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[_ Old Earth _] No creation can ever be superior to its creator

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Heidi

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No creation can ever be superior to its creator. This is an elementary principle. A cell cannot spontaneously produce new characteristics that were not already present in the original cell. But characteristics already present in a cell can become damaged and when that cell combines with another cell, it will produce damaged characteristics. That's called mutation.

To say that the egg or sperm of an ape can produce cognition, speech, analytical qualities, the ability to conceptualize, & form spiritual concepts is not only bizarre but embarrassing as well. Humans have built bridges, sent other humans to the moon, have the ability to read, write, & think on an advanced level whereas apes are still in the jungle as they have always been or placed in zoos where they can be observed by humans.

This elaborate theory, formulated by people specifially because they see the value of the human being as nothing more than an accident, came about because apes are somewhat bipedal, period. Someone said; "Hey apes look more like human beings than other animals, so they must be our ancestors!" So then people got together and tried to figure out how this could be true. It's as hypothetical as "Lord Of The Rings". If one accepts the premise of "Lord of The Rings" then the whole story can make sense. But nothing in reality backs up the theory of evolution or "Lord Of The Rings."
 
A cell cannot spontaneously produce new characteristics that were not already present in the original cell. But characteristics already present in a cell can become damaged and when that cell combines with another cell, it will produce damaged characteristics. That's called mutation.

Actually, the "damage" sometimes makes the cell more fit. A frameshift mutation in some bacteria made it possible for them to digest nylon. They promptly took over waste ponds at nylon factories.

To say that the egg or sperm of an ape can produce cognition, speech, analytical qualities, the ability to conceptualize, & form spiritual concepts is not only bizarre but embarrassing as well.

Apes can do many of these things. Would you like to learn about some of it?

This elaborate theory, formulated by people specifially because they see the value of the human being as nothing more than an accident, came about because apes are somewhat bipedal, period.

You've been misled about that. Would you like to see why scientists know apes and humans have a very recent common ancestor?

Someone said; "Hey apes look more like human beings than other animals, so they must be our ancestors!"

Nope, although the creationist Carol Linnaeus (inventer of the binomial system for naming organisms) admitted that he could find no reason to put humans and apes in separate genera, and that he probably should have done it, if he wasn't afraid of what the church would do.
 
Heidi said:
No creation can ever be superior to its creator. This is an elementary principle. ."

Then why do you think you can throw out the rule when it come to a God existing. You know and everyone reading this knows that everything has a beginning even God. Using the "catch all" phrase "God always was" conveniently covers up the problem but the reality is that the problem is still there.
 
The Barbarian said:
A cell cannot spontaneously produce new characteristics that were not already present in the original cell. But characteristics already present in a cell can become damaged and when that cell combines with another cell, it will produce damaged characteristics. That's called mutation.

Actually, the "damage" sometimes makes the cell more fit. A frameshift mutation in some bacteria made it possible for them to digest nylon. They promptly took over waste ponds at nylon factories.

[quote:1d835]To say that the egg or sperm of an ape can produce cognition, speech, analytical qualities, the ability to conceptualize, & form spiritual concepts is not only bizarre but embarrassing as well.

Apes can do many of these things. Would you like to learn about some of it?

This elaborate theory, formulated by people specifially because they see the value of the human being as nothing more than an accident, came about because apes are somewhat bipedal, period.

You've been misled about that. Would you like to see why scientists know apes and humans have a very recent common ancestor?

Someone said; "Hey apes look more like human beings than other animals, so they must be our ancestors!"

Nope, although the creationist Carol Linnaeus (inventer of the binomial system for naming organisms) admitted that he could find no reason to put humans and apes in separate genera, and that he probably should have done it, if he wasn't afraid of what the church would do.[/quote:1d835]

Then why are apes still in zoos and not running around in society like the rest of us? Why are they not elected to boards and in our government? (although some people might think there are apes in the government). Again, even children can see the outward and inward differences between apes & human beings, but scientists cannot.

Sorry, but the church would not stop anyone from breeding a human with an ape if that would prove the evolution theory! The church hasn't stopped the evolutionists from claiming we came from apes, it hasn't stopped the marriages of homosexuals or legalizing abortion. This is simply another bogus excuse to avoid showing the world that apes cannot produce human beings. Most rational people know that it can't be done, but not scientists who try to fool the world. Sorry, but the only ones who are fooled are scientists themselves. ;-)
 
Heidi said:
Sorry, but the church would not stop anyone from breeding a human with an ape if that would prove the evolution theory!
Every church I know of would certainly vocally protest such an action, but since the action is not proof of evolution, and probably isn't possible, I don't see why scientists would want to.
The church hasn't stopped the evolutionists from claiming we came from apes
The church hasn't stopped evolutionists from claiming we come from the planet Pluto. But they don't claim that, nor do they claim we came from apes.

it hasn't stopped the marriages of homosexuals or legalizing abortion.
It has certainly tried it's hardest.

