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Bible Study Omniscience: Lets Do It

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Ray Martinez

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Genesis 22:12

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God says what He means and means what He says, unless of course you have an a priori theological bias to uphold.

The verse above obviously implies that prior God did not know if Abraham feared Him.

Abraham was at least 120 years old in Genesis 22.

120 years old and then God decides that Abraham does indeed fear Him.

God is omniscient but it is delayed until His power can arrange circumstances to find out the one thing He does not know: If man fears Him, which is a synonym for trust and love.

IF we fear God we will do what He says. He wants trust and when we trust God we are loving God - the only way to love an invisible Being.

The one thing God does not know is the one thing He cannot create: Trust/faith.

IOW, we know the gospel is the way of faith apart from the works of the law.

Because humans have the ability to change their minds at will God does not know for sure what we will do in the context defined by the verse, that is to fear/trust/love Him or not ?

He is ready to react in either case but He doesn't know for sure until we do what we do because we have the freedom to do otherwise/change our minds at will.

Hebrews tells us what Abraham was thinking as he was about to slay Isaac - that God would raise him from the dead = (proof that Scripture is Divinely controlled in recording what someone was thinking).

God was convinced that Abraham was going to go through with it - He stayed His hand.

Thousands of years later God did not stay His hand with His own Son on the exact same spot (Mt. Moriah).

Now, God wants to know: Do you and I fear/trust/love Him in response to Calvary ?

The choices of faith to trust God as we go along in life answer the question.

We should hope God will conclude one day, like Abraham, that now He knows that we too fear Him.

Ray Martinez
 
God says what He means and means what He says, unless of course you have an a priori theological bias to uphold.

The verse above obviously implies that prior God did not know if Abraham feared Him.

Anthropopatheia is, apparently, "The ascribing of Human Attributes, ect., to God. In this case one might argue that the human action of "knowning" is being ascribed to God, a few other human actions include, not knowning, remembering, thinking, hissing, breathing, laughing, crying out, standing, sitting, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching, walking, riding, meeting, returning, passing through, begetting, washing, hiding, wiping, girding, building, binding up, opering doors, windows, ect, proving and trying, breaking, and many more according to Bullinger - see Figures of speech used in the bible.

Anyway, when I read that passage, the "now I know" sounds to me like an expression that was probably common at the time. The word "know" here seems to me to simply mean that God's just observed it, rather then he just realized it.
 
James 2:18-26

verses 21-23

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" and he was called the Friend of God.


I believe that this entire passage is relevant, but I wanted to emphasize that first of all James was referring here to the specific act of offering Isaac, and secondly that scripture was being fulfilled. That means that God knew already and wanted things to play out for the fulfillment of Scripture. It was really just a matter of Abrahams obedience demonstrating a genuineness of faith...verse 22 says his faith was made perfect...that is what God was doing in his life. God making the statement to Abraham that he now knew that Abraham feared Him was truly for Abraham's fullness, or perfection, of faith.

My son may do something that is overwhelming kind, and sweet, for me. I may say to him, "You did this for me, and I know now that you love me!" It is not because I didn't know it before, but because his act was a tremendous demonstration of love, and I was grateful and happy about his display. His act was love being manifested in his life. Just as Abraham's act was a tremendous display of his faith being manifested in his obedience to God concerning Isaac. Just because God knew that Abraham was going to obey Him, doesn't mean that He was not full of joy at seeing Abraham's fear Him and come to a perfect faith.

I am not a great apologist, or scholar, but this is how I discern this.
Blessings
 
How can you know who is speaking in verse 12 if you leave out verse 11?

11And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

So, we know an angel, not God himself, is speaking. Are angels omniscient? I don't think the Bible ever claims they are. So, now the question becomes, is the angel speaking of his own knowledge or of God's.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Here in verse 12, the angel clearly speaks of God in the third person, so the "I know" can't be from God's perspective, but can only be from the angel's.

This can be confusing, because angels are often used as the mouthpiece of God, so you might think the angel is saying God doesn't know. However, we can see an example in this very passage of when they are being so used for this purpose, which is markedly different than verse 12.

Verses 16-18 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Here, the angel is speaking for God. The angels makes a third person reference to God in the phrase "saith the Lord". Because of this phrase, it is clear that all first person I's and my's are intended to be from God's perspective. This contrasts with verse 12 where he says "I know that thou fearest God" which clearly isn't from God's perspective.

So, this passage proves angels aren't omniscient, a proof which I don't think anyone really needed. It says nothing about the knowledge of God, or what God "cannot" do.
 
