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Pantheism?

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Ok, so in Acts 17 Paul describes God as "in whom we live, move and have our being." Now he was not talking to believers. How do we all live, move and have our being in Him? Is He "IN" His creation as well as separate from it? What do you think?
 

jasoncran

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faithtransforms said:
Ok, so in Acts 17 Paul describes God as "in whom we live, move and have our being." Now he was not talking to believers. How do we all live, move and have our being in Him? Is He "IN" His creation as well as separate from it? What do you think?
thats from a poet that was a stoic,not a biblical idea as they used it.
we have the lord as source and such

but he is separete from the creation, he could he destroy something is himself at the same time and not be commiting suicide.

if we take it that way then romans 1 is lie. we worship the creator not the creation.
 
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jasoncran said:
faithtransforms said:
Ok, so in Acts 17 Paul describes God as "in whom we live, move and have our being." Now he was not talking to believers. How do we all live, move and have our being in Him? Is He "IN" His creation as well as separate from it? What do you think?
thats from a poet that was a stoic,not a biblical idea as they used it.
we have the lord as source and such

but he is separete from the creation, he could he destroy something is himself at the same time and not be commiting suicide.

if we take it that way then romans 1 is lie. we worship the creator not the creation.
yes, but even if Paul was quoting a stoic, he was quoting it as truth. he would NOT have spoken anything that would encourage a lie. Also, God may be totally separate from creation. But he could also be IN creation in the sense that a songwriter is IN the song. They just are, their SPIRIT is in that song. Music always carries a spirit, worship carries the Spirit of God...worldly music carries the spirit of the god of this world.
 

jasoncran

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problem, the earth in revalation is destroyed and recreated, the sea isnt mentioned, nor is the sun.
 
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jasoncran said:
problem, the earth in revalation is destroyed and recreated, the sea isnt mentioned, nor is the sun.
yeah, but God could do that and still not harm himself. It isn't HIM in the creation exactly, HIS ESSENTIAL NATURE does not change whether this world is destroyed or not. but that doesn't mean he isn't in it at all.
 

jasoncran

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faithtransforms said:
jasoncran said:
problem, the earth in revalation is destroyed and recreated, the sea isnt mentioned, nor is the sun.
yeah, but God could do that and still not harm himself. It isn't HIM in the creation exactly, HIS ESSENTIAL NATURE does not change whether this world is destroyed or not. but that doesn't mean he isn't in it at all.
a tree has things that glorify god but he isnt "in' the tree, simply put God is omnipresent. is GOD IN hell, no he cant be as he would have to be with the damned but he can be there without being known to the lost as its written that all day and all not they are tormented before god and his holy angels. meaning that god can see the damned being tormented and yet isnt in hell per se.
 

seekandlisten

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faithtransforms said:
God may be totally separate from creation. But he could also be IN creation in the sense that a songwriter is IN the song. They just are, their SPIRIT is in that song. Music always carries a spirit, worship carries the Spirit of God...worldly music carries the spirit of the god of this world.
Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
(Gospel of Thomas)
 

jasoncran

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seekandlisten said:
faithtransforms said:
God may be totally separate from creation. But he could also be IN creation in the sense that a songwriter is IN the song. They just are, their SPIRIT is in that song. Music always carries a spirit, worship carries the Spirit of God...worldly music carries the spirit of the god of this world.
Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
(Gospel of Thomas)
the gospel of thomas isnt canon.
 

jasoncran

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seekandlisten said:
jasoncran said:
the gospel of thomas isnt canon.
So where does the disagreement lie? In what people tell you about it or what it says?
see the above arguments agianst the lord being IN hell?
omnipresent but not like the manner of the panthiestic idea . we cant worship a tree, cat or dog and expect god to be blessed.

jenn, isnt mentioning that, she is talking about how god could be seen in those things, i am saying that we have the word omnipresent for part of that and also that we can see the glory of god in all things but they point to him, not that he is like the ewya entity in the movie avatar.
 

seekandlisten

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jasoncran said:
see the above arguments agianst the lord being IN hell?
I don't think we get to set the 'rules'. I also don't think the Bible refers to any 'damned' until after 'judgement day'.

jasoncran said:
we cant worship a tree, cat or dog and expect god to be blessed.
I don't think this was what 'Thomas' was referring to.

jasoncran said:
jenn, isnt mentioning that, she is talking about how god could be seen in those things,
I think this follows along the lines of what 'Thomas' could be referring to.

jasoncran said:
i am saying that we have the word omnipresent for part of that and also that we can see the glory of god in all things but they point to him
I think the 'eastern' theists have a better definition of 'omnipresent' then our 'western' idea of it.

cheers
 
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How can you be omnipresent and not be EVERYWHERE? OMNI - ALL! PRESENT - THERE! An interesting concept. We are IN HIM, even unbelievers, in a SENSE. Of course only believers are IN HIM, but Paul is saying that all things live move and have their being IN HIM, quoting a stoic or not. So is He IN creation in some way, well, yes. The worlds are framed by His Word. How can He be separated from His Word? I would never suggest worshipping the creature instead of the creator, NEVER!!! But it's still an interesting concept to me. Just like I am IN the song I recently wrote. My energy, my spirit, God's Spirit, my consciousness...and yet if the song disappears and no one remembers it, even me, it still doesn't kill ME. I was IN the song, but the song wasn't ME.

