OSAS....Not !

[Jay T]

Does the following Bible verse sound like, "Once Saved, Always Saved" ......
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

How about this one.....

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"

2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning".
___________________________________________________________
One has but to look at the fate of Adam and Eve....or, to Satan himself (the most perfectly created being, in all the universe) to understand that there is no such thing as, "Once Secure, Always Secure"......UNLESS....you stay secure with God's commandments, which is God's standard of Righteousness (Psalms 119:172).

Only when God takes away our freedom of choice, can anyone ever be OSAS.....and that, God will...NEVER...do !

There are conditions to having eternal life in heaven, which many want to ignore.
But, God has only to point to those who have met those conditions and say...."These people have done what I've said to do, why didn't you ?


"Once Saved, Always Saved".....is the very idea behind what Satan told Eve, in the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die".

OSAS carries with it the philosophy that a small sin, is of no real consequence.....God created man after His own likeness, free from sin. The earth was to be peopled with beings only a little lower than the angels; but their obedience must be tested; for God would not permit the world to be filled with those who would disregard His law.

Yet, in His great mercy, He appointed Adam no severe test.

And the very lightness of the prohibition made the sin exceedingly great. If Adam could not bear the smallest of tests, he could not have endured a greater trial had he been entrusted with higher responsibilities.

Had some great test been appointed Adam, then those whose hearts incline to evil would have excused themselves by saying, "This is a trivial matter, and God is not so particular about little things."

And there would be continual transgression in things looked upon as small, and which pass unrebuked among men. But the Lord has made it evident that sin in any degree is offensive to Him.

To Eve it seemed a small thing to disobey God by tasting the fruit of the forbidden tree, and to tempt her husband also to transgress; but their sin opened the floodgates of woe upon the world. Who can know, in the moment of temptation, the terrible consequences that will result from one wrong step ?
(PP, pg.60...)

 

[aiki]

Your view, Jay, doesn't reconcile together all that the Bible has to say on this matter. In fact, as someone has pointed out in the other recent thread on OSAS, your complete denial of OSAS suggests that the scriptures are self-contradicting. Is this what you're intending to suggest, Jay? If not, why not make the effort to give a viewpoint that reconciles the two positions, rather than giving the impression by your dogmatic defense of contingent salvation that the Bible supports the polarization that has occured between OSAS folk and those who believe as you do.

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Jay T]

Your view, Jay, doesn't reconcile together all that the Bible has to say on this matter. In fact, as someone has pointed out in the other recent thread on OSAS, your complete denial of OSAS suggests that the scriptures are self-contradicting. Is this what you're intending to suggest, Jay? If not, why not make the effort to give a viewpoint that reconciles the two positions, rather than giving the impression by your dogmatic defense of contingent salvation that the Bible supports the polarization that has occured between OSAS folk and those who believe as you do.

In Christ, Aiki.

Point well taken.

Sometimes two opposing viewpoints makes the reader find the one answer, that makes both opposing views harmonize with each other....such as in the case of these 2 Bible verses:
Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law".

and this one.....
Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".
Both, are true Bible verses, but seem to be saying 2 different things.

The answer, that makes both accurate and true, lies in the middle.

 

[Heidi]

Does the following Bible verse sound like, "Once Saved, Always Saved" ......
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

How about this one.....

1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"

2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning".
___________________________________________________________
One has but to look at the fate of Adam and Eve....or, to Satan himself (the most perfectly created being, in all the universe) to understand that there is no such thing as, "Once Secure, Always Secure"......UNLESS....you stay secure with God's commandments, which is God's standard of Righteousness (Psalms 119:172).

Only when God takes away our freedom of choice, can anyone ever be OSAS.....and that, God will...NEVER...do !

There are conditions to having eternal life in heaven, which many want to ignore.
But, God has only to point to those who have met those conditions and say...."These people have done what I've said to do, why didn't you ?


"Once Saved, Always Saved".....is the very idea behind what Satan told Eve, in the Garden of Eden.
Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die".

