OSAS is biblical truth.

[gr8grace]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

Lets start with Eph 2:8 for starters. John 5:24 is the dogmatic verse that Jesus spoke on this earth that pertained to the doctrine of eternal security in His word.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.â€

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly†in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen†or “Truly, trulyâ€, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly†is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

 

[Guest]

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[iLOVE]

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

The scripture means that part of us is already in heaven because of Christ being in us!

 

[Guest]

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

The scripture means that part of us is already in heaven because of Christ being in us!

Blessings. His anointing is from heaven and alive in us. Praise God, Christ be with you.

 

[iLOVE]

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

The scripture means that part of us is already in heaven because of Christ being in us!

God has united you with Christ Jesus. For our benefit God made him to be wisdom itself. Christ made us right with God; he made us pure and holy, and he freed us from sin. 1 Corinthians 1:30 NLT

Ephesians 1:11-14 NLT 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God,[c] for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own[d] by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

Just repeating and emphasizing what you have posted urk.

 

[chessman]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

Lets start with Eph 2:8 for starters. John 5:24 is the dogmatic verse that Jesus spoke on this earth that pertained to the doctrine of eternal security in His word.

If Eph 2:8 and John 5 is the best start, then Rom 11:29 seems to need some "splainin" right after that as well:

Romans 11:29
English Standard Version (ESV)
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Free]

Unfortunately this thread highlights the common problematic practice of selecting few verses while ignoring others. This is simply not proper biblical exegesis and not the right way to come to a biblical understanding of a matter.

 

[Guest]

Unfortunately this thread highlights the common problematic practice of selecting few verses while ignoring others.

What are we ignoring.

 

[Free]

Unfortunately this thread highlights the common problematic practice of selecting few verses while ignoring others.

What are we ignoring.

Every other verse and passage that talks of salvation. But I am going to exit the discussion here as it will not be fruitful and I have neither the time nor the patience.

 

[George Muller]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

Lets start with Eph 2:8 for starters. John 5:24 is the dogmatic verse that Jesus spoke on this earth that pertained to the doctrine of eternal security in His word.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

You know it could be that those who reject the truth of salvation are just not saved? For a drowning man will always seek to pull under those who are around him. The God that knows the beginning from the end, does not go around saving people that He did not intend to save. That's just foolish.

 

[Guest]

Unfortunately this thread highlights the common problematic practice of selecting few verses while ignoring others.

What are we ignoring.

Every other verse and passage that talks of salvation. But I am going to exit the discussion here as it will not be fruitful and I have neither the time nor the patience.

No worries, what scriptures should we be aware of. If you don't have patience now, log off and get into his word and come back. Blessings.

 

[Yodas_Prodigy]

You are not your own. You were bought with a price. You are adopted.

 

[Eventide]

For any here that would believe and teach others that a born again Christian can lose their salvation... I'd like to hear about it happening to you.

I find it painfully strange that it has never happened to these people who don't believe in the eternal security of our Lord Jesus Christ. They swear that a person can lose it, and can often talk about situations with others, but it's never about themselves losing it.

Strange indeed..

So if you're out there... tell us how you lost your salvation.

Did you get it back ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

The argument is not that God will not toss believers into the lake of fire. He will toss those who never believed, or who stopped believing into the lake of fire. The evidence of their lack, or loss of faith being their sinful lifestyles.

OSAS has to prove that it is impossible to stop believing once a person does believe. That is the thrust of the argument. Or, when OSASer says you can even stop believing and still be saved, OSAS has to prove that having faith is not an ongoing condition for salvation.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

What OSASer's don't pay attention to is the condition of believing that accompanies the various verses about eternal security they use to defend their doctrine.

Jesus said the one who believes is the one who has eternal life and does not come into judgment and has passed from death to life. Somehow this came to be understood that one can stop believing and what Jesus said is still true, that you will still have the sure promise of salvation.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

Entirely true...if you keep on 'having faith', a.k.a. 'believing'.

It's one thing to know something is true. That is what the gift of faith is--to know that something is true. It's another thing to believe, putting your trust in that which God has shown you to be true through the gift of faith.

Many people reject that which the Holy Spirit convicts them about is true. Some accept what the Spirit shows them to be true about the gospel and repent, but eventually return to their unbelief. OSAS will say one of two things about this: 1) They were never really saved to begin with, or closely related they'll say 2) it's impossible to stop believing. But, interestingly enough, some OSASer's will say the person who does that--stops believing--is still saved anyway, because that's how gracious and undeserved and utterly independent of what we 'do' salvation is. That's a horrible distortion of grace. Jesus himself said the 'work' of man is to believe. Paul contrasts this 'work', the work of having faith, with all other righteous work. The only 'work' that can secure a declaration of righteousness is the 'work' of believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For any here that would believe and teach others that a born again Christian can lose their salvation... I'd like to hear about it happening to you.

I find it painfully strange that it has never happened to these people who don't believe in the eternal security of our Lord Jesus Christ. They swear that a person can lose it, and can often talk about situations with others, but it's never about themselves losing it.

Strange indeed..

