The stoning of Stephen was the fall of Israel?
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OSAS The Truth
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
The stoning of Stephen was the fall of Israel?
Ok, I will take you through this step by step, if at any point you decide what is being presented is not true then please address the point you believe to be untrue, with an explanation as to why.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
...believe and be saved.
Believe = Saved
The way salvation is obtained is believing.
True or False ?
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
These who believed... For a whole were in fact saved...for a while.
Believing = Being Saved
Unless you believe: Believing = Not being saved, which is the opposite of what Jesus just taught us in the previous verse.
Lest they should believe and be saved...
Please share why you don't believe that if someone believes, there are not saved.
JLB
LovethroughDove
Member
The way I read it, is that we are assured...........but don't get cocky. Scripture leaves room for more than one scenario. Some are probably a for sure deal, some are a work in progress, some think they are....but aren't. Just look at the churches in Revelation 2 & 3
It will be my pleasure.
Absolutely true. And please don't ignore the aorist tense that Jesus used here. The emphasis is on a point in time. No concept of continuing to believe, as your view purports. So Luke 8:12 actually refutes your view.
Here is where your view falls apart. You continue to think that salvation is based on continuing faith, in spite of Jesus' use of the aorist tense in v.12. In Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he must do to be saved, Paul also used the aorist tense for "believe". No concept of continuous action at all. And Paul used the future tense for "will be saved".
No, not "being" saved, as in an ongoing process. But saved as in already saved.
This is confused. What does "Believing = Not being saved" mean?? In any case, it is not true. Everyone who believes HAS been saved. Jesus did not even come close to saying that one could believe but not be saved. But since your view has been shown to have already fallen apart, this is just more evidence of it.
Right. The moment in time (aorist tense) one believes they ARE saved. Not "being" saved.
Since I don't believe that if someone believes they are not saved, there is no reason to share such a nutty view. It isn't my view, and I'm puzzled as to why you now think that is my view.
My view has always been that from the moment (aorist tense) one believes, they are saved permanently.
I've shared Romans 11:29 and that Paul previously defined both "called" and "gifts" in that same epistle. So please show me the courtesy of why 11:29 cannot refer back to 1:5,6,7, 8:28,30 and 5:15,17, and 6:23. Thank you.
There cannot be 2 contradictory scenarios in Scripture. Either one is permanently saved at the moment (aorist tense) of belief, or they aren't. The Bible does not promote both views. They are contradictory.
I've just shown JLB why his view is in error. And Rom 11:29 is irrefutable; God's gifts (righteousness-5:16,17, eternal life-6:23) and calling (1:5,6,7, 8:28,30) are irrevocable.
Once saved, always saved.
Once faith, always saved.
Once born again, always saved.
God's gifts and calling are irrevocable. Amen!
veryberry
Member
2 Tim 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I believe there can be 2 contradictory statements, That is why God tells us to rightly divide the word of truth. Just because they are contradictory, does not make 1 false and the other true. They are both true. Its just one was not written to you.
I think you are missing the point here.
Paul was concerned with Gospel message.
OSAS and non-OSAS is really a trivial matter that Paul tells us not to argue about.
OSAS builds up the body of Christ, non-OSAS does not.
If one believes in non-OSAS, they should keep their trivial belief to themselves so as not to divide the body of Christ since it does not edify the body in any way.
It's a matter of maturity in understanding the Word of God.
veryberry
Member
I am believer of OSAS. Romans 1-5 makes it very clear that one is eternally justified unto eternal life. The verse I quoted is a very important verse. If people rightly divide the word of truth, so much confusion would be out the door.
OSAS does build the body of Christ. which would be weak and deceiving. yesterday a brother here was quoting a scripture saying that Satan will kill the body of OSAS sinner who does continually sin because that person never came out of his sin but his Spirit will still be saved. Do you also agree with this??
This is why I haven't replied for a while, too much junk going around.
But the above post made me say something.