OSAS carries with it the philosophy that a small sin, is of no real consequence.....God created man after His own likeness, free from sin. The earth was to be peopled with beings only a little lower than the angels; but their obedience must be tested; for God would not permit the world to be filled with those who would disregard His law.

Yet, in His great mercy, He appointed Adam no severe test.

And the very lightness of the prohibition made the sin exceedingly great. If Adam could not bear the smallest of tests, he could not have endured a greater trial had he been entrusted with higher responsibilities.

Had some great test been appointed Adam, then those whose hearts incline to evil would have excused themselves by saying, "This is a trivial matter, and God is not so particular about little things."

And there would be continual transgression in things looked upon as small, and which pass unrebuked among men. But the Lord has made it evident that sin in any degree is offensive to Him.

To Eve it seemed a small thing to disobey God by tasting the fruit of the forbidden tree, and to tempt her husband also to transgress; but their sin opened the floodgates of woe upon the world. Who can know, in the moment of temptation, the terrible consequences that will result from one wrong step ?
(PP, pg.60...)

And how about this verse; "No one born of God continues to sin." Your interpretation contradicts that statement, Jay T. It also contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9, and Christ's words that "No one can snatch us out of his hand", 1 Peter 3-4, and Ephesians 1:13-14. So your interpretation cannot be true because the bible doesn't contradict itself.

What Hebrews means is not to take advantage of the free gift Jesus gave us because we would be crucifying him all over again! No true born again Christian would ever do that.

Again, trying to get others to doubt their salvation is from the devil. The devil tries to keep us from God. The Holy Spirit embraces our faith in God. We either have faith that we are saved or we don't. There seems to be many on this forum who do not have that faith.

We are saved by Grace. What grace means is God's mercy, not anything we can do. That is the definition of grace. Jesus saves us. We do not save ourselves! Again, Jesus saved us through his death on the cross, which cannot be taken back. Saying that we can lose our salvation is implying that we save ourselves, Jay T. Then of course, Christ died for nothing. "Ye of little faith"!

But since you doubt your own salvation, then I'll agree with you that you are not saved. Those of us who have faith, know we're saved!

 

[Heidi]

I get so tired of people who call themselves Christians but do not believe that Jesus paid the price for our sins! What do you think he suffered and died for? The fun of it? Do you not realize the sacrifice he made for you? If our salvation depends on works, then as Paul says, Christ did die for nothing!

All you have to do is believe that Jesus took all of your sins with him on the cross & you are saved! That's it! That breeds incredible thankfulness & love to the point of giving your whole life up for him. Do people really think they can ever be good enough to get to heaven on otheir own? Such arrogance. God's love is not conditional. Christianity isn't about us, it's about God and how loving He is, not how loving we are.

 

[Heidi]

We are saved by Christ's death on the cross. That's how we are saved. That's the only way we are saved. Not through our own effort or desire, good works, wonderful ntaure, but because Jesus died for us. He took all of our sins with him on the cross. He did it voluntarily. It had nothing to do with our good works. If we know that Jesus took our sins with him on the cross, then we will become thankful & grateful for the rest of our lives. But if we have doubt about it, then we will doubt the rest of our lives.

So since Jesus saved us through his death, then how can that salvation ever go away when it had nothing to do with our works? :o It's impossible because his death can never be taken back. "It is finished." Do you believe that? If so, then you are saved. If not, then you are not saved.

Trying to get those of us who know we can never be snatched out of Christ's hands to doubt our salvation won't work, Jay. We have faith. Faith breeds hope, joy, love, patience, & self-control which are the fruits of the spirit. Fear & doubt are from the devil. :evil:

 

[Gary]

PERSEVERANCE

GOD KEEPS HIS PEOPLE SAFE

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. ROMANS 8:30

Let it first be said that in declaring the eternal security of God’s people it is clearer to speak of their preservation than, as is commonly done, of their perseverance. Perseverance means persistence under discouragement and contrary pressure. The assertion that believers persevere in faith and obedience despite everything is true, but the reason is that Jesus Christ through the Spirit persists in preserving them.

