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Pantheism?

Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
624
seekandlisten said:
I think the 'eastern' theists have a better definition of 'omnipresent' then our 'western' idea of it.

jasoncran said:
of course you would,lol the bible through a panthiestic world view.
In 'eastern' theism, omnipresence is defined as God is present everywhere. This is just the beginning of that statement to clarify what I meant. In 'western' theism it takes on the meaning that God is present everywhere at the same time. Do you see the difference? I don't see how you attribute this to looking at the bible 'through a panthiestic worldview' as I'm not suggesting you worship a tree but pointing out the different ideas behind the definition of what omnipresent' means of which I think the 'eastern' theists have a better grasp of conveying the meaning when you look into what they mean by their definition.

jasoncran said:
btw greek ideas(stoicism, and epicureansism aren not eastern but western unless you considered hellinistic culture fully eastern which its not)
I'm quite aware that the hellinistic culture has to do with Greek influence? Did you know that Hellinistic philosophy and Western philosophy are one and the same? Or is that what you were getting at?

cheers
I'm afraid i don't get the difference. If God is present everywhere, then He is present everywhere all the time. How could he not be?
 

jasoncran

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but that doesnt mean that spirit of god is in a tree, or dog, or other thing,only we have the trinity dwelling inside of us.

he is everpresent, but only accesable by certian means.
 

seekandlisten

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seekandlisten said:
In 'eastern' theism, omnipresence is defined as God is present everywhere. This is just the beginning of that statement to clarify what I meant. In 'western' theism it takes on the meaning that God is present everywhere at the same time.
faithtransforms said:
I'm afraid i don't get the difference. If God is present everywhere, then He is present everywhere all the time. How could he not be?
Well it's kind of hard to explain. I guess in 'eastern' philosophy they go more in depth into this concept whereas in 'western' philosophy it tends to be simply 'God is everywhere at the same time' without expanding on that meaning. Just like in the Gospel of Thomas where it says 'split a piece of wood and I am there' does not literally mean 'God' is in a tree.

For example, in Hinduism they incorporate the theory of transcendent and immanent omnipresence, the traditional meaning of the word Brahman, which defines a universal and fundamental 'substance' which is the source of all physical existence.

Like I pointed out, the simple definition is just the starting point, but I tend to agree with the wider viewpoint of 'eastern' philosophy on the subject of omnipresense as compared to simply the statement 'God is everywhere all the time'. Make any sense?

cheers
 

jasoncran

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seekandlisten faith was a former panthiest, she was also into astrology and yoga and reiki.
 
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
624
seekandlisten said:
jasoncran said:
seekandlisten faith was a former panthiest, she was also into astrology and yoga and reiki.
Interesting.
Yeah, I was all about that stuff for 15 years. I'm not sure there's even a corner of it i haven't explored, lol! So what are your beliefs? I'll send you a pm.
 

seekandlisten

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faithtransforms said:
seekandlisten said:
jasoncran said:
seekandlisten faith was a former panthiest, she was also into astrology and yoga and reiki.
Interesting.
Yeah, I was all about that stuff for 15 years. I'm not sure there's even a corner of it i haven't explored, lol! So what are your beliefs? I'll send you a pm.
The simplest way to describe my beliefs is that I am agnostic. Beyond that it gets complicated. I'm interested in your take on pantheism and yoga and such and what caused you to change your beliefs, I'm assuming your a Christian now? I sent you a pm back.

cheers
 

JamesG

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Faithtransforms

Christians tend to forget that what “non-Christians†believe about God and the supernatural sometimes is correct. Your quote by Paul is one of those times. And in their reaction to such truths, Christians too often interpret what the Bible says to mean something other than what it says. One does not have to worship something to realize that God is there, intertwined with that something.

The Law against idols is not a law against creation. It is a law against the misuse of creation wherein the creation becomes more important than the Creator who created it. It is when creation is worshipped instead of the Creator that a problem occurs. And the Creator is a jealous God in that he doesn’t want his special created people to be so deceived that it believes that the God that created and exists eternally is the non-eternal creation.

God is not jealous for himself. That would make the God of the Bible no different than the Greek and Roman Gods…exalted humans. Rather, God is jealous on our account. The worship of creation instead of the Creator is idol worship. But when one realizes that creation is more than Christianity has defined, but rather a part of God, then one has the realization that creation can’t be legitimately worshipped more than the Creator, because the Creator is so much a part of the creation. When creation is worshipped instead of God or as another God, at that point creation has become an idol, a false image that can only lead to a false understanding of both God and creation.