This is simply another bogus excuse to avoid showing the world that apes cannot produce human beings.
Every single evolutionist believes that apes cannot produce human beings. This has been explained to you literally dozens of times. Can you either gett he facts straight about what the people you attack believe, or else stop with the attacks?

Most rational people know that it can't be done, but not scientists who try to fool the world. Sorry, but the only ones who are fooled are scientists themselves. ;-)
I think you've fooled yourself quite convincely into believing scientists are idiots. Fortunately, everything you claim scientists believe, they don't really believe.
 
I was reading about these bony fish. It involved a single mutation. If the had bones they were slower but armored (and better fit for the ocean). If not, they were faster and better fit for lakes and rivers.

So in cases where a bony parents had less bony offspring in a lake, they were better suited than their parents were.

Quath
 
reznwerks said:
Heidi said:
No creation can ever be superior to its creator. This is an elementary principle. ."

Then why do you think you can throw out the rule when it come to a God existing. You know and everyone reading this knows that everything has a beginning even God. Using the "catch all" phrase "God always was" conveniently covers up the problem but the reality is that the problem is still there.

No creation can ever be greater than its creator. God's eternal existence is completely in keeping with that statement. Nothing is greater than God because he is our creator. The universe started somewhere because it exists. We call the initiator of it God. :)
 
Even scientists ackowledge infinity which is how they talk about the universe. Everything seen is finite because it has a beginning and an end. But infinity is eternal and the beginning and the end cannot be seen. The unseen is far more vast than the seen. Far more vast. That's why man is and always will be, searching.
 
Heidi said:
No creation can ever be superior to its creator. This is an elementary principle. A cell cannot spontaneously produce new characteristics that were not already present in the original cell. But characteristics already present in a cell can become damaged and when that cell combines with another cell, it will produce damaged characteristics. That's called mutation.

To say that the egg or sperm of an ape can produce cognition, speech, analytical qualities, the ability to conceptualize, & form spiritual concepts is not only bizarre but embarrassing as well. Humans have built bridges, sent other humans to the moon, have the ability to read, write, & think on an advanced level whereas apes are still in the jungle as they have always been or placed in zoos where they can be observed by humans.

This elaborate theory, formulated by people specifially because they see the value of the human being as nothing more than an accident, came about because apes are somewhat bipedal, period. Someone said; "Hey apes look more like human beings than other animals, so they must be our ancestors!" So then people got together and tried to figure out how this could be true. It's as hypothetical as "Lord Of The Rings". If one accepts the premise of "Lord of The Rings" then the whole story can make sense. But nothing in reality backs up the theory of evolution or "Lord Of The Rings."

Hi Heidi:

Your post is SO full of sense which at the same time exposes the utter senselessness of Darwinism.

But naturalists NEED a creation story to account for life - hence the lengths persons will go to hate the Creator.

I might add that the evo "explanation" getting around the obvious inability for a "beneficial" mutation to hocus pocus a male and a female in the same time and place to propagate a new species belongs in Star Trek.

But because they need an explanation lest Genesis is perceived correct they put forth utter nonsense to get around this refutation proof fact of male and female.

Ray Martinez
 
Rezenwerks said:
Then why do you think you can throw out the rule when it come to a God existing. You know and everyone reading this knows that everything has a beginning even God. Using the "catch all" phrase "God always was" conveniently covers up the problem but the reality is that the problem is still there.

What is your source for these beliefs about God ?

The First Book of Rezenwerks ?

I predict you will either go non-sequitur, take a Bible verse horribly out of context, or admit subjectivity.

If subjective then your Darwinism/atheism refutes all your straw men about God.

Ray Martinez
 
Then why are apes still in zoos and not running around in society like the rest of us?

They aren't as smart as we are.

Why are they not elected to boards and in our government?

I have some bad news for you.... :sad Oh wait, you already knew that. Seriously, I'm sure apes would be offended to be compared to many people in Congress and the WH.

You seem to think that evolutionary theory says we came from apes. Where did you get that idea?

