Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Not an adolescent Paul (Rom 7:9)

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00

veryberry

Member
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

This verse is most commonly taught as an adolescent and used to prove that young children are safe and will not be tossed into the lake of fire. Though I do agree that children who have not come o the knowledge of good and evil are safe, this verse is in no way talking about Paul as a child. This verse is a saved Paul trying to utilize the law to live out his sanctified life.

There is one word within this verse that sets this and that is "revived". In order for something to be revived, it had to be alive and then it had to die. In this context, that is sin. When a person is saved, he/she is made dead to sin and dead to the law.

Romans 7:8 - But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

It is when the law is used when sin is revived. To get this passage wrong set the stage for the entire chapter to be wrong, like saying a "battle between 2 natures" which is wrong.
 
Dear Brother veryberry, thanks for your post. To me I have always thought that that which Paul retested in was law keeping, and when presented with its reality he found he was not living up to God’s standards. Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God. It did its job as the ministration of death. 2 Cor 3:7

That same law that was condemning Paul was also called the law the ministration of condemnation in 2 Cor 3:9, but after realizing what was accusing, and slaying him, Paul said in Rom 8:1, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (It comes from the law), thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I had never heard Romans Chapter Seven being used to “prove that young children are safe and will not be tossed into the lake of fire.” Can you tell me what church or person that says that?

I also wonder at your justification of saying there is nothing of the two natures (flesh and Spirit – old and new man) shown in Romans Chapter Seven.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation (manner of life) the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
 
I also wonder at your justification of saying there is nothing of the two natures (flesh and Spirit – old and new man) shown in Romans Chapter Seven.

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Because there is nothing of two natures in Romans 7. I use to believe that there was. But here is what did not make sense...

Rom 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Here it is written that we are not under the law.

Rom 7:4 - Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God

Here it is written that we are dead to the law.

In Rom 7: 7-25, what is Paul doing? He is trying to live his sanctified life by following the law. The law that he also is not under and dead to. In these verses, Paul is not talking of two natures. Paul is pretty much saying that he tried to use the law to live unto God, and here is what happened. Paul is being an ensample to us. This is not a old Paul vs new Paul. This is just a saved Paul trying to use the law and not being able to do it so that we know that the exact same thing will happen to us.

In order to use the law to live unto God, would consist on us using the power of our flesh, but in our flesh dwelleth no good thing. There is no power in our flesh. The law is weak through the flesh.

17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Is this verse saying, It is not the new Paul sinning, but the old Paul? No

Rom 7:13c - ...that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

How do we generally read this? that sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. But it does not say exceedingly. What it is saying is, that despite all of Pauls best efforts, his will, his intentions, sin will always exceed his ability. Sins will is more powerful then his will. So in verse 17, Paul wants to follow the law, but sin is exceeding his ability to do so, for in his flesh dwelleth no good thing.

Rom 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

To live unto God by the law is to be walking after the flesh and you are condemning your functional Christian life and you are producing nothing but fruit unto death.

Rom 7: 7-25 is a prime example of "walking after the flesh" and being "carnally minded".
 
veryberry
What would you say is the root of the problem with someone not following the law, and experiencing a battle with the flesh?

As far as Rom 8:1, it should read as “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.” That’s the result of believing on Christ Jesus. Our practical walk is governed by following after the Spirit instead of the flesh as we’re told in Rom 8:4 where it’s correctly applied as God’s work in us; not by us. I still don’t see the exclusion of the battle of the flesh and spirit in every believer.

Thanks again.
 
veryberry
What would you say is the root of the problem with someone not following the law, and experiencing a battle with the flesh? Thanks again.

imo, the answer to this question is that their mind has not yet been completely renewed (reprogramed), by the Word of God.
It takes time to undo the damage of old thoughts, old thought patterns that have become habit. But as the Holy Spirit works in us these things fall away.
From the time we are born we are storing thoughts from everything we hear, see, and feel. Some are good, some are not.

It is so clear to me that children raised in Christian homes do better than children who are not. Why is that? It is because in their home that they identify with they see, hear, and feel appropriate behaviors. That is what the brain is absorbing and that is what becomes their habits and thought patterns. So that when they become old enough to be accountable to God they have so much less garbage to overcome.

To me the 'old man' has been crucified in Christ. The 'old man' did not know his Lord and Savior.
The 'new man' knows his Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit dwells in him.

Rom 6:5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;
Rom 6:6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.

If it's the 'old man' who is tempting or tempted, I see a problem.
Jesus was tempted just like we are and He Never had an 'old man'.
YLT
Heb 2:17 wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,
Heb 2:18 for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

It is our 'new man' who is being tempted, this 'new man' in Christ is tempted just the same way Jesus was tempted but HE never responded to those temptations in a negative way. He could not sin, He was perfectly mature spiritually in His Father. Literally God come in the flesh.

To me the 'old man' (with the sin nature) is not the flesh that Paul speaks of. He uses the word flesh in several different ways. Romans 7, in speaking to the Jews, he is speaking of the fleshy sacrifices of the Law of Moses that can never change the heart of man compared to the perfect sacrifice of the Messiah which changes man from the inside out.
The old dead husband is the Law of Moses, the old covenant. The new husband is the Law of Christ. Because the old husband is dead the wife is no longer in bondage to the Law of Moses but is free to be married to the Law of Christ as His bride.
 
Back
Top