But the above post made me say something.
smaller
Member
There are seemingly contradictory scripture sets regarding this particular matter, OSAS vs non-OSAS. Law vs. Grace is another fine example of a similar matter. There is a scripture set for non-OSAS and they are vs. the scripture set for OSAS.
If there was not we wouldn't be having these types of conversations.
Paul does show how to sort through these matters. In both cases, OSAS vs. nonOSAS both scripture sets are true and both are fully applicable to every believer. It is the same case with Law vs. Grace.
All scripture is true. All scripture is applicable to every believer. All scripture MUST be taken personally.
But to obtain applicability of every Word of God unto life, we have to take on the scripture sets we don't like as well, and apply them 'personally.'
OSAS as a stand alone matter will not compute and was never meant to. And non-OSAS will not compute and was never meant to stand alone either.
I posted a very short dissection on how to begin to get through these matters in post #96 in this thread.
BUT by Divine Decree this matter can not be understood by the majority. The adherents will perpetually land on one side or the other of OSAS vs. nonOSAS. The same thing happens with Law vs. Grace.
There are spiritual reasons that this happens. These types of divisions and surface contradictions are meant to rip people apart.
And yes, it is designed to make us all think long and deep about our own factual conditions in this present life, which can be a bit uncomfortable to take on. Why?
Because God is both friend and enemy of all of us. God is a friend of those who do good, and an enemy to those who do evil. And yes, we ALL do evil. If you need an example look at Paul. Paul DID EVIL by his own admissions.
Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
And again, there are reasons for this and ways to get through it and past it in understandings in order to not LET that evil RULE over us. We are not meant to JUSTIFY THE EVIL WE DO under Grace or under OSAS. That is where OSAS utterly fails.
To do battle is to be properly armed first. Our enemy is not easy to take on because our own enemy is in close proximity to each of us, personally.
Only honest believers will get past the scriptural guards that God Himself has placed.
Others are slated to wallow in confusions, landing on one side or the other.
And for those who know why these things are, they are slated for adversity by both sides of such arguments when the facts come forth.
And this too is by Divine Decree.
J
Jesse
Guest
I have posted scripture in this thread to disprove OSAS, but it seems people don't like to discuss those verses that appear to support NOSAS. I have posted a couple of verses in John 15 that claim that if a branch that has been grafted in (gentiles) does not bear fruit, it will be cut off and burned in fire. If this doesn't mean a person, who was once saved, can be cut off, then tell me what it means?
John 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
smaller
Member
To fast track accurate sight here is the simplicity, from scripture, again:
Paul had evil present with him. Romans 7:21
Paul defined the sin that indwelt him as NOT I, twice no less in Romans 7:17-20
We should also see that it was the sin that indwelt Paul that MADE Paul do evil by his own admissions. Was Paul actively engaged in doing evil exterior actions? I do not believe this is the case.
Nevertheless Paul DID evil. Jesus tells us clearly that EVIL THOUGHTS defile us. Yes, Paul DID do that kind of EVIL. We all do. Those who say they don't are not honest or truthful. They do not have the Spirit of Truth. Jesus Is TRUTH and those who have His Spirit tell the TRUTH. They do not lie about having evil thoughts. They do not cover up evil thoughts. They do not seek to justify evil thoughts. They do not heap grace upon their evil thoughts. They condemn them as they rightfully should. They EXPOSE this reality about themselves.
So, let's examine that source of EVIL with Paul.
Paul defined himself as the chief of sinners in 1 Tim. 1:15. One might think that Paul would be one of the LEAST sinners on the planet at the time, but Paul did NOT define himself that way after salvation. He clearly stated I AM the chief of sinners, present tense.
Why is that?
It is somewhat easy to see that a warrior of and for the Gospel WILL come under internal attack by the TEMPTER internally. This is just a fact as anyone who tries and does good should know.
How then could Paul be the CHIEF of SINNERS? Because he understood the actions of the TEMPTER transpire within, that is IN THOUGHT, where EVIL THOUGHTS come from.