Scripture emphasizes this. John tells us that Jesus Christ, the Good Shepherd, is under promise to his Father (John 6:37-40) and to his sheep directly (John 10:28-29) to keep them so that they never perish. In his high-priestly prayer before his passion Jesus asked that those whom the Father had given him (John 17:2-9 John 17:24) would be preserved to glory, and it is inconceivable that his prayer, which still continues (Romans 8:34 Hebrews 7:25), will go unanswered.

Paul sees the sovereign plan of God for the salvation of his elect as a unitary whole, of which the glorifying of the justified is part (Romans 8:29-30). On this basis he builds the triumphant peroration of Romans 8:31-39, in which he celebrates the present and future security of the saints in the almighty love of God. Elsewhere he rejoices in the certainty that God will complete the “good work†that he began in the lives of those Paul addresses (Philippians 1:6 1 Corinthians 1:8-9 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 2 Thessalonians 3:3 2 Timothy 1:12 2 Timothy 4:18).

• Reformed theology echoes this emphasis. The Westminster Confession declares, They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved. (XVII.1)

The doctrine declares that the regenerate are saved through persevering in faith and Christian living to the end (Hebrews 3:6 Hebrews 6:11 Hebrews 10:35-39), and that it is God who keeps them persevering. That does not mean that all who ever professed conversion will be saved. False professions are made; short-term enthusiasts fall away (Matthew 13:20-22); many who say to Jesus, “Lord, Lord,†will not be acknowledged (Matthew 7:21-23). Only those who show themselves to be regenerate by pursuing heart-holiness and true neighbor-love as they pass through this world are entitled to believe themselves secure in Christ. Persevering in faith and penitence, not just in Christian formalism, is the path to glory. To suppose that believing in perseverance leads to careless living and arrogant presumption is a total misconception.

Sometimes the regenerate backslide and fall into gross sin. But in this they act out of character, do violence to their own new nature, and make themselves deeply miserable, so that eventually they seek and find restoration to righteousness. In retrospect, their lapse seems to them to have been madness. When regenerate believers act in character, they manifest a humble, grateful desire to please the God who saved them; and the knowledge that he is pledged to keep them safe forever simply increases this desire.

Source: Concise Theology - A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs - J.I. Packer (Chapter: Perseverance)

• 
  James I. Packer is a professor of theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, and is a senior editor of Christianity Today. An ordained Anglican minister, he holds the D. Phil. from Oxford University. Dr. Packer’s many published works include the best selling Knowing God.

 

[Gary]

True believers lose REWARDS.... not SALVATION!

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NIV) For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss (of reward); he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

2 Timothy 4:7-8 (NIV) 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that dayâ€â€and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

So let us (again) give some of the verses which promise eternal security of salvation:

John 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-28 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Hebrews 10:14 ...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:23 (gift), Romans 8:30 (calling) and Romans 11:29 (irrevocable) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. ....and those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. ....for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionâ€â€to the praise of his glory.

Philippians 1:6 ...being confident of this, that he (God) who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

2 Timothy 2:13 ...if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

2 Timothy 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 1:5 ...who through faith (we) are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Jude 1:24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Thank You Lord Jesus. Maranatha!

 

[SputnikBoy]

He (Jesus) took all of our sins with him on the cross. He did it voluntarily. It had nothing to do with our good works.

....So since Jesus saved us through his death, then how can that salvation ever go away when it had nothing to do with our works?

Sputnik: So, your obedience (good works) to God's commands (I assume you ARE obedient to God's commands?) come as a result of your faith in God, right? Or not? How do you witness Jesus Christ to others? Do you practice good deeds, bad deeds, 'so-so' deeds, or do you have the attitude of the effortless, 'ho-hum, since I'm already saved it really doesn't matter what deeds I practice as a witness to others'? HOW DOES your light shine to others, Heidi?