I don’t know why the religion of the Na’vi has taken on such a negative importance to so many Christians. It is a very positive fictional religion. They realize the unity between their God and the creation of their God. Not the same as, but unified with. And they live accordingly. And that tree, the “Eywaâ€, even the secular fans of that movie are not sure about the nature of that tree. Maybe more will be revealed in the sequel. That religion certainly is not the same as Hinduism or the New Age Movement. At least not according to what has been revealed in that movie so far. And I fail to understand why Christians who may be honest in their search for truth otherwise, make up stuff to prove that it is.

Why is God so interested in humans? Humanity is as fallen as is the rest of creation. And creation will be recreated apart from sin. Why not do the same with the humans? Perhaps because God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. And actually, humanity, the one new humanity or one new man, is a new creation in Christ.

God says that he cares about all of creation, such as in Matthew 10:29-31. why shouldn’t we care about the well being of planet earth as well? Is God really so far away that we can’t or are not supposed to imitate our living God? Whether the Father or the Son?

When God breathed into the first human, part of God became a part of the human. There is nothing in the Bible that says that the breathed in part left humanity at the fall of humanity. Rather, Paul says that when one dies, that part returns to God. When Adam was made to leave Eden, it was so he would not eat of the Tree of Life as originally intended. So this breath was not intended to make humanity eternal, only alive in a special way.

Psalms 139 makes clear how extensively God is involved with His creation. One doesn’t have to be a Pantheist to agree with that Psalm. But perhaps, due to the incessant interpretations of Christianity, knowing something about Pantheism may give one insight into the true meaning of that Psalm.

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.†(Colossians 1:15-17 NIV)

That is a reference to the Son of God, verse 13. The JW’s can only understand the first part, the created Christ. They can’t understand the last part, the Divine Christ. So verse 17 reads in the New World Translation, “also he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.†The Greek word they translate as “exist†means literally “to stand withâ€. Far cry from “existâ€. It becomes one of the few actual mistranslations in that Bible. All because of their reaction against Trinitarianism. They are unable to understand the close relationship that God, even in the Son, has with creation. And if God has such a relationship, the least we can do is to be related as much as is possible in our current fallen state.

I think that I shall never see
A poem lovely as a tree.
A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
Against the earth's sweet flowing breast;
A tree that looks at God all day,
And lifts her leafy arms to pray;
A tree that may in Summer wear
A nest of robins in her hair;
Upon whose bosom snow has lain;
Who intimately lives with rain.
Poems are made by fools like me,
But only God can make a tree.

Joyce Kilmer

One can see the all encompassing nature of God without being a Pantheist that worships the creation more than or instead of the Creator. And yet appreciate the Creation as something that is so close to God that it still reveals God even in its fallen state. We need not react so much against a truth that we fail to understand that we fail to see it for the truth that it is (Philippians 4:8). And the misunderstanding that so many have, that having an appreciation for nature and caring for nature implies that one is a New Ager or worshipping nature…well, God is not in that misunderstanding at all.

JamesG
 
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Messages
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Christian
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JamesG said:
One can see the all encompassing nature of God without being a Pantheist that worships the creation more than or instead of the Creator. And yet appreciate the Creation as something that is so close to God that it still reveals God even in its fallen state. We need not react so much against a truth that we fail to understand that we fail to see it for the truth that it is (Philippians 4:8). And the misunderstanding that so many have, that having an appreciation for nature and caring for nature implies that one is a New Ager or worshipping nature…well, God is not in that misunderstanding at all.

JamesG
Indeed, St. Francis of Assisi is a wonderful example of how a devout Christian can recognize that all of creation are "brothers and sisters", in that we all have the same Father...

The Canticle of the Creatures

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord,
All praise is Yours, all glory, honor and blessings.
To you alone, Most High, do they belong;
no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.

We praise You, Lord, for all Your creatures,
especially for Brother Sun,
who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendor,
of You Most High, he bears your likeness.

We praise You, Lord, for Sister Moon and the stars,
in the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.

We praise You, Lord, for Brothers Wind and Air,
fair and stormy, all weather's moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.

We praise You, Lord, for Sister Water,
so useful, humble, precious and pure.

We praise You, Lord, for Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night.
He is beautiful, playful, robust, and strong.

We praise You, Lord, for Sister Earth,
who sustains us
with her fruits, colored flowers, and herbs.

We praise You, Lord, for those who pardon,
for love of You bear sickness and trial.
Blessed are those who endure in peace,
by You Most High, they will be crowned.

We praise You, Lord, for Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape.
Woe to those who die in their sins!
Blessed are those that She finds doing Your Will.
No second death can do them harm.

We praise and bless You, Lord, and give You thanks,
and serve You in all humility.

In Jesus Name, Amen...
 
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