Who then was the chief of sinners? It was not just a matter of Paul, but also a matter of INTERNAL temptation of the TEMPTER. We could have all looked at Paul as a flesh man, a human being and we would have all seen JUST PAUL. Paul did not see himself that way. Paul saw himself accurately as himself with evil present with him, with sin indwelling him that was NOT HIM. With EVIL thoughts, which was the EVIL he did assuredly do. It was Paul and it was the TEMPTER within Paul.
In that same light we ALL should be quick to understand that these matters are not just and only about PAUL.
Paul explains this in even more detail in 2 Cor. 12:7
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
If you see just Paul in that statement what can I say? It wasn't. There was Paul. There was a special messenger of Satan, that is A DEVIL, in Paul's own flesh. That messenger is shown here in the form of TEMPTATION:
Galatians 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Yes, Paul, just like ALL of us was VEXED with internal temptation, put upon him, within his flesh, by that messenger of SATAN.
We should not see just and only Paul. We should not blame Paul. We should not count sins against Paul. We should not say Paul could not have been saved.
There is no amount of any kind of scriptural justification that can make the messenger of Satan, the EVIL PRESENT with Paul justified or saved. It was not possible for Paul to do that either. We can NOT justify the evil present with us. We can not make it behave. We can not exercise certain rituals and do certain practices to EVER justify the evil present within us.
That EVIL PRESENT is of the DEVIL.
No, non-OSAS can not justify the evil present within any person. Neither can OSAS.
Both positions are simply ROTTEN at the core because the holders are not honest with themselves.
Is the evil present going to be under Grace? Never!
Is the evil present going to be LEGAL? Again I say Never!
And therein lies the dilemma of FAITH.
Is the evil present ever in faith or faithful? Again, NEVER.
We all struggle with what Paul terms that evil present, that wicked one. It is the children of the flesh. It's the identical problem that Israel had.
There is simply no way to justify the evil present within any of us because it is of the Tempter (or his assigns to each of us.)
Paul again shows this in Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
This is NOT talking about 'some other person.' It is our own struggle with the children of the flesh. The Tempter and his messengers. Our OWN EVIL thoughts and ACTIONS.
These can NEVER be justified under Law or under Grace. Even while Paul was under Grace, the messenger of Satan WAS NOT!
Abraham had two external flesh sons. Isaac and Ishmael. This is an allegory as well. Abraham also had TWO SONS within himself in the spiritual sense. That would be the Temptation of the TEMPTER, his internal ISHMAEL. That is what that account is meant to convey.
Ishmael could never be justified into the household of Israel. It was not possible.
Neither can the Tempter or his messengers be justified in the Israel of GOD.
Now, let's get busy and DENY.
Paul had evil present with him. Romans 7:21
Paul defined the sin that indwelt him as NOT I, twice no less in Romans 7:17-20
We should also see that it was the sin that indwelt Paul that MADE Paul do evil by his own admissions. Was Paul actively engaged in doing evil exterior actions? I do not believe this is the case.
Nevertheless Paul DID evil. Jesus tells us clearly that EVIL THOUGHTS defile us. Yes, Paul DID do that kind of EVIL. We all do. Those who say they don't are not honest or truthful. They do not have the Spirit of Truth. Jesus Is TRUTH and those who have His Spirit tell the TRUTH. They do not lie about having evil thoughts. They do not cover up evil thoughts. They do not seek to justify evil thoughts. They do not heap grace upon their evil thoughts. They condemn them as they rightfully should. They EXPOSE this reality about themselves.
So, let's examine that source of EVIL with Paul.
Paul defined himself as the chief of sinners in 1 Tim. 1:15. One might think that Paul would be one of the LEAST sinners on the planet at the time, but Paul did NOT define himself that way after salvation. He clearly stated I AM the chief of sinners, present tense.
Why is that?
It is somewhat easy to see that a warrior of and for the Gospel WILL come under internal attack by the TEMPTER internally. This is just a fact as anyone who tries and does good should know.