I sometimes think your mind is floating around somewhere between 'Lost in Space' and Disney's 'Fantasy World', Heidi. Oh, and also perhaps a little 'Bewitched' as well since you obviously feel that you have the ability as well as the entitlement to cast aspersions (spells) on others who differ with you. You tend to use the Bible as your wand.

 

[Heidi]

My good deeds come from the Holy Spirit, not from me so that I cannot boast. You, however, seem to boast about your good deeds because you think they come from you, do you not? If so, who do you think you are? Do you not realize who is responsible for your good deeds?

Why do you think love, patience, joy, hope & self-control are called fruits of the Spirit? Where do you think our light comes from? Do you even know who God is and what he provides for you? If you did, you wouldn't ask such questions! I witness here every single day, volunteer at my church, nursing homes, for Hospice, & witness to people about Christ everyday. In fact, I consider that the most important thing in life. And that certainly doesn't come from my wonderful nature, loving heart, & superior intelligence. It comes from the Holy Spirit inside of me.

I suggest you read the whole NT and see to whom Paul gives the credit for his goodness. I can assure you, he doesn't give it to himself!

 

[SputnikBoy]

My good deeds come from the Holy Spirit, not from me so that I cannot boast.

Sputnik: I've never intended for you to boast your good works, Heidi. I've merely asked how your good works, through your faith, are manifested since your previous responses have been so vague. And, maybe I have got it wrong, but surely the workings of the Holy Spirit take SOME concerted effort on your part. I mean, you're not a 'robot' controlled by the HS, are you? Surely you can still choose to do or not do something? Influenced by the Holy Spirit, sure, but not 'under the control' of the HS.

Heidi: You, however, seem to boast about your good deeds because you think they come from you, do you not? If so, who do you think you are? Do you not realize who is responsible for your good deeds?

Sputnik: I've never told you or anyone else on this forum what deeds (whether good or bad) I may do or not do. So, where and how am I boasting? I do know that any decisions or choices I make come from me and not from some other source. Having said that, the power from that other source (the HS) may well result in any good works that I may do. Likewise, the power from another source (Satan or 'the world') may well result in works that are not so good. I'm the one in control of my own mind and I still very much have the ability to make choices whether good or bad.

Heidi: Why do you think love, patience, joy, hope & self-control are called fruits of the Spirit? Where do you think our light comes from? Do you even know who God is and what he provides for you? If you did, you wouldn't ask such questions!

Sputnik: Do you know how long I've been a Christian? Do you know the 'level' of 'Christianity' that I'm at? No, you don't. And yet, because you perceive me as being at a lesser level than you, you are personally questioning my own professed Christianity. You will win few to Jesus with that superior attitude, Heidi. Additionally, you might also cause other 'weaker' brothers and sisters to doubt their own salvation. I mean, I thought that I was saved until you implied that I'm not. Does this not counter the very argument that you're putting forth?

Heidi: I witness here every single day, volunteer at my church, nursing homes, for Hospice, & witness to people about Christ everyday. In fact, I consider that the most important thing in life. And that certainly doesn't come from my wonderful nature, loving heart, & superior intelligence. It comes from the Holy Spirit inside of me.

Sputnik: So, what you're saying is that you are not personally responsible for your own actions or decisions, that you couldn't reject the Holy Spirit even if you wanted to? Hmmmm, interesting. In any event, it's good that you do the above good works. It does appear that the Holy Spirit influences at least some of the things you do.

Heidi: I suggest you read the whole NT and see to whom Paul gives the credit for his goodness. I can assure you, he doesn't give it to himself!

Sputnik: To whom does he give the credit for his 'badness'? You seem to have surpassed Paul in your Christianity, Heidi. Check out Romans 7. Then again, Paul can be so utterly confusing that it's no wonder Peter said in 2 Peter 3:16, "His (Paul's) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

I personally have come to the conclusion that there are so many ambiguities in Paul's writings that one is hard pressed to make a doctrine out of them. And yet, you use Paul at every opportunity, Heidi, even though he can appear to contradict himself (and give an opposite view on an issue) in another chapter. Paul is scripture but we need to be very mindful as to where he's coming from. We also need to be very mindful that he was a mere mortal, just like us. While 'influenced' by the Holy Spirit, he was not 'controlled' by the HS either. As far as I know, Jesus was the only perfect person. This means that we have to view Paul as NOT having been perfect.