In the strict cladist sense, we are apes, but we did not evolve from apes you're thinking about. They are too specialized in their own way to have given rise to humans.
 
Oh, so now evolutionists are changing their minds? All evolutionists to whom I've talked said our ancestors are apes. So what is your theory? What animal do you think we came from? :o
 
Oh, so now evolutionists are changing their minds?

Nope. It's always been that way.

All evolutionists to whom I've talked said our ancestors are apes.

Sounds like someone's been having a little fun with you.

So what is your theory? What animal do you think we came from?

The evidence shows we evolved from other species of hominins.
 
Hominims? It sounds like a sci-fi movie. Now it is you who are trying to have a little fun with me. Scientists find rocks and splinters in the desert they can't explain and develop an elaborate story about them that of course, everyone buys. I have seen "documentaries" on these made-up creatures & how do scientists know they had hair all over their bodies? Just a guess? Where are the hair fibers to prove this? Where are these hominims today?

And why have today's apes not shed their hair or developed into human species today? Why haven't dogs dropped their hair and developed into new species? Why do humans breed babies with defects? How are those defective babies fitter than any other huamn whoever lived? How are any of us fitter? We certainly don't have the capacity to fend for ourselves in the desert without cell phones, nor can most of us chop down trees without dropping dead from a heart attack. Why haven't we produced a species that are as different from us as we are from apes or "hominims"?

Once again, a man looked at an ape and saw he looked more like a human than other animals so he concluded that we must have come from him in some fashion. So man invented species that have conveniently never been seen, only drawn, and said we came from them! The truth can only be found in reality, my friend, not the imagination.

In addition, the bible said there were giants who once roamed the earth just like Andre the Giant. So how do scientists know the bones they find are not those of this tribe?
 
Heidi said:
reznwerks said:
Heidi said:
No creation can ever be superior to its creator. This is an elementary principle. ."

Then why do you think you can throw out the rule when it come to a God existing. You know and everyone reading this knows that everything has a beginning even God. Using the "catch all" phrase "God always was" conveniently covers up the problem but the reality is that the problem is still there.

No creation can ever be greater than its creator. God's eternal existence is completely in keeping with that statement. Nothing is greater than God because he is our creator. The universe started somewhere because it exists. We call the initiator of it God. :)
No creation can ever be greater than its creator. Either its true or it is not. We have no evidence of God nor any evidence that the statement is false as you have claimed by saying that God always was which makes the statement false.
 
The evidence that there is a God is inherent in every natural creation, especially in the human being...unless of course you don't value yourself as anything more than an accident or mutation. Even one cell whose design is so miraculous that scientists are still trying to figure out how it works. And the very fact that they are looking for an order to it shows they know there's a design or they wouldn't be looking for one! The beauty of one flower who miraculously grows with only food and water into a thing of majesty that can't be duplicated by any human being shows the presence of God.

Romans 1:18, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godless and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

The evidence of God is all around us. But those who have contempt for his creation try to reduce it into a petrie dish which only bring about more unanswered questions than solutions. God & life are much bigger than we are which is why bacterial cells will eventually become resistant to any medicines and new "solutions" bring on bigger problems.

It is man's arrogance thinking he can solve his own problems which si why we are closer to annihilating ourselves than we ever have been. There is still disease, STD's are reaching pandemic porportions, we have weapons that can wipe out more people in less time than ever before, more children who commit murder than ever before, too many people on the planet which necessitates arbitrary baby-killing through abortion, people living longer through "medical technology" which increases health care costs to insurmountable prices, & produces euthanasia.

Sorry, but men, left to themselves, make a mess of things to the point of self-destruction. But you can continue to believe that man knows better than God. God has warned us repeatedly what will happen if we do things our way, but most don't listen to Him. So he says, "Okay have it your way. Since you don't listen to me, you'll have to find out the hard way that you did not creae the universe and only I know how things should work."

As God tells us in Romans 1:21-

"For although the knew God, they neither gloridied him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore, God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurities resulting in the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and receieved in themselves due penalty for their perversion.
Further more, since they did not think it worhtwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gosspis, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; the invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents, they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

That sure sounds like today's society! God-haters and arrogant men who claim to be wise. Well, I got news for you, there is a Creator who determines the weather and our fate. Unfortunately, some people are so arrogant, have to wait until they die to find out just who their Creator is.

Pride & arrogance is what keeps men from seeing the existence of God around them every single day. ;-)
 
Heidi said:
And why have today's apes not shed their hair or developed into human species today?
heir enviornment doesn't push evolution in that direction.