How then could Paul be the CHIEF of SINNERS? Because he understood the actions of the TEMPTER transpire within, that is IN THOUGHT, where EVIL THOUGHTS come from.
Who then was the chief of sinners? It was not just a matter of Paul, but also a matter of INTERNAL temptation of the TEMPTER. We could have all looked at Paul as a flesh man, a human being and we would have all seen JUST PAUL. Paul did not see himself that way. Paul saw himself accurately as himself with evil present with him, with sin indwelling him that was NOT HIM. With EVIL thoughts, which was the EVIL he did assuredly do. It was Paul and it was the TEMPTER within Paul.
In that same light we ALL should be quick to understand that these matters are not just and only about PAUL.
Paul explains this in even more detail in 2 Cor. 12:7
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
If you see just Paul in that statement what can I say? It wasn't. There was Paul. There was a special messenger of Satan, that is A DEVIL, in Paul's own flesh. That messenger is shown here in the form of TEMPTATION:
Galatians 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Yes, Paul, just like ALL of us was VEXED with internal temptation, put upon him, within his flesh, by that messenger of SATAN.
We should not see just and only Paul. We should not blame Paul. We should not count sins against Paul. We should not say Paul could not have been saved.
There is no amount of any kind of scriptural justification that can make the messenger of Satan, the EVIL PRESENT with Paul justified or saved. It was not possible for Paul to do that either. We can NOT justify the evil present with us. We can not make it behave. We can not exercise certain rituals and do certain practices to EVER justify the evil present within us.
That EVIL PRESENT is of the DEVIL.
No, non-OSAS can not justify the evil present within any person. Neither can OSAS.
Both positions are simply ROTTEN at the core because the holders are not honest with themselves.
Is the evil present going to be under Grace? Never!
Is the evil present going to be LEGAL? Again I say Never!
And therein lies the dilemma of FAITH.
Is the evil present ever in faith or faithful? Again, NEVER.
We all struggle with what Paul terms that evil present, that wicked one. It is the children of the flesh. It's the identical problem that Israel had.
There is simply no way to justify the evil present within any of us because it is of the Tempter (or his assigns to each of us.)
Paul again shows this in Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
This is NOT talking about 'some other person.' It is our own struggle with the children of the flesh. The Tempter and his messengers. Our OWN EVIL thoughts and ACTIONS.
These can NEVER be justified under Law or under Grace. Even while Paul was under Grace, the messenger of Satan WAS NOT!
Abraham had two external flesh sons. Isaac and Ishmael. This is an allegory as well. Abraham also had TWO SONS within himself in the spiritual sense. That would be the Temptation of the TEMPTER, his internal ISHMAEL. That is what that account is meant to convey.
Ishmael could never be justified into the household of Israel. It was not possible.
Neither can the Tempter or his messengers be justified in the Israel of GOD.
Now, let's get busy and DENY.
smaller
Member
We are ALL meant to be pruned and we ALL have things that are CUT OFF by God.
Should those matters overtake any man, they are and remain pawns of the devil.
Jesus said that a bad tree can NOT bear good fruit. It is not even possible for that to happen. And none of us are just and only GOOD TREES.
The TREE of Good and Evil grows together out of the same ground of our BODY. Just as does the wheat and the tare.
J
Jesse
Guest
That is not at all what that verse says.
Jesus already talks about the branches that bear good fruit will be pruned, but the branches (that have been grafted in - gentiles) will be CUT OFF entirely if they do not bear good fruit.
The grafted in branches are given an opportunity to bear good fruit, if they fail their opportunity, they will be cut off, as to not defile the entire tree. A small amount of yeast spreads through the whole batch of dough.
How can anyone deny the verse I provided says exactly that those grafted in, who do not bear good fruit, will be cut off and thrown into the fire?
Let's hear what the Lord says, if the Lord is in you.
J
Jesse
Guest
1 Cor 6:9 Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…