 

[Ajax 777]

...Or, you could just say "No!" to the doctrinal debates and simply be content with the spiritual milk God gives to those who hunger for it and thirst for it, so that your food is the Good kind....

Leave arguments for those who believe winning them is the same as winning souls to Christ. Maybe they're right, on the other hand....

Oh, blather. What was my point again? Doggone it, I was sure I had one this time... :

 

[Heidi]

There's some truth to what you're saying, Ajax. The truth is the truth regardless of what people believe about it. But any interpretation that gives human beings the credit for the good in them is from the devil because it comes from the sin of pride, not humility wich is a fruit of the spirit.

When addressed by the rich man as "Good sir", Jesus replied; "Why do you call me good?" "No one is good but God alone." He also says; "I can do nothing without my Father." That perfect man gave complete credit for anything good in him to his Father, not to himself. Jesus was the most humble man whoever lived and is supposed to be the Christian role model. "He who exalts himself will be humbled." Jesus glorified God and for that reason God glorified His son."

Paul also gives complete credit to God for his conversion & belief. Paul did not wake up one day and say; "Gee, I think I'll become a Christian today." Paul was zapped by the Holy Spirit which changed his whole life. Yes indeed, the Holy Spirit is definitely stronger than the devil. We are all ruled by the devil or the Holy Spirit. None of us is above either one.

 

[cj]

True believers lose REWARDS.... not SALVATION!

Isn't that wonderful and yet sad, all at the same time?

Kinda like when we look at the cross.

How consistent is our God.


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

Sputnik,

If you are blind & someone heals you & opens your eyes, do you think you are responsible for your ability to see? :o That is what it's like to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnik,

If you are blind & someone heals you & opens your eyes, do you think you are responsible for your ability to see? :o That is what it's like to be born again of the Holy Spirit.

Sputnik: Then don't be so hard on those you perceive as being still blind. According to you, that is most people on this forum. I'm not mad at you, by the way, I just like debating these issues with you.
:smt014

 

[dcookcan]

This OSAS belief can be compaired to "Once Married Always Married". After all, we are (supposed to be) the Bride of Christ.

If I, a married man, have sex with another man's wife, is it still adultery if I am thinking about my wife while doing it? Would my wife accept that I was still in love with her because I was thinking about her while having sex with someone else? Would she have the right to divorce me?

This scenario, while absurd, is exactly what proponents of OSAS are trying to promote. God can divorce us, just as he did with the Israelites who chased after other gods.

If you say you love Him and do not keep His commandments, you are a lier and the truth is not in you.

 

[hopefearmercy]

hmm


Hello,

remember that if you divorce as well....and you remarry, it is committing adultry according to the bible....

hopefearmercy

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Yes like the woman at the well with 7 husbands. It's true - once married always married according to God.

 

[Jay T]

This OSAS belief can be compaired to "Once Married Always Married". After all, we are (supposed to be) the Bride of Christ.

If I, a married man, have sex with another man's wife, is it still adultery if I am thinking about my wife while doing it? Would my wife accept that I was still in love with her because I was thinking about her while having sex with someone else? Would she have the right to divorce me?

This scenario, while absurd, is exactly what proponents of OSAS are trying to promote. God can divorce us, just as he did with the Israelites who chased after other gods.

God..DOES NOT....ever leave us.
It is we who leave Him....thru some sin we commit !
Isaiah 59:2 "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear".
[quote:9e1c9]
If you say you love Him and do not keep His commandments, you are a lier and the truth is not in you.

[/quote:9e1c9]This the secret of satan's success, in the control of the modern Christian world, at the present time (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).