Not Replacement theology but......

[Martin Luther]

All men now come to God through the new covenant. People tag this as Replacement theology but the the bible teaches that all men come to god through Jesus, period. This includes Israelites too. Any one else here agree with this?

 

[Knotical]

To clarify, the new covenant was made with Jesus for us, so in essence, both statements are correct. Just one is more correct than the other one.

 

[Martin Luther]

Yes, all has been given to Christ. I have wondered when Christ was preaching to the dead if those in Hell were included.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Any one else here agree with this?

Yep. The term, "replacement theology" is just an insulting way of describing the original covenant theology of the early church.

 

[JLB]

Yes, all has been given to Christ. I have wondered when Christ was preaching to the dead if those in Hell were included.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:1-4

The Lord Jesus, made covenant with Abraham.

The Lord had to "become flesh" to ratify His covenant with Abraham.

The Law was added to this covenant UNTIL Christ was manifested in the flesh.

The old testament saints were preserved in "paradise", in the heart of the earth until Christ came down and led them out.

In that regard, Abraham was the first member of the Church.

That is why Paradise was named after him, Abraham's Bosom.

We are "grafted" into the covenant that Abraham, David, Moses, Elijah, Daniel... were in with the Lord, However The "New" Covenant has provisions like a new nature, cleansing of sin, being filled with the Holy Spirit, The Gifts of The spirit, we are priests to name a few.

It is by His Blood that we have these things available to us.

He had to become flesh to have blood to shed.

The covenant we are "in" with Christ today has some fresh, new, unused things the covenant with Abraham didn't have, because it wasn't ratified by His Blood yet.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

All men now come to God through the new covenant. People tag this as Replacement theology but the the bible teaches that all men come to god through Jesus, period. This includes Israelites too. Any one else here agree with this?

There is too much wiggle room to say yes or no. What are you getting at?

 

[Eugene]

All men now come to God through the new covenant. People tag this as Replacement theology but the the bible teaches that all men come to God through Jesus, period. This includes Israelites too. Any one else here agree with this?

I agree with it in the following context.

The offerings and the coverings below represent the sacrifice of Christ. Hebrews 9:22 ". . without shedding of blood is no remission."

Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

Genesis 4:4 "And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:"

John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

 

[John 8:32]

To clarify, the new covenant was made with Jesus for us, so in essence, both statements are correct. Just one is more correct than the other one.

You sure?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Looks like it is made with Israel and Judah to me.

 

[Knotical]

You sure?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Looks like it is made with Israel and Judah to me.

Who was the only person (being) able to fulfill the requirements of the old covenant (works)?

 

[JLB]

You sure?

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Looks like it is made with Israel and Judah to me.

Looks like it is made with Israel and Judah to me.

The house of Israel and Judah are The "sons of Abraham".

The Abrahamic Covenant has always included Gentiles.

"As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:4



The Law was "added" to the "Abrahamic Covenant" until...

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made... Galatians 3:19

By saying added, The Holy Spirit is indicating it was part of something greater.

By saying till, The Holy Spirit is indicating it was temporary.


The New Covenant included Gentiles, as Isaiah says -

1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:1-6


JLB

 

[John 8:32]

The house of Israel and Judah are The "sons of Abraham".

The Abrahamic Covenant has always included Gentiles.

"As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:4



The Law was "added" to the "Abrahamic Covenant" until...

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made... Galatians 3:19

By saying added, The Holy Spirit is indicating it was part of something greater.

By saying till, The Holy Spirit is indicating it was temporary.


The New Covenant included Gentiles, as Isaiah says -

1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles. Isaiah 42:1-6


JLB

The New Covenant is not made with the sons of Abraham, it is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Your reference to Isa 42 is taking some liberties...

Isa 42:1 Behold My Servant [Messiah], Whom I uphold; Mine elect, in Whom I Myself am well pleased; I have bestowed My Spirit upon Him: He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not make outcry, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall He not break, and the wick made of flax, that is burning dim shall He trim it and make it burn brightly: He shall bring forth judgment in accordance with truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not go out as a lamp nor break down, till He have set judgment upon the earth: and the maritime countries [the Gentiles] shall wait for His law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, He That created the heavens, They that stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He That giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will keep Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

There is not one word here about the Covenant being made with the gentiles, what is said is that Christ will bring forth judgment to the Gentiles (verse 1). He will extend His law to the Gentiles (verse 4). He will give a covenant to a particular people who will be for a light to the gentiles. The Covenant is made with Israel and Judah...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, and I abhorred them, declareth the Lord:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My People.

 

[Rev33]

The Lord Jesus, made covenant with Abraham.

The Lord had to "become flesh" to ratify His covenant with Abraham.

JLB

Got any Scripture for this idea that Christ came to "ratify" the covenant of Abraham?

I do!

Dan 9:26-27
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

 

[Deborah13]

The New Covenant is not made with the sons of Abraham, it is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Who are the sons of Abraham if not Israel and Judah?

 

[JLB]

Got any Scripture for this idea that Christ came to "ratify" the covenant of Abraham?

I do!

Dan 9:26-27
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.â€

17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; Galatians 3:17-19


... the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ.

Let's break that down a bit -

The Covenant [with Abraham] that was confirmed before [the law of Moses] by God in Christ.

Let's look at the Covenant -

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Genesis 17:1-8


Now I need to stop and ask you a couple of questions about the above mentioned scripture.

• the Lord appeared to Abram- Do you understand that the Lord here is Jesus Christ before He became flesh.

• And I will make My covenant between Me and you - Do you understand that this is the Covenant that Paul is referring to in Galatians 3:17, that was confirmed in Christ.

If you would answer these two questions so that we may continue.




Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

Who are the sons of Abraham if not Israel and Judah?

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."


... preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,


The Lord made Covenant with a man called Abram and changed his name to Abraham because of it. You are in that Covenant if you believe in Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Who are the sons of Abraham if not Israel and Judah?

We are sons (and daughters) of Abraham based on our faith in Christ resulting in our being declared righteous -- justified. That does not make us parties to the Abrahamic Covenant, however, in the sense of the promise of the land. That was promised only to Abraham's genetic descendants.

 

[John 8:32]

Who are the sons of Abraham if not Israel and Judah?

The direct statement is not with the sons of Abraham, but with Israel and Judah. This would be with 13 tribes and gentiles only as they become Israelites.

 

[JLB]

The New Covenant is not made with the sons of Abraham, it is made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Your reference to Isa 42 is taking some liberties...

Isa 42:1 Behold My Servant [Messiah], Whom I uphold; Mine elect, in Whom I Myself am well pleased; I have bestowed My Spirit upon Him: He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not make outcry, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall He not break, and the wick made of flax, that is burning dim shall He trim it and make it burn brightly: He shall bring forth judgment in accordance with truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not go out as a lamp nor break down, till He have set judgment upon the earth: and the maritime countries [the Gentiles] shall wait for His law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, He That created the heavens, They that stretched them out; He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; He That giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will keep Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

There is not one word here about the Covenant being made with the gentiles, what is said is that Christ will bring forth judgment to the Gentiles (verse 1). He will extend His law to the Gentiles (verse 4). He will give a covenant to a particular people who will be for a light to the gentiles. The Covenant is made with Israel and Judah...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which My covenant they brake, and I abhorred them, declareth the Lord:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My People.

... and give Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

This is a direct reference to Covenant with the Gentiles.

What could possibly be your motive for saying the "New Covenant" doesn't include Gentiles?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

thanks numbers, appreciate the help

 

[farouk]

Paul in 1 Corinthians 10.32 refers to Jews, Gentiles and the church of God as abidingly separate entities.