And the gnostic gospels are NOT canon for a reason. I checked them out when I got saved because I am very open minded. But the fact is the old testament and the new testament fit together like a hand in a glove. The old testament is the new testament concealed and the new testament is the old testament revealed. Then when you read the gnostic gospels, they're coming way out of left field with eastern type philosophy that JUST isn't harmonious with the rest of the picture. They are separate, they came from a separate source, Thomas did NOT write that, and they should not be taken as the word of God under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! I studied eastern religions for years! So this is not just a "westernized" mind putting her two cents in on something she knows nothing about.
 

Sinthesis

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faithtransforms said:
Ok, so in Acts 17 Paul describes God as "in whom we live, move and have our being." Now he was not talking to believers. How do we all live, move and have our being in Him? Is He "IN" His creation as well as separate from it? What do you think?
  • Act 17:28 - For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Do a word study on "in" - Strong's G1722 - en
This should give you an idea of the ways the word can be used.
For example:

  • Mat 3:17 - And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Rom 16:12 - Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
    Rom 16:13 - Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

With 2800 occurrences in 2128 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV, an interpretation of "in" that, when applied to Act 17:28, does not do violence to the Gospel should emerge. :twocents
 

jasoncran

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seekandlisten said:
jasoncran said:
see the above arguments agianst the lord being IN hell?

I don't think we get to set the 'rules'. I also don't think the Bible refers to any 'damned' until after 'judgement day'.
that was in reference to the the lord being able to see the tormented souls, yet they are seperated from god meaning that god is present but not acessable to the damned.


I think the 'eastern' theists have a better definition of 'omnipresent' then our 'western' idea of it.

of course you would,lol the bible through a panthiestic world view. btw greek ideas(stoicism, and epicureansism aren not eastern but western unless you considered hellinistic culture fully eastern which its not)
 

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Acts 17:27-30
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(KJV)

You're right Faithtransforms, Apostle Paul was using a philosophical concept some of the Greek philosophers had in speculating about man's relationship with God. The idea of "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being..." is about our spirit in relation to God's Spirit (John 4). Our being is not just fleshy material matter. God made us in His Image, from Which there is a deeper relationship between God and man than just our flesh.

But was Paul agreeing with the ideas of Pantheism? No, for he shows that in the Acts 17:29 verse. The Pantheist believes that God dwells in all matter, like even your electric toaster. Pantheism leads to worship of the creation instead of The Creator. Pantheism tends to deny the existence of a Personal Godhead.
 

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jasoncran said:
of course you would,lol the bible through a panthiestic world view. btw greek ideas(stoicism, and epicureansism aren not eastern but western unless you considered hellinistic culture fully eastern which its not)
However, if you really got to digging, you'd discover a relationship of hellinistic culture of the ancient Greeks with eastern pagan philosophy. Pagan belief began in Babylon. But it spread to ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, the middleast, India, China, and even among the Druids in Britain and the Norsk in Scandanavia.
 

jasoncran

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veteran said:
jasoncran said:
of course you would,lol the bible through a panthiestic world view. btw greek ideas(stoicism, and epicureansism aren not eastern but western unless you considered hellinistic culture fully eastern which its not)
However, if you really got to digging, you'd discover a relationship of hellinistic culture of the ancient Greeks with eastern pagan philosophy. Pagan belief began in Babylon. But it spread to ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, the middleast, India, China, and even among the Druids in Britain and the Norsk in Scandanavia.
thats' cause they traded a lot. but the greek language its self isnt older then the early sanskrit. the minoan culture found on crete is the predecessor of the greeks,and so is the phoenicans(aka the tunics, the carthagians)
 
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veteran said:
Acts 17:27-30
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(KJV)

You're right Faithtransforms, Apostle Paul was using a philosophical concept some of the Greek philosophers had in speculating about man's relationship with God. The idea of "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being..." is about our spirit in relation to God's Spirit (John 4). Our being is not just fleshy material matter. God made us in His Image, from Which there is a deeper relationship between God and man than just our flesh.

But was Paul agreeing with the ideas of Pantheism? No, for he shows that in the Acts 17:29 verse. The Pantheist believes that God dwells in all matter, like even your electric toaster. Pantheism leads to worship of the creation instead of The Creator. Pantheism tends to deny the existence of a Personal Godhead.
Yeah, I really don't think Paul was AGREEING with the idea of pantheism. I certainly don't. I know what pantheism is and was a pantheist for YEARS. Pantheism says that creation IS God, whereas as what I am saying is that perhaps God is IN creation in some tangible way, yet certainly not in the same sense a pantheist would believe.
 

jasoncran

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he moves on the earth, seeking those that would follow him. as in the past he did that and told ezekiel that he couldnt find one to stand in the gap, thus the judgement would have to come.
 

seekandlisten

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I think the 'eastern' theists have a better definition of 'omnipresent' then our 'western' idea of it.

jasoncran said:
of course you would,lol the bible through a panthiestic world view.
In 'eastern' theism, omnipresence is defined as God is present everywhere. This is just the beginning of that statement to clarify what I meant. In 'western' theism it takes on the meaning that God is present everywhere at the same time. Do you see the difference? I don't see how you attribute this to looking at the bible 'through a panthiestic worldview' as I'm not suggesting you worship a tree but pointing out the different ideas behind the definition of what omnipresent' means of which I think the 'eastern' theists have a better grasp of conveying the meaning when you look into what they mean by their definition.

jasoncran said:
btw greek ideas(stoicism, and epicureansism aren not eastern but western unless you considered hellinistic culture fully eastern which its not)
I'm quite aware that the hellinistic culture has to do with Greek influence? Did you know that Hellinistic philosophy and Western philosophy are one and the same? Or is that what you were getting at?

cheers
 

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