Ray Martinez said:
God says what He means and means what He says, unless of course you have an a priori theological bias to uphold.

The verse above obviously implies that prior God did not know if Abraham feared Him.

Yeshua: Anthropopatheia is, apparently, "The ascribing of Human Attributes, ect., to God.

Ray: Non-sequitur.

Your comment has no source or basis because the verse has nothing to do with your invent.

Example:

I said: The book says the rose is red.

You reply: The rose could be white.

IOW, you are asserting contrary to what the text says in order to preserve a previously held theological bias.

IOW, you have no source for your reply unless you just assert contrary to what is said, which is exactly what you have done.

In this case one might argue that the human action of "knowning" is being ascribed to God, a few other human actions include, not knowning, remembering, thinking, hissing, breathing, laughing, crying out, standing, sitting, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching, walking, riding, meeting, returning, passing through, begetting, washing, hiding, wiping, girding, building, binding up, opering doors, windows, ect, proving and trying, breaking, and many more according to Bullinger - see Figures of speech used in the bible.


Lawyer rhetoric attempting to strip meaning from three easy to understand words: "Now I know" means now something is known that was not before.

You evade this face value intent because it goes against the grain of your previous theological bias which has no source.

Anyway, when I read that passage, the "now I know" sounds to me like an expression that was probably common at the time. The word "know" here seems to me to simply mean that God's just observed it, rather then he just realized it.

IOW, God does mean what He says - no matter how clearly it is worded.

This is exactly Satan's tactic to Eve:

Question what God said to imply He did not mean what He said = your argument.

"Now I know" means God did not know until that moment.

What is apparent is that you are inventing technical nonsense contrary to what the text says to protect a Calvinian theological bias which has no source.

God meant what He said: "Now I know....."

His omniscience is delayed until His omnipotence can arrange tests to find out what He does not know for sure.

Ray
 
Ray Martinez said:
God says what He means and means what He says, unless of course you have an a priori theological bias to uphold.

The verse above obviously implies that prior God did not know if Abraham feared Him.

Yeshua: Anthropopatheia is, apparently, "The ascribing of Human Attributes, ect., to God.

Ray: Non-sequitur.

Your comment has no source or basis because the verse has nothing to do with your invent.

Example:

I said: The book says the rose is red.

You reply: The rose could be white.

IOW, you are asserting contrary to what the text says in order to preserve a previously held theological bias.

IOW, you have no source for your reply unless you just assert contrary to what is said, which is exactly what you have done.

In this case one might argue that the human action of "knowning" is being ascribed to God, a few other human actions include, not knowning, remembering, thinking, hissing, breathing, laughing, crying out, standing, sitting, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching, walking, riding, meeting, returning, passing through, begetting, washing, hiding, wiping, girding, building, binding up, opering doors, windows, ect, proving and trying, breaking, and many more according to Bullinger - see Figures of speech used in the bible.


Lawyer rhetoric attempting to strip meaning from three easy to understand words: "Now I know" means now something is known that was not before.

You evade this face value intent because it goes against the grain of your previous theological bias which has no source.

Anyway, when I read that passage, the "now I know" sounds to me like an expression that was probably common at the time. The word "know" here seems to me to simply mean that God's just observed it, rather then he just realized it.

IOW, God does mean what He says - no matter how clearly it is worded.

This is exactly Satan's tactic to Eve:

Question what God said to imply He did not mean what He said = your argument.

"Now I know" means God did not know until that moment.

What is apparent is that you are inventing technical nonsense contrary to what the text says to protect a Calvinian theological bias which has no source.

God meant what He said: "Now I know....."

His omniscience is delayed until His omnipotence can arrange tests to find out what He does not know for sure.

Ray
 
God says what He means and means what He says, unless of course you have an a priori theological bias to uphold.

Are you saying that God doesn't speak to humans using language as if he was a human?

The verse above obviously implies that prior God did not know if Abraham feared Him.

I don't think the purpose of the verse is to teach us that God needs to test people to LEARN if they are obedient or not.

The word 'know', which has many meaning, including to observe, seems to entail at it's base a sense of learning though your senses.
That is why I think it "may" be understood as God has just witnessed something, rather then actually realizing something. God speaking as though he uses senses like we do is a figure of speech, known by the ancient Hebrews as "the way of the sons of man". When God's speaks about his arm, I don't think we should perceive that God has an 'arm' like we do. Similarly when he speaks about realizing something, we should not assume that God just realized something in the way that we do.

His omniscience is delayed until His omnipotence can arrange tests to find out what He does not know for sure.

Like going down to see if something has really happened or not.

Gen 18:20-21
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
(NIV)
 
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