Why haven't dogs dropped their hair and developed into new species?
If they could gain something by it, evolution would nudge them in that direction as well.

Why do humans breed babies with defects? How are those defective babies fitter than any other huamn whoever lived? How are any of us fitter?
A defect is always bad by definition. However, if you look at human babies, some are born better than others.

We certainly don't have the capacity to fend for ourselves in the desert without cell phones, nor can most of us chop down trees without dropping dead from a heart attack. Why haven't we produced a species that are as different from us as we are from apes or "hominims"?
Human change stuff on the order of hundrfeds of years. Evolution works in the timeframe of tens of thousands of years. We are at a point where we can modify things fater than evolution can. So if we played evolution, we would need for survival or mating to be based on fit genes. As it is, our technology circumvents that.

In addition, the bible said there were giants who once roamed the earth just like Andre the Giant. So how do scientists know the bones they find are not those of this tribe?
Humans grew taller as they evolved from their chimp-like ancestor, so giants were not part of this.

Quath
 
But evolutuonsists maintain that evolution is based on survival of the fittest. So again, why haven't human beings bred a species as different from humans as humans are from the primates they supposedly came from? Some apes and some dogs are better than other apes & dogs, but that hasn't changed their species.

Your responses haven't altered the fact that there is no reality to back up evolution, Quath. It's still just a "what if". That's like me saying that humans will turn into goats someday because I say so. It's tantamount to saying that there is no proof but there might be someday.

Again, evolution is, always has been, and always will be, a theory. And the theory came about only to say there is no God. If all people believed that God created humans in his image and animals separately, there would be no theory of evolution. But as usual, man thinks he knows better than God so he tries to decide how we all got here. The only problem is the fallibility of man always shows up when he disagrees with God. The evolution theory brings up more questions than answers because the "answers" cannot be found in reality, only in the imagination. What can be found in reality and always has been in reality is that each animal reproduces his own kind. There is no superhuman race and there are no apes or primates that breed human beings. And that is what's real.
 
But evolutuonsists maintain that evolution is based on survival of the fittest. So again, why haven't human beings bred a species as different from humans as humans are from the primates they supposedly came from? Some apes and some dogs are better than other apes & dogs, but that hasn't changed their species.

That's like me giving you one acorn and asking your to grow a thousand oak trees in a week. It doesn't mean you can't, it just means you can't do it right away.

You are ignoring the time factor. We have only been domesticating animals and plants for a little over 10,000 years.

Humans evolved over millions of years. We have been studying evolution for about 200. What you ask isn't reasonable, nor is it a claim of evolution.

It's still just a "what if". That's like me saying that humans will turn into goats someday because I say so. It's tantamount to saying that there is no proof but there might be someday.

Evolution, and I daresay any scientists, have anything to say about how things WILL evolve. Rather, they only look backwards to explain how things HAVE evolved. A major difference.

That is why domestication is such a messy business, with many failed attempts and it takes a great number of generations to even make a dent.

Again, evolution is, always has been, and always will be, a theory.

Bravo. You are correct. Of course you realize that "theory" is not a bad word, right?

And the theory came about only to say there is no God.

Opinion

If all people believed that God created humans in his image and animals separately, there would be no theory of evolution.

Tell that to all the Christians on this forum who accept the theory.

But as usual, man thinks he knows better than God so he tries to decide how we all got here.

Not decide, but determine.

The only problem is the fallibility of man always shows up when he disagrees with God.

Then you are fallible as well.

The evolution theory brings up more questions than answers because the "answers" cannot be found in reality, only in the imagination.

There are mountains of real evidence. I could link thousands of pages if you choose to read them and could comprehend the science, math and reason behind them.

What can be found in reality and always has been in reality is that each animal reproduces his own kind.

There are many instances of new species being created over the course of multiple generations. You choose to ignore them because the are plants and little bugs. Not too "sexy", as they say.

Large mammals reproduce much too slow for us to readily witness speciation, particularly since we have only been looking for it for a few hundred years. As I said with the acorns, you need many generations and time. Plants and bugs are quick, chimpanzees and humans are slow.

But apparently you want new mammal species as proof. Unless you are Methusaleh, you ain't getting it.

There is no superhuman race and there are no apes or primates that breed human beings.

Not sure where you got superhuman.

I have an excellent example of primates breeding humans. My parents are primates. They had me, also a primate and a human being.
 
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