to appropriately answer the points made in the op. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10, yet that is not the case with all men without exception John 3:18,36.
The OP stated :"Not all men are reconciled to God by Christ's death while being enemies, and thats simply because Christ's death was not for everyone without exception."
That is a false thesis as several posters have demonstrated with scripture.
Since that thesis is false, any other points made based on the thesis are also false.
So, there have been several appropriate answers which essentially stated, "That's wrong."

Jhn 3:16 (NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
1Pe 3:18 (RSV) For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous,
Rom 6:10 (NKJV) For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all;
2Co 5:14-15 (NKJV) For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
1Ti 2:5-6a (NKJV) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all,
Heb 7:26-27 (NKJV) For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Heb 9:11-12 (NKJV) But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come,[fn] with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV) The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

iakov the fool
 

Jim Parker

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Why would He make salvation available to all if 'God owes no person salvation'?
I would agree that God OWES no one salvation but that He graciously, and in His infinite Love for mankind, offers it to everyone no matter how vile they may be.

jim
 
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beloved57

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j parker

That is a false thesis as several posters have demonstrated with scripture.

No they havent demonstrated it with scripture. They have quoted scripture and thats about it. After all that, the truth still remains that some sinners are reconciled to God by Christ's death Rom 5:10, and some are not Jn 3:18,36.
 
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beloved57

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I would agree that God OWES no one salvation but that He graciously, and in His infinite Love for mankind, offers it to everyone no matter how vile they may be.

jim
What scripture says that God offers salvation to everyone ?
 

Jim Parker

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No they havent demonstrated it with scripture. They have quoted scripture and thats about it. After all that, the truth still remains that some sinners are reconciled to God by Christ's death Rom 5:10, and some are not Jn 3:18,36.
Ro 5:10 says absolutely nothing about the work of Jesus not being effective for the entirety of mankind.
Jn 3:18;36 does not say that the work of Jesus was not effective for all mankind. It says that if you don't believe then you remain in condemnation. That is what MAN does in accepting or rejecting God's grace, not what God did to save all mankind.
Removed from post - personal remark
 
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Jim Parker

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The issue is with your failure to see that God has ordained it that human beings must 'pick up the phone' and accept Jesus' propitiation for their sins. Your problem is with the human side of accepting God's forgiveness and responding in faith to the offer of salvation.
You nailed it.
"It would be extremely difficult for us to devise a doctrine which would be more out of harmony with plain Biblical teaching than the doctrine of Limited Atonement. The doctrine of Limited Atonement stands in direct opposition to the death of Jesus for all (John 12:32) and the Father's desire for all to be saved." (1 Tim. 2:4)"
Gene Taylor "Calvinism IV: Limited Atonement"
http://www.centervilleroad.com/articles/calvinism-4.html

lns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

Synod of Jerusalem (1672)
DECREE III.

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He hath chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He hath rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that were contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; {1 Timothy 2:4} but since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call prevenient grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace; which, co-operating with us, and enabling us, and making us perseverant in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His prevenient grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan, the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.

But to say, as the most wicked heretics do and as is contained in the Chapter answering hereto — that God, in predestinating, or condemning, had in no wise regard to the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious. For thus Scripture would be opposed to itself, since it promises the believer salvation through works, yet supposes God to be its sole author, by His sole illuminating grace, which He bestows without preceding works, to show to man the truth of divine things, and to teach him how he may co-operate therewith, if he will, and do what is good and acceptable, and so obtain salvation. He takes not away the power to will — to will to obey, or not obey him.

But than to affirm that the Divine Will is thus solely and without cause the author of their condemnation, what greater calumny can be fixed upon God? And what greater injury and blasphemy can be offered to the Most High? For that the Deity is not tempted with evils, {cf. James 1:13} and that He equally wills the salvation of all, since there is no respect of persons with Him, we do know; and that for those who through their own wicked choice, and their impenitent heart, have become vessels of dishonor, there is, as is just, decreed condemnation, we do confess. But of eternal punishment, of cruelty, of pitilessness, and of inhumanity, we never, never say God is the author, who tells us that there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. {Luke 15:7} Far be it from us, while we have our senses, thus to believe, or to think; and we do subject to an eternal anathema those who say and think such things, and esteem them to be worse than any infidels.



jim
 
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Jim Parker

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What scripture says that God offers salvation to everyone ?
The ones I posted to you in msg # 72
Here they are again:
Jhn 3:16 (NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
1Pe 3:18 (RSV) For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous,
Rom 6:10 (NKJV) For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all;
2Co 5:14-15 (NKJV) For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
1Ti 2:5-6a (NKJV) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all,
Heb 7:26-27 (NKJV) For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Heb 9:11-12 (NKJV) But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV) The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
 
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beloved57

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Ro 5:10 says absolutely nothing about the work of Jesus not being effective for the entirety of mankind.
Jn 3:18;36 does not say that the work of Jesus was not effective for all mankind. It says that if you don't believe then you remain in condemnation. That is what MAN does in accepting or rejecting God's grace, not what God did to save all mankind.
Perhaps you simply do not want to know what is clearly stated in the scripture or to see the obvious.
Whatever. :shrug
Rom 5:10 says that some were reconciled to God while being enemies, by the death of Christ. However that doesn't apply to all mankind.
 
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beloved57

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The ones I posted to you in msg # 72
Here they are again:
Jhn 3:16 (NKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
1Pe 3:18 (RSV) For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous,
Rom 6:10 (NKJV) For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all;
2Co 5:14-15 (NKJV) For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
1Ti 2:5-6a (NKJV) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all,
Heb 7:26-27 (NKJV) For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Heb 9:11-12 (NKJV) But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV) The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Not one of those scriptures says that God offers salvation to all mankind.
 
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