So if you're out there... tell us how you lost your salvation.

Did you get it back ?

There are those testimonies among some in this forum.

But the point is, the Bible talks about the loss of faith and what happens when that happens. A person doesn't have to lose his faith to know that OSAS is not Biblically supported since the Bible itself talks about what will happen if you lose your faith.

 

[Eventide]

There are those testimonies among some in this forum.

I hope to hear from them... did they get it back ?

That's rhetorical because it's impossible to be saved again as it crucifies Christ again... that coupled with the fact that a person can only die twice.

But the point is, the Bible talks about the loss of faith and what happens when that happens. A person doesn't have to lose his faith to know that OSAS is not Biblically supported since the Bible itself talks about what will happen if you lose your faith.

IMO the point is show me the reality of it..

We know it's possible to grieve the Spirit and to even quench the Spirit... although all who are truly His are SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption, and unto the praise of his glory.. unless of course the word of God doesn't mean what it says plainly.

How about you ?

You believe that you can lose your salvation ?

How long have you been in Christ ? In that time have you lost it ?

 

[George Muller]

For any here that would believe and teach others that a born again Christian can lose their salvation... I'd like to hear about it happening to you.

I find it painfully strange that it has never happened to these people who don't believe in the eternal security of our Lord Jesus Christ. They swear that a person can lose it, and can often talk about situations with others, but it's never about themselves losing it.

Strange indeed..

So if you're out there... tell us how you lost your salvation.

Did you get it back ?

There are those testimonies among some in this forum.

But the point is, the Bible talks about the loss of faith and what happens when that happens. A person doesn't have to lose his faith to know that OSAS is not Biblically supported since the Bible itself talks about what will happen if you lose your faith.

The overwhelming warnings of scripture that relate to departing from faith are made to those who turn back to the law. "for the law is not of faith" And I challenge any believer that attempts to cast doubt on the salvation of other believers who struggle with doubts. For are not called as brothers and sisters in the Lord to "unsave" those who struggle but to encourage and lift up the faith of those who have struggles. This whole idea of uses other believers doubts to cast "doubt" upon their salvation, is "so" unbiblical and ungodly that it makes me wonder at the heart and intention of some who practice such evil?

 

[JLB]

If all the verses that are used for conditional security are truly showing Christians that God will toss believers in the lake of Fire. Then will conditional security adherents please disprove all the eternally secure verses?

Lets start with Eph 2:8 for starters. John 5:24 is the dogmatic verse that Jesus spoke on this earth that pertained to the doctrine of eternal security in His word.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word, and believes Him Who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

You have been saved, however what will be true at the end of your life and faith...

For it is written, the end of you faith is the salvation of your soul, NOT the beginning of your faith, the end of your faith.

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

And again -

23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:23

... Those who endure to the end will be saved.


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

... Believes in Him who sent Me.

Believes here means to obey.

Those who do the will of My Father in heaven will enter...

Why do you call me Lord and not do what I say...


There's a whole lot of life to live between a person's initial salvation experience and the end of their life.

Believe all of His word, fear and tremble, humble yourself and be quick to repent, pray often, obey Him when He ask's you to do something.

Love God and your neighbor.

If you continue in these things, you will do well.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This whole idea of uses other believers doubts to cast "doubt" upon their salvation, is "so" unbiblical and ungodly that it makes me wonder at the heart and intention of some who practice such evil?

I don't know how someone could have the audacity to say this about the authors of the Bible.

They don't do it to destroy people. They do it to make us soberly assess whether we really have the unseen Holy Spirit or not.

The way you can tell if you are a 'planting of God' and have the Holy Spirit is by the fruit of the Spirit.

"33 “...the tree is known by its fruit." (Matthew 12:33 NASB)

So this isn't about 'unsaving' people. This is about making sure people know they have the Holy Spirit. The church is chock full of people who claim to have a relationship with God but who show no evidence of that. This forum has them, too. Biblically we can discern for ourselves whether we're dealing with a believer or not by how they treat us in the forums.

Which raises another point. Jesus talked about what will happen to the servant who, while waiting for the Master to return, begins to eat and drink and get drunk and beat his fellow servants. His end was not good. OSAS says he's as good as gold. Jesus said he was cast out to the place of weeping and the gnashing of teeth, the fiery furnace. Jesus did not warn us that way to 'unsave' us. That is ridiculous. He warned us so we can be prepared, and STAY prepared, for the Day of his return and AVOID the fiery furnace of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:42-51 NASB)

How's that for a Sunday morning cup of coffee to wake you up?

 

[gr8grace]

Unfortunately this thread highlights the common problematic practice of selecting few verses while ignoring others. This is simply not proper biblical exegesis and not the right way to come to a biblical understanding of a matter.

A denial is just that .....a denial. But it in no way proves or helps your point.

A few verses are selected to get to a proper conclusion.

I have seen that none in your camp will just deal with verses that out right point to eternal security. just deny them, which does nothing for your position.

what say you about the 2 verses that are mentioned and explained? Eph 2:8 and John 5:24. We will go on to other great verses that others have already mentioned later.